***SPOILER*** for CFC mega Pitboss game [Archive]

Tubby Rower

14-03-2006, 22:01

My capital
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/3092/civ4screenshot00006lr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The territory that I have explored
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/1940/civ4screenshot00013yc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Those who I've met.... I haven't a clue where I met Sigma. He must have had a scout peak in and then out when I wasn't online. Peter is reportedly East of Robboo. I'm headed NE now with a warrior and suspect to meet someone else soon.
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6562/civ4screenshot00028oz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I immediately got with GeorgeOP and Robboo and developed a 3-man alliance. Hopefully we'll be able to cornfuse the others by gifting units to a warring partner without getting involved ourselves :)

Tubby Rower

14-03-2006, 22:15

I'm an idiot.... That last one is really the tiles worked ;)

According to our alliance, I'm headed for Alpha then an advanced religion since I'm the most isolated and in least danger from others. After I get Alpha, we'll all be trading like mad and should shoot up the score graphs.

I'm likely going to die off out of us three if our warring goes well. I'll be cut off pretty quick by GeorgeOP. So I'm willing to help them out as long as I can. I might be able to get a 5CC going and reduce corruption and be a science power house.

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 09:04

Hey Tubby, I noticed your spoiler is being read by "guests". Obviously that's not forbidden, but since not everyone on CFC might now the proper etiquette regarding spoilers I'd suggest you lock your forum for non-members. That way we can at least see who's reading your spoiler.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 12:56

BAh... Thanks for the advice, but my feelings on it is that if they feel the need to cheat, I'll let them. It's not that big of a deal to me whether I win or lose. I just enjoy playing. And if I can beat the cheaters, then I am KIIINNNGG OF THE WOOORRLLLD!!!!

btw, I've been conversing with George and Rob and now Rob is going after Alpha and I am going after Theology. Rob is also financial and has better land and the graphs show that he has more gpt than me. Hopefully either Rob or myself could get a religion. George is working on Iron Working now. Seeing how the map is supposed to be balanced, we all have bronze so I'm not sure whether we'll all have iron or not.

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 13:07

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

BAh... Thanks for the advice, but my feelings on it is that if they feel the need to cheat, I'll let them. It's not that big of a deal to me whether I win or lose. I just enjoy playing. And if I can beat the cheaters, then I am KIIINNNGG OF THE WOOORRLLLD!!!!

Couldn't agree more, just wanted to point it out. Good luck to you.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 13:11

Thanks.... I got a rough start at the tip of a pennisula and near the tundra. I don't have a river more than 1 tile long to take advantage of my financial trait. So I went out and made friends and have influenced people. I'll need luck to win this game. I've only had MP experience with Whomp in civ4 so I'm not sure how much that translates to these guys.

Advice is appreciated and will be considered (I'll offer semi-rational explanations if I deviate from advice).

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 13:40

First advice: you won't get friends with just words. Expect a huge SOD from George at any time. When they find out you're stuck in a corner with no more option to expand, you're doomed.

DOOMED!

So, even better, build your own SOD just to be sure.

Second advice: the key to winning in civ4 is chopping as many forests as you can. Stop building the settler for now, and build an unit to protect your worker. Send the worker/unit combo outside your territory to chop as many forests as you can before someone grabs that land. After the unit, build another worker to either chop more or improve the land around your capital, and then build the settler. I think this won't take much longer than the 12 turns you need now for finishing the settler (although I assume you're going to chop right away anyway).

Where do you want to settle first? You could build at the coast next to the corn/bronze/beaver. Beaver cities are always good ;)
It'd be good if you can somehow explore those lands more directly east from your capital.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 15:33

I already have a barracks and nothing else can be improved in the capital. I am planning on being stupid and trusting George and Rob. They can out-produce me and out-grow me right now. Rob has talked about giving me cities as they expand north and east. I'm not holding my breath on this one, but there is a little hope that Rob could help me defend against an attack against George.

I'm chopping the forest on the grassland right now and will mine the forested hill next. I should get my settler out a couple of turns after Writing comes in so that I can start on a library. My second city will include lots of beaver and bronze covered corn. I figure that I could get George and/or Rob to road to me so that trading of the 3 beavers can happen.

