kryszcztov v Paalikles - OPEN THREAD

[Socrates]

NOT for Paalikles until the game is over !

1v1 PBEM #7 - [u]kryszcztov v Paalikles :</u>
version : C3C 1.22, "Ancient Mediterranean" mod v2.5j, "Mediterranean Large" map
world size : custom (loaded a random large map for world size bug purpose)
land mass : custom
water coverage : custom
climate : custom
temperature : custom
age : custom
barbarians : custom (unknown behaviour...)
player 1 - kryszcztov : Macedonians
player 2 - Paalikles : Romans
AI rivals : 6 (Persians, Carthaginians, Gauls, Assyrians, Egyptians, Goths)
AI agression : custom
available victories : all except Wonder
difficulty : Monarch
culturally linked start locations : Yes
respawn AI players : No
preserve random seed : Yes
allow cultural conversions : Yes

map made by : Thamis !

This game will be played along rules to be defined, probably close to RBCiv rules.

[Socrates]

STARTING POSITION


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So here it is, we eventually start this PBEM, after having promised it to each other for more than 2 months. We intended to use the other great mod about the Ancient Times, the GLC mod (by LBPB, a Frenchie), but it proved to be not as finished as this one. Unfortunately we can't have all the 31 civs on the map because only 8 civs are allowed in a PBEM, be it humans or AIs. Hence the map is large enough for everyone. We picked up the AI civs together, making sure it would be more or so balanced.

So you can immediately see a rather unusual terrain set (at least at CDZ) ; if I'm not mistaken, this is Rhye's terrain set, an Italian guy responsible for what I believe is a great mod, and also other stuff. I personally prefer this one over Snoopy's one (which I think was the starting point for Rhye's set), and over Warpstorm's one (by far).

I will lead the mighty (militaristic) and yet enlightened (scientific) Macedonians, the real Alex's civ ! The only drawback to this History thing is that there is no civ related to classical Greece (Athens, Sparta, Thebes...), it falls into Macedonia. There are Mycenians and Minoans, but it's not the same. Anyway in this game those 2 aren't there, so I'll be able to master the Greek peninsula without any problem.

The game is really different from the epic game : even settlers, workers and warriors have different stats ! I immediately founded my capital : Aegai. I can build : settlers, workers, warriors, archers, a slave market, and Alexander's Army (a special building for Macedonians). Now, before choosing what to build, let's have a look at the tech tree :


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Well, this is Monarch but the techs are expensive ! I know Agriculture, which allows me to irrigate (we can irrigate hills too, but mining them is less effective, it seems) and plant forests. I also know Warrior Code, which enables archers (same purpose as in the epic game) and the slave market (an improvement that increases production by 25% but decreases culture in the city by 1 point per turn (!)). My aim is to get the capital rolling so as to send settlers without being crippled while doing it. So I need to improve the capital's tiles quickly ; the thing is, I lack a worker (it's a warrior we have !!) and I can't mine, chop forests or even build roads yet ! I want to road my tiles as soon as possible, so I chose the tech called Trade, which amongst other things enables roading. Problem, I can't set science at more than 60% under Despotism. The TAM mod needs to be TAMed. I'll build a warrior first, because having a worker now is not really important (he can only irrigate, and that will effect the wheat tile only (the wine tile too after a cultural expansion).

[Socrates]

SLOOOW... MILLENIA BECOME MINUTES...

My warrior went westwards, and not longer than on turn 2 did he find a barb camp with a barb (pillager) already out of it !!! These were the Ionian Slaves.


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The pillager : 4/2/1 (5/0/2)

My warrior is only 2/2/1, so with that many hills and mountains, I put him back in the city. And he stayed there for many turns, while the pillager stayed on a mountain, observing me, unable to leave his quiet NW-SE axis. I built a warrior, which was veteran, since from now on, every land unit I would build in the capital would be veteran : the palace acts as a barracks and if possible a harbour. Both stayed in the comfy city (which means I was doing nothing in my turns), with the pillager above them. Borders expanded on turn 10 (7500BC), revealing more terrain, of which a wheat tile in the south.


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I needed units to get rid of this very early threat, so I built 2 (veteran) archers.

The archer : 4/1/1 (5/0/1), cost 20 shields, may enter mountains, is amphibious, can be upgraded to composite bowman

The veteran warrior and archers (stack of 3 units) then left Aegai, in order to attack the pillagers. I first passed the quiet one, to reach a 2nd one.


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On turn 23 I killed that 2nd barb, and on the following turn I killed the one that guarded the camp, destroying their home, and getting 25 gold from plundering. Note the pirate ship in the Adriatic Sea.


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The 1st barb had got back one tile, but now allowed my archers to fully heal. In the meantime Aegai built a worker, which started to irrigate the wheat plain : 8 turns to complete ! Workers complete their task at half their normal speed in Despotism. I then decided to kill the 1st barb on hill, because there was a 4th barb coming back from the fog, and my worker was exposed. Both my archers died to him !! I was so unlucky to lose 2 of those precious units like that. My warrior managed to kill the barb, but I was close to lose him too. This made me think of the value of this mod in PBEM : is it fair enough to allow such RNG strikes so early ? 2 units shouldn't be a blow to lose, but with the way the game is progressing (ie. very slowly), it is in fact very important not to lose your units. Here is the situation after barb #1 was killed by my brave warrior, who got promoted, and as barb #4 is heading towards my worker.


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On turn 29 I eventually discovered Trade. 29 turns to get it on Monarch ! Since I was far from meeting anyone, I set science on Tools at full speed, which according to the tech tree would allow me to mine the land. Meanwhile barb #4 was next to my worker who was protected by my standard warrior. My elite one was on a hill next to everybody. What would happen in the next scene, you need to wait !...

[akots]

IMO, it could have been better to sneak with the starting warrior as far as possible to get as many early contacts as possible without trying to eliminate the barbarians in the area. They are not actually bothering you without noaipatrol in the ini file. Besides, you'll get a few new camps after the old ones were eliminated. But that camp did not prevent you from settling the surroundings. Now, you are going to research rather redundant first-tier techs which could have been easily traded from the neighboring civs.

Good thing there is a plently of marble which is required for SoZ as well as some other wonders iirc.

[Socrates]

Yes of course, I weighed the pros and cons of eliminating the barbs. At the beginning and just before my 2 archers were killed : I wanted to go for Rome !! But knowing there was a pillager coming back from the fog on the axis, straight towards my worker was enough for me to decide to kill them all. Since those barbs can jump on hills and mountains, across the river, it would have been very difficult to kill them on offence (hey, it only occurs to me now that they have 3 hp !), and don't count on my warriors to defend well against those beasts. If you look at the pic with the pirate ship, I had already spotted barb #4 (in the fog on the pic), and I had a discussion with some CDZ friends (thanks to them, you know who you are) about how C3C barbs behave. I thought they would always choose a hill in diagonal, so that they would get out of the axis, but I feared them, so I did try to kill them. A few turns later I saw that barb #4 didn't leave the axis !! Knowing I had delayed my worker long enough, there was NO WAY to lose him ! Too bad for the delayed contacts, but those barbs severely compromised my early development... and it could have been worse.

The conclusion of this episode is that I wonder about the value of the mod in PBEM : it is really tough and can easily lead to a great difference between the 2 players. I hope Paali had more luck with barbs on his side. I know "his" camp isn't so close.

[Socrates]

YOUR MISSION, IF YOU ACCEPT IT, IS TO FOUND ANOTHER CITY

Between the 3/3 warrior who was protecting the worker and the 3/6 warrior who was standing next to them on a hill, the pillager chose to fight the latter one... and lost, leaving my warrior with 1 hp ! The area was now cleared of those Ionian barbs.


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I decided to send my standard warrior to meet people, so he started to march northwards... until he found a pack of dire wolves on a mountain on turn 31.


