Spoiler vs. WOA, Part 2

killercane · 17-09-2006, 21:57

*****NOT FOR WACKEN*****

After prodding from Rik, we will start a new game. We had originally planned to do a Pangea map but Rik has a special Navigation map already cooked up so we will see what he has in store for us (Im sure it is evil).

Special things about this game:

I am America and Arjen is Netherlands. We pick 3 traits (no agricultural) and our UU. Originally I planned to grab Berzerks but we decided no berzerks. Neither one of us will know the civ traits or the UU of the other. It is obvious that Industrious and Commercial will be shared by both of us, but I dont know what I will pick for the third. I also dont know which UU to pick. Man o War would be good, I briefly thought about Sipahi and Hwacha, and my latest thought is that Musketeers would be pretty nice. I will decide tonight but am open to suggestions until then.

killercane · 17-09-2006, 22:01

My thoughts on traits are that industrious and commercial are a given. The next one would be scientific or seafaring. Seafaring would be nice for movement and commerce, but can it beat the 4000 beakers that sci would provide for free MA and Ind techs? And cheap libes/unis since this will be a builder game for a long time?

akots · 17-09-2006, 22:45

Militaristic is a great trait either since you get cheap both barracks and harbors if there are some minor islands around. MGL appearance chance might be of importance as well. Scientific also sounds like a reasonable trait for libraries and universities in the core cities. Of course, commercial and industrious are without question.

Tough call on UU though. MoW might be short-lived (20-24 turns to destroyers) and Sipahi are cool but still need a lot of defensive support in landing. They (together with cannons/artillery) might allow to comfortably develop up until railroads without much fear for early infantry-based invasion. But it is hard to tell how the game might develop in this case if you are banning blocking of coastal tiles.

killercane · 18-09-2006, 00:19

Yeah there is a ban on coast tile blocking. I just did the math on bonus commerce of seafaring, and even if I had 20 cities with the one extra commerce bonus it still pales in comparison to scientific. So ind, comm, and scientific I will be. This also allows me to build Colossus early without having it give a golden age.

Preliminary thoughts are to land with Infantry as they are so powerful defensively. I think I will go with Sipahi as ironclads can hold their own against MOWs if he goes that route.

bed_head7 · 18-09-2006, 01:30

I would probably take Musketeers. You saw in the last game the power of a strong defense in a landing party, and in huge stacks, Musketeers defend better than rifles. As for the trait, I would go for scientific. Seafaring probably would not help that much, as the bonus gold will not be much of a factor and the extra move probably will only shave 1-2 turns off of the arrival of a landing party, which is not as decisive as the advantage of skipping one of the bottom level MA techs.

killercane · 18-09-2006, 02:32

I took Sipahi. Musketeers are great units but I plan on developing for quite some time and upgrading to infantry. 'Teers would be good if I planned on a little bit earlier attack. If he takes those surely I can beat him off with a good stack of Sipahi, which I figure is the best defense unit for my island until tanks.

If he doesnt take MoWs I can go straight to Rep Parts come industrial, eschewing the ToE. If he goes for ToE I think it will be a critical mistake as he has nothing to defend with at that point really if he skips nationalism as well. Playing on a large map (130 x 130) and not a lot of land for each of us as Rik has indicated will mean high tech costs and possibility of slow research. This will make tech choice critical I think.

akots · 18-09-2006, 03:32

Well, landing with infantry is really not a good idea. Actually, any landing after railroads is doomed to fail imho since defender has too much of an advantage. Unless your military is really much stronger which is very unlikely to happen. The game then normally can continue to bombers (which would need carriers if your continents would be out of bomber range) or nukes and nuclear subs (which is most likely). The only way seems to be invasion prior to railroads and by choosing Sipahi as a UU, you basically are cutting this possibility off for you while, as bedhead noted, choosing musketeers would have allowed this opportunity.

killercane · 18-09-2006, 04:46

I dont know if I agree. 6 attack is the best for some time; 5 infantry to every 10 cavalry leaves only a 15% chance of victory for the Island Defender, 4 to 10 ratio makes it almost even odds, slightly in the infantry favor at 45%. Those odds get better once you add more defenders to the stack. It will be easy to gather up 80 infantry to take on 200 cavs as he is not much of an artillery builder. It is a big risk but manageable by looking at opponents' military strength. At least in theory...

Plans are subject to change of course. If it becomes a true builder game with hospitals and factories and such then everything will be reevaluated.

Another factor against infantry invasion is the distance between continents mentioned by Maarten (rik); he says we need carriers for aircraft. So reinforcements will be hard to bring to the front with no airports. And we only have one continent so no Militaristic for harbors/rax to answer Akots' earlier question.

Of course reinforcements need to be on hand to survive subsequent attacks. 90 cav->45 infantry leaves 22 defenders left, with 22 cavs with more than 1 hp left (and 32 retreats per combat calc). 32 retreats is equivalent to 8 full strength cavs, and if I assume that all his cavs are full strength (30) against the 22 2/4 (another assumption) infantry, they will survive the next turn. War weariness would be bad (instant level 4 weariness).

What does all that mean? Not real sure, and there is probably faulty logic somewhere. If I hold off until flight however and keep that 1 inf for every 2 cav ratio, I can build an airport, cover my island with airbases, and rush on in. If I let him achieve tanks that is all out the window. The only other way to do it is achieve naval superiority and be able to chain units over. Dont know what I will do. Comments and criticism welcome as I am just thinking out loud basicly.

killercane · 10-11-2006, 19:16

An update, as the game has progressed a bit. Tech costs are extremely high, and this game will take forever. As such, I will go straight for Republic and continue to build. The Pyramids should be a good boost, and I have quite a head start on them as I started with Masonry and he started with Alphabet. I moved one turn west to the wheat at the start, to work it earlier, and will probably need to abandon my capital instead of building an aquaduct but I dont know what I will do at that time. I am number 1 in most categories but it is going back and forth. I'm pretty consistently ahead in family size however.

109.81KB

killercane · 10-11-2006, 19:17

106.48KB

17-09-2006, 21:57	#1
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	Spoiler vs. WOA, Part 2 ***NOT FOR WACKEN*** After prodding from Rik, we will start a new game. We had originally planned to do a Pangea map but Rik has a special Navigation map already cooked up so we will see what he has in store for us (Im sure it is evil). Special things about this game: I am America and Arjen is Netherlands. We pick 3 traits (no agricultural) and our UU. Originally I planned to grab Berzerks but we decided no berzerks. Neither one of us will know the civ traits or the UU of the other. It is obvious that Industrious and Commercial will be shared by both of us, but I dont know what I will pick for the third. I also dont know which UU to pick. Man o War would be good, I briefly thought about Sipahi and Hwacha, and my latest thought is that Musketeers would be pretty nice. I will decide tonight but am open to suggestions until then.

17-09-2006, 22:45	#3
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	Militaristic is a great trait either since you get cheap both barracks and harbors if there are some minor islands around. MGL appearance chance might be of importance as well. Scientific also sounds like a reasonable trait for libraries and universities in the core cities. Of course, commercial and industrious are without question. Tough call on UU though. MoW might be short-lived (20-24 turns to destroyers) and Sipahi are cool but still need a lot of defensive support in landing. They (together with cannons/artillery) might allow to comfortably develop up until railroads without much fear for early infantry-based invasion. But it is hard to tell how the game might develop in this case if you are banning blocking of coastal tiles. __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)

18-09-2006, 03:32	#7
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	Well, landing with infantry is really not a good idea. Actually, any landing after railroads is doomed to fail imho since defender has too much of an advantage. Unless your military is really much stronger which is very unlikely to happen. The game then normally can continue to bombers (which would need carriers if your continents would be out of bomber range) or nukes and nuclear subs (which is most likely). The only way seems to be invasion prior to railroads and by choosing Sipahi as a UU, you basically are cutting this possibility off for you while, as bedhead noted, choosing musketeers would have allowed this opportunity. __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)

17-09-2006, 22:01	#2
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	My thoughts on traits are that industrious and commercial are a given. The next one would be scientific or seafaring. Seafaring would be nice for movement and commerce, but can it beat the 4000 beakers that sci would provide for free MA and Ind techs? And cheap libes/unis since this will be a builder game for a long time?