I'm not concerned at the moment about the worker's security. Barbs should show up soon, but I have my warrior to go take care of them and can pop-rush another if need be. I might pull my capital defense while the settler builds to explore the east and provide some protection for my future settlers.

Any thoughts on the second city's name?

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 15:36

Also, after I plant 2 maybe 3 cities, I will be able to improve them a lot quicker and fuller than George and Rob could. So I should be able to accumulate a sizeable force eventually. I just need to figure out a way to honorably get out of the alliance when it needs to be dissolved.

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 17:38

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I'm chopping the forest on the grassland right now and will mine the forested hill next.

Very bad idea. A mined hill won't give you more production than the forested hill, and valuable chopping time is spoiled with building the mine. You have to chop outside your territory.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 18:14

how far out will you still get the shields?

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 18:15

From the other side of the world, if you can get your worker there ;)

romeothemonk

15-03-2006, 19:41

You should be a total jerk and lumberjack near their cities.

akots

15-03-2006, 19:45

What R and G are thinking probably is that if you will be reasearching for them, then you would have less troops and they can kill you anytime. Also, if there is somebody to take care of their research, they can expand better and still get some occasional techs from you. This means you are doomed unless you can surprise them with some tricks. Otherwise, when they will run out of room or they notice that you are getting more military than they see fit or you are pulling some diplo strings they don;t want you to pull, they just come and kill you. They apparently believe they can do it anytime whenever they wish since you won't be able to expand normally being cornered as you are. That basically means a vassal state living under a constant threat of elimination.

A thought to consider: mine that bronze, chop as many axemen as you reasonably can handle and go rush G first. You made sure they are not going to rush you (if you trust them at least a little bit). If you do it rapidly, R would not have enough time to come to his aid or you can try to sway R to your side and make sure that this time you are the equal partners and he also has to research to remain equal in the partnership. And as Shabba said, the only way to survive is to grab as many forests as you can and chop it all as fast as you can.

But I don't know the actual situation, may be it is a stupid thought.

akots

15-03-2006, 19:49

quote:Originally posted by romeothemonk

You should be a total jerk and lumberjack near their cities.

Not sure, I think you never get enough troops especially in MP, so chop it all and then you can figure it out. For now, it might be required for survival. If you don't come to them, they would come to you.

IMHO, early in the game on a packed map, the only two things the workers are doing are chopping and building roads towards the enemy. Of course you need to hook up the resources if you need these resources.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 19:55

ok... I'm not wanting to ruin my rep too much. I might hold off until we/they start conquering someone. Then poor George might have to go first. Or I might be able to trade them some of my cities for cities on the other side of them. Then I would be out in the open. This is a tough starting location and me not wanting to be labelled as someone who won't back up his allies, makes this difficult. the civ4 MTDG at CFC is going to start soon and I am the faceplate of Team Piffle right now and I don't want that impression to be on my teammates either.

So I will have to find a way to get George or Rob to turn on the other and then somehow get that land. I've already been feigning stupidity and lack of knowledge which could or couldn't be true. I'm comfortable losing this game. But if I could win it then that would be golden.

I think that I'll likely finish the chop on the grassland then move east with the worker escorted by the warrior. After the settler build, I'll be getting another warrior or worker and start clearing the Frozen Forest to the east

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 20:15

You know, I think this would be an appropriate time to lighten this thread up with the lumberjack song. Come to think of it, the lumberjack song would be a very appropriate title song for civ4!

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 20:34

I sleep all night and I work all day

akots

15-03-2006, 21:03

Is lumberjack same as axemen? I've always seen it as basically the same thing. You either chop trees or depending on the mood, chop the enemy heads off. In general, might be a good idea for the workers to be transformed into axemen temporarily so that they can defend themselves.

barbu1977

15-03-2006, 21:24

"Melvin, Melvin
Bûcheron d'la forêt canadienne
Fort comme un boeuf, y mange des bines
Travaille toute la journée pour un trente cennes

Melvin, Melvin, Melvin
Bûcheron d'la forêt canadienne
En équilibre sur la pitoune
J'vous dit qu'y a pas l'air d'une moumoune "

Lumberjack are choping stationary targets, that must help them a bit. In Warcraft you could get your workers to figth. They were not very strong but 4-5 of them could take out a warrior.