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The dire wolves : 1/1/2

Those could do some damage if I was unlucky in RNG strikes. I managed to pass them because of the axis bug, and my warrior was now exploring Illyria, where he found more barb camps. Meanwhile in Aegai, a settler was being trained, and on turn 38 the unit of brave men was ready to leave the place. Finally !

At this time Egypt completed their Sphinx, a personal wonder that gives them 2 techs for free and 4 happy citizens in their wonder-city. Then there was a problem. A major one. Talk about a great drawback for me here : forest tiles are not settlable !!! And I have forest everywhere around me ! I had found a good spot for city #2, it's on the forest S-S-W of Aegai, next to the wheat plains. So close to Aegai was good, since cities can't get bigger than size 8 until late in the game. Therefore I recalled my settler back to find a suitable spot. With workers being so slow and so expensive, I couldn't afford chopping a forest tile now.


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The pillager we can see below my warrior was then attracted by the settler along the axis, and I killed him on the following turn. I eventually decided myself on a decent spot, though not optimal, and found the city of Argos Orestikon on turn 45 (5750BC).


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A fucking pack of dire wolves were so hungry that they moved towards my bins in Aegai. I feared they'd destroy something important on the following turn, but couldn't help it. Meanwhile my scouting warrior was entering the Italian peninsula. My initial idea was to send the 2 archers as well, to put Paali on tough pressure, but that's lost forever.

[Socrates]

THE GRAND MEETING

The dire wolves destroyed my production, a worker almost finished. Bleh. On turn 48 the Assyrians completed their Library of Nineveh in that city precisely, a wonder doubling the science output in the city.

On turn 50 (5500BC) I eventually met Paali. This is the story of a missed opportunity.


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No Roman unit had been spotted yet. So I carried on my march to Roma, and on the following turn I saw a Roman velite (equals to archer) coming back home. So I entered the Roman territory, and on turn 52 the situation was like this :


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Aegai had just built a 2nd worker, I had just discovered Tools, enabling mining and forest chopping amongst other things. The military advisor told me I was weak compared to Paali, but there was something important to note : Paali only had Roma, no other city yet ! And the best of all : the F7 screen told me that he was building his special wonder, Military Training, which was like Sun Tzu, putting a barracks in every continental city, something great when you know that barracks aren't available before very long, except in the capital where the palace acts like a barracks. The downside for Paali was that this wonder was useless for him until he had at least a 2nd city (if you spare me the 1 culture point per turn it gives). I wanted to damage him, so I declared war and killed his velite. War happiness won't flood like in a certain other game.

Science was set on Copper Working.

But on turn 53 Paali completed his wonder, and so was ready to produce more interesting stuff from now on. And on turn 55, as I was ready to start pillaging the grasslands that took so long to mine, a Roman heroic warrior (6 hit points) showed up.


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Seeing no way out for my warrior other than fleeing, my warrior... fled away. I needed to make more contacts, and the Gallians came to mind. Now I'm thinking of how things could have been if my warrior had been accompagnied by 2 veteran archers. I would have been in position to destroy Roma (equals to Game Over for Paali), because with 2 warriors I had an average military, so there was probably only 1 warrior in his city (enough for MP at size 3 on Monarch). Fuck that other barb, fuck him.

Meanwhile my 2nd city built a worker, I needed them badly. My capital started to build veteran archers, so as to get ready to strike Paali later, and so as to reach a better size for the city. On turn 61 the wines were connected. But one question remained : at size 5 the food box doubles in size, so what is the best way to pump out settlers ?

[Socrates]

I lost all my data (saves, screenshots, log text) in my HD crash. Here is a summary of what happened so far (from my memory).

My intrepid warrior was sent to meet the Gauls, but was killed by a barb just before contact was made. This was enough for me, my only goal from now on would be to set up for a massive invasion in Roman territory.

I discovered Copper Working, and started to research Wood Working. It leads to Sailing, which enables a boat. I hope I'll have time to use it in that channel.

I now have 3 cities, the first 2 built a slave market, which increases production by 25% and gives -1 cpt. My 2nd city stays at zero culture though. My capital has been set on low food but high production : with 8 raw shields, it now gives 10 shields, which is 1 warrior per turn. Warriors upgrade to axemen (6/2/1) with Copper Working.

Paali also seems to be going for heavy military, so I hope I'm not making any mistake.


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[Socrates]

Things are moving up quicker now ! Soon after the latest pic, Paali showed up near my lands with one warrior.


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Unfortunately for him, the barbs killed it, making no damage for me, and then I proceeded to kill those barbs.

I now had many veteran warriors waiting in my cities, when I eventually connected copper. I upgraded as many warriors as I could, seven in total. They were sent to Rome via Illyria, along with 2 archers. In the meantime I founded more cities, which was quick to do with my capital Aegai at size 5. I now have 6 cities, and they're quick productive, compared to standard Civ3. I discovered Wood Working, which enables palissades, a weaker wall for small towns. I set science on Sailing.

As you probably saw in our open thread, Paali is now aware of my upcoming attack, this is because he discovered me.


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The closest Roman city is just at the bottom of the pic. This Roman warrior damaged a veteran axeman (6/2/1), but my axeman won and promoted to elite. Then I encountered a Roman velite (archer), which killed one axeman. I decided to let it stay in the back, and head to Roman estate right away. The damaged elite archer you can see almost died to barbs, so he's now behind, but he is heading for Rome as well.

[Socrates]

Paalikles is probably bragging about reducing my stack of axemen inside his territory, but that is short-sighted joy...

So my stack approached the Roman territory, but one axeman got killed on the way by a guarding velite (archer). That was just after last pic, whose warrior only hurted one axeman, who promoted to elite.

Then the stack entered Paali's lands, and I made what I now consider a mistake : I went straight for Rome, though each turn I tried to see if I could do something better. The reasons I failed to do significant damage are :
- Paali can build 40-shield spearmen (2/4/1, +1 hp), enabled by Copper Working, but which doesn't need copper ! This is to allow every civ to build decent defense even without the precious metal.
- Archers (4/1/1) (well... Roman velites) inflict damage to my axemen (6/2/1) on offense, because I don't have real defenders in my stack.
- My stack is limited in numbers !! So I should carefully chose my targets.
- Paali saw me coming some turns ago.
- Paali has barracks in every city (Roman special wonder).

I know what I should have done : go attack the first city on my way, because, even with the top defender being a fortified veteran spearman on hill, I surely had a chance to raze it with 5 axemen or so. So here is what I think was the right way to follow : use my limited threat to inflict some good damage, knowing the stack would be quickly gone. I delayed my attacks, and so Paali killed axeman after axeman with his velites and warriors... I killed some units too, so all was not lost. Here is a pic of the current situation :


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Just next to REPENT (Paali keeps renaming cities all the freaking time) lies my... stack : a 2/4 archer and a 2/6 axeman. They've just retreated from the road just east of that town. Roma was in sight (a 3/3 warrior there), but my last healthy axeman failed to kill a 5/5 spearman defending the wheat inbetween. I intend to retreat with those 2 units, so that the other 2 in the pic can meet them and attack one city. There is little chance that it works, but you never know.

Oh, I forgot that my capital built the Macedonian special wonder on turn 104, which is a SOZ-like wonder spawning one compagnion (6/3/2, +1 hp) every 10 turns. I'm building hoplites (2/5/1, +1 hp), getting cash to upgrade my last 5 warriors to axemen, and getting close to Sailling, which enables curraghs. My 3rd attack is already in preparation.

As for the 2nd attack, it is a half-failure only, because Paali stopped his expansion, and even used the whip for defense. I have 7 cities, and much greater capability... I'll harrass him to no end (told him).

I also met the Gallians at last. An archer was roaming in the Po valley. But no trade is available now.