Not for CH, BARBU or WHOMP - SPOILER BY DAVIDC -

DavidC · 19-11-2005, 17:25

This is a spoiler thread by DavidC for the 2v2v2v2 against ClassicalHero, vbraun and Whomp !

If you are one of them PLEASE GET OUT OF THIS THREAD

DavidC · 19-11-2005, 17:43

OK thanks

Thanks to Classical for offering to host my spoiler !

Now this game is set up on Continents where each human controls 2 AIs. Each human could choose which ever civs he wants with only one agri civ per human as a restriction. So there can be 4 iro civs for example in the game. One interesting point is that the choice of civs was not made public (more by ommission then choice I would say) so we have no way of nothing each others UU and starting techs right now.
Rik put a lot of effort in the map, THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO OUR ILLUSTRIOUS MAP MAKER.

The game was and still is pretty slow but I hope though that ppl will hold on despite the Civ IV craze that will take all of us.

I chose the Iroquois (GREEN here) (of course

) and the Ottomans (in BLACK), bold move if no horse you will say but my reasoning was that since most players would also choose Iros if there was no horse than it would penalize everyone and not only me so the chance the mapmaker leaves out horse was slim since we had balanced start.

The starting position were very interesting. The map maker decided to penalize the agri civ with a difficult start with mountains and flood plains and no "off-the-bat" obvious quick producting starting moves but gave the non-agri civ and a really, and I mean really, amazing start.
Here are the pictures after 17 or 18 turns already played :

Iroquois :

Ottomans :

The more observant amongst you will notice a few things :
1- First the Ottos are researching Writing

: well I want to have a lot of fun in this game and this is my usual opening move gamble (some of you may remember my opening move gamble vs Barbu

) Since we started with our 2 civs in a Locked Alliance, it meant that we could excahnge techs between our 2 civs on turn 1 in 4000BC !!!
I almost totally missed it and was one millimeter from pressing Enter at the end of my first turn when I almost per accident pressed F4 and saw that Ottos and Iros had contact !

This changed my whole perspective and I actually left the turn as it was and went to sleep over it. The next day I changed my whole strategy : I decided to let the Ottos start on writing to go for the philo gamble even though they are not Agri but because this amazing start location meant they could have a 4 turn settler factory within no time even without being agri. I did this even though I did not know the start of the Iros but I'd rather waste one turn of another tech than one turn of Writing ! If the Iros also had such a great start I would also start them on Writing and jsut switch the Ottos to Wheel next turn, no problem. I also decided to go on a full farmers gamble for the Ottos and went Warrior -> Granary. With Indus worker the granary will come very very soon (after the usual calculations on Excel which Kris will laugh about)

TO BE CONTINUED SHORTLY

Socrates · 19-11-2005, 18:16

Interesting. Don't hesitate to post more about the relationship between your 2 civs. Indeed you got a good instinct when you saw the Ottomans' starting position : with the industrious worker it is stronger than the other one in short- and mid-term (and maybe long-term !). After all the agricultural trait "just" gives you 1 more food in cities with fresh water under Despotism. The decisive element in favor of that starting position is the number of BGs though (plus the +5 fpt of course).

Just a question : why did your Ottoman worker go improving what I believe is a BG up north ? There is another one by the river just next to the cow. Mmmh, thinking about it, considering the number of turns passed and the improved tiles so far, lemme guess : there was a forest on that tile before, right ?

Another question : how did you start on Writing with the Ottomans on the 1st turn, before being able to let the Iroquois give them Alphabet ? Was there a 1-turn delay for the Ottomans on Writing ? I can't see some more gold in the Ottomans' treasury...

What do you mean with the comment about myself and an Excel sheet ?

One of my regrets about Civ3 is to not have played such a game with 2 civs for each player (too late now). That is very interesting but I hope to do it with Civ4.

DavidC · 19-11-2005, 18:31

Shit now I can't remember if the Ottos or the Iros were first

I need to check this : I was either one turn late or could start on turn 1.
Very good point Krys.

Please forgive me but these turn are back in July or August and I could have made a mistake in the exact sequence SORRY _ I WILL CHECK ON THIS ASAP.

The worker Krys had to deforest indeed

As you know me I strictly counted every single worker move of my first 40 turns, the forest was 2 tiles from the BG : I decided to mine/road this one first because of the River tile and the extra beakers needed for the Philo gamble.

The excel sheet allusion is from a remark in my Barbu spoiler, just a joke

DavidC · 19-11-2005, 18:44

Second point is that I am producing only warriors (for now) in Sioux City in order to explore as fast as possible and also protect the Ottos in case of an early rush from a nearby neightbour !
On the exploration front I make a point of following any line of hills or mountains until they stop !
You can see that my first warriro went north where I imagine the ennemy could be since my 2nd civ was South. I have followed the mountain/hill line until this point : green warrior by the red arrow and cow.
Now I suspect there is a inland sea where the red arrow is and I will go on going south even though there is no mountain/hill anymore. There are luxes there and I have to find out what's at the end of this either isthmus or an inland sea ! Too late to turn back now

The blue arrow is where my Ottos are and the green arrow is where I should have gone with my first warrior as this could be where my ennemies are I suspect

Possibly they could be north west of SiouxCity too.

DavidC · 14-06-2006, 13:18

This game is alive again thanks to the great Bearded One !

I will update my spoiler ASAP.

As for the issue of the tech exchange, I indeed lost a turn waiting for the Ottos to get Alpha.
But I still hope to be faster than the others on Philo, thanks to the earlier set-up of the settler factory and the quicker workers finishing roads fast.
We will see if the gamble pays off.

DavidC · 27-07-2006, 16:47

After a rather long hiatus when we lost one of the 4 players, the game was saved by Barbu who came
in to replace vbraun !

We are now at turn 42 and the crazy run to Philo is still on, with most players with Iros civs.
My strategy to exchange techs at start, lose a turn and then get my industrious Ottos to go for
Writing is paying off. I went for a very quick Settler factory and am now churning 4-turn settlers
like no tomorrow. I can now see from the score that my Ottos are bigger than anyone else and this
gives me a good feeling for the Philo run, even though I'm attentive of Whomp's great play.
I really hope it does not come down to that 1 turn as I am playing last

But only 5 turns to get there from turn 42 is pretty good, I also used money from one civ to give
to the other to fund max research.

51.74KB

With industrious workers and amazing start, the Ottos (called Apache in my game) are surely the best
civ for quick expansion and fast research.
Each of my cities are on river, they produce first a warrior then a worker who roads all tiles
being worked and then a granary for fast expansion farmer gambit !
The lands are extremely rich on this continent and I can only imagine that we all have the same
food rich lands.

52.8KB

On the other hand, my Sioux (Iro traits) have produced a huge amount of warriors to explore my
continent and defend my 'farmer gambit Apaches' this seriously slowed the Sioux expansion but
now that I am confident I am alone on this continent (or almost as you will see) I have turned
SiouxCity into another settler factory as Goal#1 is to Expand As Fast As Possible !

77.5KB

The interesting discovery is that there is a long peninsula to my North/NorhtEast and this could
be an isthmus to a fellow continent dweller, this could be very funny and would mean a mostly
economic game of expansion favouring micro-managers like me

46.16KB

DavidC · 31-10-2006, 14:08

Well there isn't a lot of interest in this spoiler so I am reluctant to post long detailed explanation
but I will give a quick update :
- I was the first one ot Philosophy so my gamble paid off ! Researching Republic right now

- I met Whomp with whom I share a continent with a long isthmus, just like my prediction on the above post.
- We agreed on full alliance and indefinite peace !
- I am now running a full farmers gambit, building only granaries and settlers everywhere.

Shabbaman · 31-10-2006, 14:40

Do you trust Whomp?

Tubby Rower · 31-10-2006, 14:47

what are those ruins in the north? did you lose a city and I missed it in the text or is that someone else's city?

19-11-2005, 18:16	#3
Socrates Emperor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,946	Interesting. Don't hesitate to post more about the relationship between your 2 civs. Indeed you got a good instinct when you saw the Ottomans' starting position : with the industrious worker it is stronger than the other one in short- and mid-term (and maybe long-term !). After all the agricultural trait "just" gives you 1 more food in cities with fresh water under Despotism. The decisive element in favor of that starting position is the number of BGs though (plus the +5 fpt of course). Just a question : why did your Ottoman worker go improving what I believe is a BG up north ? There is another one by the river just next to the cow. Mmmh, thinking about it, considering the number of turns passed and the improved tiles so far, lemme guess : there was a forest on that tile before, right ? Another question : how did you start on Writing with the Ottomans on the 1st turn, before being able to let the Iroquois give them Alphabet ? Was there a 1-turn delay for the Ottomans on Writing ? I can't see some more gold in the Ottomans' treasury... What do you mean with the comment about myself and an Excel sheet ? One of my regrets about Civ3 is to not have played such a game with 2 civs for each player (too late now). That is very interesting but I hope to do it with Civ4. __________________ Sent from my Debian

31-10-2006, 14:40	#9
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,493	Do you trust Whomp? __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

31-10-2006, 14:47	#10
Tubby Rower Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Middle of VA. Posts: 3,896	what are those ruins in the north? did you lose a city and I missed it in the text or is that someone else's city? __________________ 3/2006 : Now, surely that must be because some fists might have caused internal damage to certain delicate parts?

19-11-2005, 17:25	#1
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	Not for CH, BARBU or WHOMP - SPOILER BY DAVIDC - This is a spoiler thread by DavidC for the 2v2v2v2 against ClassicalHero, vbraun and Whomp ! If you are one of them PLEASE GET OUT OF THIS THREAD

19-11-2005, 17:43	#2
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	OK thanks Thanks to Classical for offering to host my spoiler ! Now this game is set up on Continents where each human controls 2 AIs. Each human could choose which ever civs he wants with only one agri civ per human as a restriction. So there can be 4 iro civs for example in the game. One interesting point is that the choice of civs was not made public (more by ommission then choice I would say) so we have no way of nothing each others UU and starting techs right now. Rik put a lot of effort in the map, THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO OUR ILLUSTRIOUS MAP MAKER. The game was and still is pretty slow but I hope though that ppl will hold on despite the Civ IV craze that will take all of us. I chose the Iroquois (GREEN here) (of course ) and the Ottomans (in BLACK), bold move if no horse you will say but my reasoning was that since most players would also choose Iros if there was no horse than it would penalize everyone and not only me so the chance the mapmaker leaves out horse was slim since we had balanced start. The starting position were very interesting. The map maker decided to penalize the agri civ with a difficult start with mountains and flood plains and no "off-the-bat" obvious quick producting starting moves but gave the non-agri civ and a really, and I mean really, amazing start. Here are the pictures after 17 or 18 turns already played : Iroquois : Ottomans : The more observant amongst you will notice a few things : 1- First the Ottos are researching Writing : well I want to have a lot of fun in this game and this is my usual opening move gamble (some of you may remember my opening move gamble vs Barbu ) Since we started with our 2 civs in a Locked Alliance, it meant that we could excahnge techs between our 2 civs on turn 1 in 4000BC !!! I almost totally missed it and was one millimeter from pressing Enter at the end of my first turn when I almost per accident pressed F4 and saw that Ottos and Iros had contact ! This changed my whole perspective and I actually left the turn as it was and went to sleep over it. The next day I changed my whole strategy : I decided to let the Ottos start on writing to go for the philo gamble even though they are not Agri but because this amazing start location meant they could have a 4 turn settler factory within no time even without being agri. I did this even though I did not know the start of the Iros but I'd rather waste one turn of another tech than one turn of Writing ! If the Iros also had such a great start I would also start them on Writing and jsut switch the Ottos to Wheel next turn, no problem. I also decided to go on a full farmers gamble for the Ottos and went Warrior -> Granary. With Indus worker the granary will come very very soon (after the usual calculations on Excel which Kris will laugh about) TO BE CONTINUED SHORTLY

19-11-2005, 18:31	#4
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	Shit now I can't remember if the Ottos or the Iros were first I need to check this : I was either one turn late or could start on turn 1. Very good point Krys. Please forgive me but these turn are back in July or August and I could have made a mistake in the exact sequence SORRY _ I WILL CHECK ON THIS ASAP. The worker Krys had to deforest indeed As you know me I strictly counted every single worker move of my first 40 turns, the forest was 2 tiles from the BG : I decided to mine/road this one first because of the River tile and the extra beakers needed for the Philo gamble. The excel sheet allusion is from a remark in my Barbu spoiler, just a joke

19-11-2005, 18:44	#5
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	Second point is that I am producing only warriors (for now) in Sioux City in order to explore as fast as possible and also protect the Ottos in case of an early rush from a nearby neightbour ! On the exploration front I make a point of following any line of hills or mountains until they stop ! You can see that my first warriro went north where I imagine the ennemy could be since my 2nd civ was South. I have followed the mountain/hill line until this point : green warrior by the red arrow and cow. Now I suspect there is a inland sea where the red arrow is and I will go on going south even though there is no mountain/hill anymore. There are luxes there and I have to find out what's at the end of this either isthmus or an inland sea ! Too late to turn back now The blue arrow is where my Ottos are and the green arrow is where I should have gone with my first warrior as this could be where my ennemies are I suspect Possibly they could be north west of SiouxCity too.

14-06-2006, 13:18	#6
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	This game is alive again thanks to the great Bearded One ! I will update my spoiler ASAP. As for the issue of the tech exchange, I indeed lost a turn waiting for the Ottos to get Alpha. But I still hope to be faster than the others on Philo, thanks to the earlier set-up of the settler factory and the quicker workers finishing roads fast. We will see if the gamble pays off.

27-07-2006, 16:47	#7
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	After a rather long hiatus when we lost one of the 4 players, the game was saved by Barbu who came in to replace vbraun ! We are now at turn 42 and the crazy run to Philo is still on, with most players with Iros civs. My strategy to exchange techs at start, lose a turn and then get my industrious Ottos to go for Writing is paying off. I went for a very quick Settler factory and am now churning 4-turn settlers like no tomorrow. I can now see from the score that my Ottos are bigger than anyone else and this gives me a good feeling for the Philo run, even though I'm attentive of Whomp's great play. I really hope it does not come down to that 1 turn as I am playing last But only 5 turns to get there from turn 42 is pretty good, I also used money from one civ to give to the other to fund max research. 51.74KB With industrious workers and amazing start, the Ottos (called Apache in my game) are surely the best civ for quick expansion and fast research. Each of my cities are on river, they produce first a warrior then a worker who roads all tiles being worked and then a granary for fast expansion farmer gambit ! The lands are extremely rich on this continent and I can only imagine that we all have the same food rich lands. 52.8KB On the other hand, my Sioux (Iro traits) have produced a huge amount of warriors to explore my continent and defend my 'farmer gambit Apaches' this seriously slowed the Sioux expansion but now that I am confident I am alone on this continent (or almost as you will see) I have turned SiouxCity into another settler factory as Goal#1 is to Expand As Fast As Possible ! 77.5KB The interesting discovery is that there is a long peninsula to my North/NorhtEast and this could be an isthmus to a fellow continent dweller, this could be very funny and would mean a mostly economic game of expansion favouring micro-managers like me 46.16KB

31-10-2006, 14:08	#8
DavidC Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: . Posts: 118	Well there isn't a lot of interest in this spoiler so I am reluctant to post long detailed explanation but I will give a quick update : - I was the first one ot Philosophy so my gamble paid off ! Researching Republic right now - I met Whomp with whom I share a continent with a long isthmus, just like my prediction on the above post. - We agreed on full alliance and indefinite peace ! - I am now running a full farmers gambit, building only granaries and settlers everywhere.