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 21:34

Ooh, forest chopping axeman, that'd be ONE overpowered unit! But I guess an axe gets blunt very fast, not much enemy chopping afterwards I presume.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 22:34

These are the forests that I could chop. I'm guessing that it's best to get closer to George's border first?
http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/77/civ4screenshot00036lf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I swithced to a warrior then a worker. Then I'll chop a settler or two. I just hope George tries to expand east and north.
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9548/civ4screenshot00041qh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Shabbaman

15-03-2006, 22:38

Yeah, but perhaps it's better to aim for 16,15,14 instead of 4,5,6: those last ones are probably going to be in your borders soon anyway.

BTW, remember (or read for the first time ;) ) that the production bonus goes to your city closest by. So, most likely NOT your capital.

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 22:56

So until I found my 2nd city it'll go to my capital. Once I get the second city the chops could get a settler out of my second city without stopping unit production in my capital (which has a barracks)

Tubby Rower

16-03-2006, 03:33

Matrix is now a Jew. apparently he was also scaring Rob a little. Matrix had moved and kept a warrior just north of Rob's border. So that means that we might end up being Jews too. I hope we get to Confusionism. I'd rather holy city money go into Rob's pocket than Matrix's

OTOH, MAtrix might be an out for me. Rob feels as though he has enough defense against MAtrix now and will be generating some more defense. So a war might between Rob and Matrixmight be a ways off. I might be able to team up with Matrix when the time is right and hopefully take the southern part of the continent. I'm not sure how amiable MAtrix is and I think that he could kick my butt in a civ3 PBEM, but depending on the situation, I might be able to hold him off in civ4.

Stay tuned for the next episode......

Tubby Rower

17-03-2006, 00:10

I have met Matrix. So now I think that I know everyone on my continent.

Well after a little MSN chat with Matrix. Apparently there is another civ on our continent. He's playing it safe and not making friends or enemies.

He's met Dave McW and Meleager other than me. So that means the he might control a connecting piece of land since Rob or George hasn't seen those two.

romeothemonk

17-03-2006, 00:46

I would team up with Matrix and turn on the one of your neighbors.
My favorite play is the whoops attack.

Have Matriz, or the other guy declare war, wait 5 turns until the troops move, and then powie!!

Hit the weakened back lines quickly taking 1 or 2 cities. Everyone around will attack like sharks on bloody chum.

Spawning an artist really makes this effective.

Darkness

17-03-2006, 09:16

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Dave McW

I hope (for your and Matrix' sakes) that he's not as good as CIV as he is at Civ3, because if he is, you are in a huge load of trouble...

Tubby Rower

18-03-2006, 19:50

I have the worker available to go chop some forests. and the amount of hammers decrease as they move out from your border.

here are the shields retrieved by chopping the forests numbered a few posts up # 3 is actually 2 tiles

1 - 0 shields
2 - 3 shields
3N - 6 shields
3S - 10 shields
4 - 13 shields
5 - 16 shields
6 - 16 shields
7 - 16 shields

hill N-NE of FB city - 20 shields
forest 1 tile W of FB City = 20 shields

so it looks like diminishing returns as you leave cultural borders I think that I'll chop the forests just outside my borders. starting with #5

Tubby Rower

22-03-2006, 22:22

UPDATE!!!

I have discovered Writing and will have open borders with everyone I know as soon as George logs in.

The sad news of this update is that I lost my sole worker to some wolves that snuck out of the fog while my warrior guard was one tile behind. The good news out of that is that the warrior now has Woodsman II and can move 2 tiles as long as he's in the forests or jungle.

I just rushed a worker gaining extra shields from it to put toward the settler. The worker will chop a forest INSIDE my borders to help with the settler build. After the settler I need to build some military for protection against barbs and then maybe a library or a fisihing boat. Those crabs have been taunting me for some time now.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/2563/civ4screenshot00003sr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Shabbaman

24-03-2006, 17:22

Lost your worker, what a shame. I see south of George/east of you is all tundra. So expand norhwards.

