"The Learning Game" CDZ-SG1 - Page 13

grahamiam · 17-08-2006, 20:38

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ProPain · 17-08-2006, 22:23

renamed, [name].zip to solve the problem. Not a zip thus,just rename

ProPain · 19-08-2006, 11:44

well, no real discussion revolving, Kemal on MSN excepted. I;m gonna take the folowing course of action:

- make peace with Cathy
- Regroup and try to take a few cities of Saladin

ProPain · 19-08-2006, 12:41

turn 2 - continued

Make peace with Cathy, check if deals are possible and she's ok with trading wines. I have the choice of giving horses, fish and gems.
I'm thinking horses are to dangerous military wise, that leaves fish and gems: health vs happiness. I decide health is the less dangerous to us and trade fish.
Our costs drop from 50 to 43.

Start moving our troops to Salas border. 2 small towns (Najran and Baghdad) are defended weakly with 2 archers only, Damascus has 6 troops including 3 archers. I decide to make Najran prioriry no1 as it's located on our borders so we can attack from our own ground. Send SoD that came from Moscow to border with Damascus to fight off incoming and maybe have a shot at Dam. itself.

Start roading sugar to connect it to our empire. Check to see if we're in paganism on Kemal's request: we are.

IT
Saladin retreats a settler/2 archers combo from our territory into Najran. BUmmer as it ups his defenses.

turn 3
some axes are finished and moved towards Najran. Keeping up the unit build, we want to hit saladin hard.

IT
Homer is born in a faraway land.

turn 4
move troops. get open borders with Cathy so I can move our southern explorer out of harms way of some barb swords.

IT
Zzzz

turn 5
3 new axes done, mOve troops.

IT
Saladin adopts Vasalage. He's got Feuda, not good!

turn 6
Troops move. We now have 10 axes, 3 chariots rdy to take on Najran next turn. 3 axes will reinforce next turn. Njaran has 4 archers, 1 spear, 1 settler. Lets hope Sala doesnt upgrade.

IT
We now hold a million souls. How nice, we rank 7 in pop. Imhotep is born

turn 7
Sala has added an archer to Najran, no longbowmen yet. Hope he cant autoupgrade when I declare.
Call up Sala, take open border from the table and tell his head would look nice on the end of a stick.

Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we lose, 1.7 left (boo, 70% win chance)
Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 4.1 left
Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we lose, 0.4 left (boo again)
Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 3.3 left
Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 5.0 left

Upgrade axes vs archers (1.7) attack, we win, 3.3 left
send in heavily promotes axes with shock against spear. we win 4.3 left
Upgrade axes vs archers (0.4) attack, we win, 4.3 left

We own Najran! Sala has left 102 gold in his coffers.

Have to go now and visit some friends will finish later today and upload with pics.

Kemal · 19-08-2006, 13:12

Excellent job PP, good to see we're making solid progress military wise... Any news on the techfront (construction)?

ProPain · 19-08-2006, 16:29

Just ran back in.

Well, construction in 9 or so. But with 102 extra gold we can up the pace a bit. Techwise we're doing quite sadly. Both Sala and Cathy lead us by 5techs or something (doing this by heart).

I was thinking to get construction by ourselves and after that maybe see what we can extort from Sala for peace. Don't have a clue however if this will be as easy as in Civ3. At least our new territories should provide more gold coins for us to be converted into science and less for Sala so we should at least be able to catch up with him and after that get rid of him entirely. That's all presuming we can't finish him now.

Also I dont know how long peace has to last before we redeclare in order to prevent a rep hit (the 20 turns from civ3) That might be a huge factor in deciding in many stages we want to take care of Saladin. At 20 turns of peace I'm leaning towards a two stage war but only if tech extortion is a viable option. Otherwise we're better off killing him asap. Also if possible only 102 gold from one city seems like quite a lot to me (at least by civ3 standards) so he might have enough archer-longbowmen upgrade cash which would be bad news.