18-09-2006, 00:19	#4
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	Yeah there is a ban on coast tile blocking. I just did the math on bonus commerce of seafaring, and even if I had 20 cities with the one extra commerce bonus it still pales in comparison to scientific. So ind, comm, and scientific I will be. This also allows me to build Colossus early without having it give a golden age. Preliminary thoughts are to land with Infantry as they are so powerful defensively. I think I will go with Sipahi as ironclads can hold their own against MOWs if he goes that route.

18-09-2006, 01:30	#5
bed_head7 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: . Posts: 545	I would probably take Musketeers. You saw in the last game the power of a strong defense in a landing party, and in huge stacks, Musketeers defend better than rifles. As for the trait, I would go for scientific. Seafaring probably would not help that much, as the bonus gold will not be much of a factor and the extra move probably will only shave 1-2 turns off of the arrival of a landing party, which is not as decisive as the advantage of skipping one of the bottom level MA techs.

18-09-2006, 02:32	#6
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	I took Sipahi. Musketeers are great units but I plan on developing for quite some time and upgrading to infantry. 'Teers would be good if I planned on a little bit earlier attack. If he takes those surely I can beat him off with a good stack of Sipahi, which I figure is the best defense unit for my island until tanks. If he doesnt take MoWs I can go straight to Rep Parts come industrial, eschewing the ToE. If he goes for ToE I think it will be a critical mistake as he has nothing to defend with at that point really if he skips nationalism as well. Playing on a large map (130 x 130) and not a lot of land for each of us as Rik has indicated will mean high tech costs and possibility of slow research. This will make tech choice critical I think.

18-09-2006, 04:46	#8
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	I dont know if I agree. 6 attack is the best for some time; 5 infantry to every 10 cavalry leaves only a 15% chance of victory for the Island Defender, 4 to 10 ratio makes it almost even odds, slightly in the infantry favor at 45%. Those odds get better once you add more defenders to the stack. It will be easy to gather up 80 infantry to take on 200 cavs as he is not much of an artillery builder. It is a big risk but manageable by looking at opponents' military strength. At least in theory... Plans are subject to change of course. If it becomes a true builder game with hospitals and factories and such then everything will be reevaluated. Another factor against infantry invasion is the distance between continents mentioned by Maarten (rik); he says we need carriers for aircraft. So reinforcements will be hard to bring to the front with no airports. And we only have one continent so no Militaristic for harbors/rax to answer Akots' earlier question. Of course reinforcements need to be on hand to survive subsequent attacks. 90 cav->45 infantry leaves 22 defenders left, with 22 cavs with more than 1 hp left (and 32 retreats per combat calc). 32 retreats is equivalent to 8 full strength cavs, and if I assume that all his cavs are full strength (30) against the 22 2/4 (another assumption) infantry, they will survive the next turn. War weariness would be bad (instant level 4 weariness). What does all that mean? Not real sure, and there is probably faulty logic somewhere. If I hold off until flight however and keep that 1 inf for every 2 cav ratio, I can build an airport, cover my island with airbases, and rush on in. If I let him achieve tanks that is all out the window. The only other way to do it is achieve naval superiority and be able to chain units over. Dont know what I will do. Comments and criticism welcome as I am just thinking out loud basicly.

10-11-2006, 19:16	#9
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	An update, as the game has progressed a bit. Tech costs are extremely high, and this game will take forever. As such, I will go straight for Republic and continue to build. The Pyramids should be a good boost, and I have quite a head start on them as I started with Masonry and he started with Alphabet. I moved one turn west to the wheat at the start, to work it earlier, and will probably need to abandon my capital instead of building an aquaduct but I dont know what I will do at that time. I am number 1 in most categories but it is going back and forth. I'm pretty consistently ahead in family size however. 109.81KB

10-11-2006, 19:17	#10
killercane Prince Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 959	106.48KB