Tubby Rower

24-03-2006, 17:35

Shabba, that thread "Nobody's something of the cage"... is it a spoiler for this game? I didn't want to look in case it was but I saw that you had posted in it.

Shabbaman

24-03-2006, 17:58

It's a spoiler for this pbem (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163309), so I assume it's safe.

Tubby Rower

30-03-2006, 17:52

I have open borders with all known civs & am 2 away from sailing so the money should be rolling in soon.

Here is the latest intel on what's been happening:
- Robboo has taken a worker from Peter (AI)
- Apparently rumor has it that Meleager (Romans) and Robi_D (I forget who he is) are looking for help to throw Matrix a farwell party.
- I planted a second city (A Cold Night) on the coast just NE of my capital (avoided the wolves that are there now)
- I have used the whip extensively and have the crabs hooked up for more whipping in the near future too
- the corn is getting farmed for "A Cold Night"
- as of last turn only Rob and I had 2 cities.
- Matrix planted his second city 2 tiles away from Meleager's settler and we all had a good laugh :D

I'll try to take a screenie when I get home since CDZ is available again.

Tubby Rower

08-04-2006, 16:56

Here is an update of what I can see....

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/189/civ4screenshot00011tu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/9181/civ4screenshot00024yw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I have 1 galley out headed north so that trade routes between Rob and I are opened. I'm also working on a lighthouse in A Cold Night so that I can start working those water tiles for 3 G each. I'm chopping around that city too to get another worker out. and then I'll go mine the copper.

Shabbaman

08-04-2006, 17:35

Do you have any current foreign forestry operations?

Tubby Rower

08-04-2006, 19:06

no not after I lost that worker... No more chopping outside of my borders. Plus George and Rob are moving west and north with their new settlers and I'll be able to settle that land and get the full 20 shields out of the forest instead of the diminished amount.

classical_hero

26-04-2006, 16:11

I like you calling for war with someone starting W and ending in homp. :D BTW can we have an update. [please]

Tubby Rower

26-04-2006, 17:38

I'll try to update this later tonight when I play my turn

Tubby Rower

27-04-2006, 00:36

Ok here's what's going on as far as I can tell.

Robboo has talked with Meleager and RobiD in order to get Matrix out of the game. Meleager jumped the gun and Robi D and Robboo aren't ready.

GeorgeOP is planning on taking out Kuningus (formerly Peter of Russia). I'm scouting for him since I have OB with Kuningus.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7500/civ4screenshot00086rg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

People have been trading like $2 whores as of late. Only Metal Casting and HBR are out there and not in my knowledge bank. I'm researching Currency due in 5, George is researching Metal Casting due in ~12 I think. And Robboo is researching CoL giving us a religion due in 4 I believe. George is also chopping the oracle due in 4 and plans to get Monarchy if he can.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/189/civ4screenshot00100jy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I have a pretty good relationship with everyone but am expecting to get sideswiped in the near future
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5210/civ4screenshot00093pr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And lastly here is my homeland. I have pop rushed extensively and am recovering mildly. I have plenty of food and will be getting a settler out after an axe or two have been made.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5241/civ4screenshot00046ru.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Pastorius

27-04-2006, 07:38

Now tell me this - what kind of trading do $2 whores do? Stock market?

And how do you know I wonder [hmm]

More seriously though: What negative effects are from poprushing in cIV?

(me no gamey installed, but wonders, and cannot check)

Shabbaman

27-04-2006, 08:49

Shouldn't you hook up that bronze and horses?

Tubby Rower

27-04-2006, 12:49

@ [paal], pop rushing give 1 :( but if kept small most cities can handle it done twice in a row. The number of :( gets higher if there is already :( due to poprushing.

RE: $2 Whores... I meant that the wenches were traded not that they were trading .. I really don't have a lot experience with whores so if anyone out there has any, please enlighten us :)

@ [shabba], I don't need copper (until the late game) since I have iron hooked up. It'll be hooked up last when the workers have nothing else to do. The horses will be hooked up eventually just not needed right now.

Shabbaman

27-04-2006, 12:54

Hmmm... Doesn't copper give a hammer bonus, like stone?

Tubby Rower

27-04-2006, 12:57

no except on stuff that needs wires like the Internet. Maybe for the Collossus.

digger760

27-04-2006, 15:33

copper gives double production speed on certain things..i can only think of Wonders. But you also need it to be able to build spears dont you?

Darkness

27-04-2006, 15:49

Forges will require copper too...

Tubby Rower

27-04-2006, 15:54

no I can build spears with iron I think. I'll be hooking it up soon. but there are other priorities.

Tubby Rower

02-05-2006, 12:16

I was a little scared of this alliance at the beginning but it's working out quite nicely. Robboo is helping out in taking out Matrix. George just took a Russian city from Kuningas to which I was was his eyes :D. I just closed borders with Kuningas and demanded HBR. He has a worker just out in the open now. I think that I'll be taking that next turn.

On the tech race... I'm one turn from Currency, George is 5 turns from Metal Casting, and Rob is making a slow burn on another religious tech. He really doesn't want to be first to get it (Don't know why).

I'm a few turns from my 2nd settler for my 3rd city. Rob has a missionary waiting for me from when he discovered Confusionism. I'll be making missionaries for everyone since both of them are at war. I'm also 9 turns or less away from building the Great Lighthouse. Not many opponents are on the shore and I'm hoping that the ones that are either have crappy production tiles or are busy in a war that they need to focus on. I hope I get it as it will add 2 trade routes to each coastal city (and all will be coastal).

Tubby Rower

31-05-2006, 13:15

Ok new update after a long time....

DaveMcW and grs have been gobbling up lesser civs and turning them into vassal states. I gifted iron to Theoden (being terrorized by DaveMcW) and Dave questioned me on it via PM. I tried PM'ing him back but his box was full so I posted in the main thread my response http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4101300&postcount=868 I couldn't have been so bold in my retort if I wasn't in my isolated position and get away with it. Although I'm sure that I'll hear from him in the future. George is still toying with Kuningas (Russia) so robboo and I have stepped in an will finish him off quickly.

Whomp, RobiD, robboo, George, and myself are starting to join together to attempt to take out Dave and grs. it won't be soon but it will end up in a big showdown. Dave and grs both have 7+ cities and maintenence has to be killing their research. I'm not sure how they are dealing with it. Dave was smart to convert Regentman in to a vassal state called greater Mongolia [lol]. That's the whimpy way out. I told Theoden that if he did that I'll never deal with him again. Hopefully he'll go down fighting and not give Dave an easy way out of his maintenance problems. From what I understand Regentman is told what to research, what to build, and has to give over a good chunk of his gpt to Dave. I think that this is on the verge of exploitish. but I'm not going to complain as it's an agreement between Dave and RM.

Shabbaman

31-05-2006, 13:23

Wow. If you basically have to play your vassal turns for another player, why even bother? How does Regentman think to get out of that? Bizarre.

Tubby Rower

31-05-2006, 13:33

I don't know.... Regentman seems to be week and I guess might have some sort of hope for a shared victory or an uprising in the future. We have inquired about how he'd feel about being liberated but his response said that he would welcome it but he seemed like he was happy where he was in a beaten down slave type of way.

Shabbaman

31-05-2006, 13:35

Shared victory? What's this game about then? It's just a chaos game, isn't it?

Tubby Rower

31-05-2006, 13:40

yup but Fascism enables permanent alliances and then you could share a victory with your perm. ally.

Oh btw, I've got all of my resources hooked up. I have 4 cities and am currently putting camps on all of the beavers [ggw2]. I didn't realize that a Finacial civ can get a bag of gold out of beavers. I guess pimping does pay off. I also have confusionism is 2 of my cities and will be spreading it to the others soon.

Tubby Rower

24-07-2006, 12:46

Long time no update. Here goes...