Will play the last few turns in half an hour after I've had my tea.

Shabbaman · 19-08-2006, 16:45

Rep hit... well, we don't need the reputation for Catharine, and Saladin doesn't know anyone else (right?). So there's no problem with getting a rep hit.

Kemal · 19-08-2006, 16:57

Civ4 differs from civ3 in this aspect for quite a bit, for example, if you sign peace you are *forced* to maintain the peace for at least 10 turns. You (nor the other party) simply cannot break the treaty during the first 10 turns. After that, no extra rep hit exists for declaring war again, but you do get a standard -3 penalty for a declaration of war in any case.

Also, the gold one plunders from towns isn't related to the treasury of the civ you take it from, but rather each city builds up a treasury of its own with regard to how much plunder you take from it. The length of the city having been under control of a civ and the size are factors in this I think, so grabbing old large size cities from their original owner yields a lot of gold, but recapturing your own large cities yields next to nothing.

Finally, in my experience, tech extortion is *very* difficult, we might be able to extort some lower tier techs like meditation, but anything worth a couple of hundred beakers requires a massive slaughter of the AI, if it is willing to give up these techs at all. So I'd say let's try to grab as many cities we can with out initial offensive, then if need be sign peace and use the 10 turns mandatory peace to rebuild, and perhaps also get some cats in. Getting the Holy Judaism city would obviously help out a lot in the long run for our economy, but I don't think we should sacrifice all to grab it asap. Any city will do as long as we have a decent change to get it.

As shabba said, the rep hit on Cathy (if they are on speaking terms, -1) is of no concern, the pros of expanding our empire and crushing Saladin outweighs this little con by a large margin, imho.

Shabbaman · 19-08-2006, 17:15

Could you upload the save PP?

ProPain · 19-08-2006, 17:22

I was referring to a rep hit for not sitting out the required x-turns of peace but in this case that's no option as we cant get rid of that peace anyway

Ok, playing the last 2.5 turns now. Next stop: Baghdad.

17-08-2006, 22:23	#122
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	renamed, [name].zip to solve the problem. Not a zip thus,just rename __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

19-08-2006, 11:44	#123
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	well, no real discussion revolving, Kemal on MSN excepted. I;m gonna take the folowing course of action: - make peace with Cathy - Regroup and try to take a few cities of Saladin __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

19-08-2006, 12:41	#124
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	turn 2 - continued Make peace with Cathy, check if deals are possible and she's ok with trading wines. I have the choice of giving horses, fish and gems. I'm thinking horses are to dangerous military wise, that leaves fish and gems: health vs happiness. I decide health is the less dangerous to us and trade fish. Our costs drop from 50 to 43. Start moving our troops to Salas border. 2 small towns (Najran and Baghdad) are defended weakly with 2 archers only, Damascus has 6 troops including 3 archers. I decide to make Najran prioriry no1 as it's located on our borders so we can attack from our own ground. Send SoD that came from Moscow to border with Damascus to fight off incoming and maybe have a shot at Dam. itself. Start roading sugar to connect it to our empire. Check to see if we're in paganism on Kemal's request: we are. IT Saladin retreats a settler/2 archers combo from our territory into Najran. BUmmer as it ups his defenses. turn 3 some axes are finished and moved towards Najran. Keeping up the unit build, we want to hit saladin hard. IT Homer is born in a faraway land. turn 4 move troops. get open borders with Cathy so I can move our southern explorer out of harms way of some barb swords. IT Zzzz turn 5 3 new axes done, mOve troops. IT Saladin adopts Vasalage. He's got Feuda, not good! turn 6 Troops move. We now have 10 axes, 3 chariots rdy to take on Najran next turn. 3 axes will reinforce next turn. Njaran has 4 archers, 1 spear, 1 settler. Lets hope Sala doesnt upgrade. IT We now hold a million souls. How nice, we rank 7 in pop. Imhotep is born turn 7 Sala has added an archer to Najran, no longbowmen yet. Hope he cant autoupgrade when I declare. Call up Sala, take open border from the table and tell his head would look nice on the end of a stick. Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we lose, 1.7 left (boo, 70% win chance) Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 4.1 left Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we lose, 0.4 left (boo again) Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 3.3 left Upgrade axes vs archers attack, we win, 5.0 left Upgrade axes vs archers (1.7) attack, we win, 3.3 left send in heavily promotes axes with shock against spear. we win 4.3 left Upgrade axes vs archers (0.4) attack, we win, 4.3 left We own Najran! Sala has left 102 gold in his coffers. Have to go now and visit some friends will finish later today and upload with pics. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