I have 5 cities (2 tundra) and am the financial power house of this game. I have an average number of troops. The alliance with robboo (Chinese) and GeorgeOP (French) has expanded to Sigma (America) as well. So now I have no borders with anyone other than an ally. So that has allowed me to develop my infrastucture. I can out-research anyone in the game and have been for some time now.

Here is where it gets interesting.... DaveMcW and grs went on a conquering spree with Keshicks and axemen. They pretty much conquered everyone in the north. so the 9 teams south of their borders formed an alliance to not trade techs with them, share techs freely, and take them out. well the eastern guys (Whomp, BCLG, RobiD, mauer, and Meleager/Matrix) have been taking it to grs. he's down to 4 cities now. us western guys had to finish off Kuningas first and are now tromping through Mongol (DaveMcW) territory. So with the end of "The Great War" in sight, the grande southern alliance is starting to show some signs of what's to come.

RobiD has been feeling out robboo about attacking me. Whomp and mauer contacted me last night and was talking about them attacking BCLG and me getting George or Sigma to help me attack Robboo. I asked them about RobiD and Meleager and Whomp said that they are "solid allies". I thought about HT and was about to respond, that my allies are formidable [lol]. Anyway, we think that the eastern guys don't know that our alliance has been in place from the start and hasn't shown any signs of faltering. If any of my allies attack, I'm done for and will likely die within 5 turns. So with that, I'm in the process of formulating a plan to get Whomp, Robi and Meleager to attack BCLG. ~ 5-10 turns after they declare, I'm going to get George, Sigma, and Robboo to attack RobiD and/or Meleager while I traverse the seas and attack Whomp by sea. This could work, but we'll have to make peace with DaveMcW instead of killing him completely.

Tubby Rower

30-08-2006, 15:49

Ok it's been awhile and time for an update.

grs has put up quite the fight. He lasted for a really long time and I was impressed with the amount of forces that it took to take him down. The Eastern guys (Whomp, BCLG, Robi D, & Meleager) were the ones fighting him. We only had really 3 people fighting Robboo, George & Sigma. I threw some troops at Dave's cities up north by attempting a coastal invasion, but that failed miserably. Sigma vacated since Aug 1 and missed a bunch of turns. Robboo & George's forces were decimated by Dave. So the three of us made peace with DAve and then I declared on Sigma after I gave him a 3 day warning by PM and via email @ CFC.

Now Whomp et al are asking for Physics and Railroad. I'm not giving them up for free since the "southern Alliance" treaty is over. Whomp wrote me a PM today trying to figure out what's going on. So I'm hoping that we can stall/ distract him for a while.

Tubby Rower

11-09-2006, 12:27

I've stirred the pot again...

Whomp, Robi D, & all of the easterners wouldn't trade me for rails. I got out of Whomp last night that it was because they wanted me to self-research Bio. Well screw that. So I traded rails to DaveMcW (the one that most people hate in this game) for Bio. It was a bit lop-sided in his favor, but I'm expecting something in return for it soon.

Robi D has been beating the war drums and has some units in the middle of my land. We just recently re-signed a OB agreement so I can't cancel it yet. I have artillery, machine gunners, and destroyers over him. Soon I'll have flight as well. George closed his borders with Robi so that they didn't have free reign over coming through his territory. I have 3 destroyers that should be able to handle any sea invasion. I have been building MG'ers and artillery. George said that he had 4 rifles, 4 cavs, and 4 cannons at his borders. I don't believe that there are any land routes for him to quickly get to me.

Whomp will get in on it too. I told Whomp last night that if Robi attacks me I'll be forced to defend myself in the best way possible and that is to gift DaveMcW up to tech-parity with me and get him in on the war. Whomp told me that that would bring this to another world war. I told him that it is in their hands. I'm willing to lose this game (which I will likely do if Robi attacks) by at least controlling who wins.

Whomp said that they were shocked by the way that we just cut off techs flowing to them. Well crap!!! I'm not a welfare building where people come to get techs for free. So the bottom line is that they were trying to stiff me after I stiffed them, but the difference is that I was willing to trade with Dave for 1 tech and they got their panties in a bunch over it.