19-08-2006, 13:12	#125
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	Excellent job PP, good to see we're making solid progress military wise... Any news on the techfront (construction)? __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

19-08-2006, 16:29	#126
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	Just ran back in. Well, construction in 9 or so. But with 102 extra gold we can up the pace a bit. Techwise we're doing quite sadly. Both Sala and Cathy lead us by 5techs or something (doing this by heart). I was thinking to get construction by ourselves and after that maybe see what we can extort from Sala for peace. Don't have a clue however if this will be as easy as in Civ3. At least our new territories should provide more gold coins for us to be converted into science and less for Sala so we should at least be able to catch up with him and after that get rid of him entirely. That's all presuming we can't finish him now. Also I dont know how long peace has to last before we redeclare in order to prevent a rep hit (the 20 turns from civ3) That might be a huge factor in deciding in many stages we want to take care of Saladin. At 20 turns of peace I'm leaning towards a two stage war but only if tech extortion is a viable option. Otherwise we're better off killing him asap. Also if possible only 102 gold from one city seems like quite a lot to me (at least by civ3 standards) so he might have enough archer-longbowmen upgrade cash which would be bad news. Will play the last few turns in half an hour after I've had my tea. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

17-08-2006, 20:38	#121
grahamiam Emperor Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA, East Coast. Posts: 2,673	Not Found The requested document was not found on this server. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web Server at civ3duelzone.com

19-08-2006, 16:45	#127
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,493	Rep hit... well, we don't need the reputation for Catharine, and Saladin doesn't know anyone else (right?). So there's no problem with getting a rep hit. __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

19-08-2006, 16:57	#128
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	Civ4 differs from civ3 in this aspect for quite a bit, for example, if you sign peace you are forced to maintain the peace for at least 10 turns. You (nor the other party) simply cannot break the treaty during the first 10 turns. After that, no extra rep hit exists for declaring war again, but you do get a standard -3 penalty for a declaration of war in any case. Also, the gold one plunders from towns isn't related to the treasury of the civ you take it from, but rather each city builds up a treasury of its own with regard to how much plunder you take from it. The length of the city having been under control of a civ and the size are factors in this I think, so grabbing old large size cities from their original owner yields a lot of gold, but recapturing your own large cities yields next to nothing. Finally, in my experience, tech extortion is very difficult, we might be able to extort some lower tier techs like meditation, but anything worth a couple of hundred beakers requires a massive slaughter of the AI, if it is willing to give up these techs at all. So I'd say let's try to grab as many cities we can with out initial offensive, then if need be sign peace and use the 10 turns mandatory peace to rebuild, and perhaps also get some cats in. Getting the Holy Judaism city would obviously help out a lot in the long run for our economy, but I don't think we should sacrifice all to grab it asap. Any city will do as long as we have a decent change to get it. As shabba said, the rep hit on Cathy (if they are on speaking terms, -1) is of no concern, the pros of expanding our empire and crushing Saladin outweighs this little con by a large margin, imho. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

19-08-2006, 17:15	#129
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,493	Could you upload the save PP? __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

19-08-2006, 17:22	#130
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	I was referring to a rep hit for not sitting out the required x-turns of peace but in this case that's no option as we cant get rid of that peace anyway Ok, playing the last 2.5 turns now. Next stop: Baghdad. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah