CRP Suite by Dianthus and PBEMs

Pastorius · 26-01-2005, 12:19

I just downloaded the latest CRP suite from Dianthus and installed it.

And, testing some files to see what this tool does, I found a shocking discovery:

I loaded the last turn played in my first game with GA - which I won.
AND I COULD SEE HIS TERRITORY WITH THE VIEWER FUNCTION!!!

in fact, I could uncheck the spoiler options for the viewer and by that also see MY TERRITORY (since I opened the last file I played, the game and the viewer assumes that GA is the next player, and shows his territory)

This discovery lead me to:

and

I know that it is with some obscure method possible to tamper with a save - and as Kemal demonstrated, it is also possible to detect such tampering. But with this possibility, I fear that Dianthus has gone too far in development. CRP seems to be a good tool to calculate city placement, but one should not be allowed to view the opposing civs lands at all

Kemal · 26-01-2005, 12:29

Agreed, though the problem is of course that any external program that gives info not accessible within the (multiplayer) game becomes problematic for people particpating in competitive MP games, while on the other hand many more people are looking for these utilities to enhance their SP gaming experience.
From early versions of mapstat to Ainwood's civ-assistant, and this program to even some graphic mods, they all give too much info and therefore cause problems when used in (competitive) MP games, in my opinion.

Not much to do about it though I'm afraid, except alerting the creators to see what they think of it, and those that are active in the MP environment (as you just have

) about the problems these programs can cause, and mutually agree not to use them.

Pastorius · 26-01-2005, 13:37

Dianthus says the program should prompt for player password, so I uploaded a sav for him to check over @ CFC

grahamiam · 26-01-2005, 14:07

did you use the viewer or mapstat?

Pastorius · 26-01-2005, 17:05

Viewer. Thing is that after installing it, all sav files changed icons and the windows open with option says open with dianthus application.

So I suppose the default for sav files is to be opened with the viewer...

grahamiam · 26-01-2005, 17:47

the viewer can look at any save file and show you the progress of the game from 4000bc. that way, you could take games from the same start, played by different people, and compare. he actually makes files that include the top 25 in each CFC gotm so you can look at 2 simultaneously. very useful for improving your game but it also assumes that you have access to the file after everything is done and submitted, a la GoTM. pbem posses a much bigger problem that would be nice if he addressed.

i think (and you'll have to get Dianthius to confirm) that he was only looking at mapstat for multiplayer, so that the players can get an instant read on cities about to riot, deals available, flip risks, cultural buildup, and land/pop percentages. my guess is he probably overlooked the fact that for his viewer program and in pbem, you get your opponents save every turn.

edit: just read the thread @ CFC and it looks like he's on it. it was the rings program that he seems to have missed, which is not very useful in C3C.

Pastorius · 26-01-2005, 18:22

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...&page=39&pp=20

Discussion @ CFC with Dianthus

Rings is definitely not useful in C3C, but as it is right now, it is a "backdoor".

grs · 26-01-2005, 19:36

The whole thing is a backdoor

There have already been many versions that had no protection for multiplayer files. It is somewhere in the big thread at CFC.

anarres · 26-01-2005, 20:18

But aren't those versions at least removed now?

Pastorius · 26-01-2005, 20:32

I talked to both Ainwood and Dianthus about this earlier - long before CRp 2.8.2 and CivAssist 10, and both of them said their programs did not support MP saves.

Tried once before, and then the program said that multiplayer files are not supported. I think that was with v2.5 or 2.6 or so. Ainwood also said he wasnt going to add mp support if he did not get massive requests for it. So I thought this was entirely new to those apps. Guess I was wrong

AFAIK Dianthus at least does not host more than the 2 most recent builds. And if I know TF and Ainwood right - there is not many more versions than a couple of builds @ CFC for CivAssist either.

Reason I posted here first, then asked Dianthus in his thread is that threads @ CFC are too large like grs says. And with the strain on their bandwith + no search it is nearly impossible to use CFC anymore...

26-01-2005, 12:19	#1
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	CRP Suite by Dianthus and PBEMs I just downloaded the latest CRP suite from Dianthus and installed it. And, testing some files to see what this tool does, I found a shocking discovery: I loaded the last turn played in my first game with GA - which I won. AND I COULD SEE HIS TERRITORY WITH THE VIEWER FUNCTION!!! in fact, I could uncheck the spoiler options for the viewer and by that also see MY TERRITORY (since I opened the last file I played, the game and the viewer assumes that GA is the next player, and shows his territory) This discovery lead me to: and I know that it is with some obscure method possible to tamper with a save - and as Kemal demonstrated, it is also possible to detect such tampering. But with this possibility, I fear that Dianthus has gone too far in development. CRP seems to be a good tool to calculate city placement, but one should not be allowed to view the opposing civs lands at all __________________

26-01-2005, 12:29	#2
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	Agreed, though the problem is of course that any external program that gives info not accessible within the (multiplayer) game becomes problematic for people particpating in competitive MP games, while on the other hand many more people are looking for these utilities to enhance their SP gaming experience. From early versions of mapstat to Ainwood's civ-assistant, and this program to even some graphic mods, they all give too much info and therefore cause problems when used in (competitive) MP games, in my opinion. Not much to do about it though I'm afraid, except alerting the creators to see what they think of it, and those that are active in the MP environment (as you just have ) about the problems these programs can cause, and mutually agree not to use them. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

26-01-2005, 13:37	#3
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	Dianthus says the program should prompt for player password, so I uploaded a sav for him to check over @ CFC __________________

26-01-2005, 17:05	#5
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	Viewer. Thing is that after installing it, all sav files changed icons and the windows open with option says open with dianthus application. So I suppose the default for sav files is to be opened with the viewer... __________________

26-01-2005, 18:22	#7
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...&page=39&pp=20 Discussion @ CFC with Dianthus Rings is definitely not useful in C3C, but as it is right now, it is a "backdoor". __________________

26-01-2005, 14:07	#4
grahamiam Emperor Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA, East Coast. Posts: 2,673	did you use the viewer or mapstat?

26-01-2005, 17:47	#6
grahamiam Emperor Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA, East Coast. Posts: 2,673	the viewer can look at any save file and show you the progress of the game from 4000bc. that way, you could take games from the same start, played by different people, and compare. he actually makes files that include the top 25 in each CFC gotm so you can look at 2 simultaneously. very useful for improving your game but it also assumes that you have access to the file after everything is done and submitted, a la GoTM. pbem posses a much bigger problem that would be nice if he addressed. i think (and you'll have to get Dianthius to confirm) that he was only looking at mapstat for multiplayer, so that the players can get an instant read on cities about to riot, deals available, flip risks, cultural buildup, and land/pop percentages. my guess is he probably overlooked the fact that for his viewer program and in pbem, you get your opponents save every turn. edit: just read the thread @ CFC and it looks like he's on it. it was the rings program that he seems to have missed, which is not very useful in C3C.

26-01-2005, 19:36	#8
grs The Nameless One Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Stuttgart, Germany. Posts: 1,449	The whole thing is a backdoor There have already been many versions that had no protection for multiplayer files. It is somewhere in the big thread at CFC. __________________ grs / Grookshank

26-01-2005, 20:18	#9
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	But aren't those versions at least removed now? __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

26-01-2005, 20:32	#10
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	I talked to both Ainwood and Dianthus about this earlier - long before CRp 2.8.2 and CivAssist 10, and both of them said their programs did not support MP saves. Tried once before, and then the program said that multiplayer files are not supported. I think that was with v2.5 or 2.6 or so. Ainwood also said he wasnt going to add mp support if he did not get massive requests for it. So I thought this was entirely new to those apps. Guess I was wrong AFAIK Dianthus at least does not host more than the 2 most recent builds. And if I know TF and Ainwood right - there is not many more versions than a couple of builds @ CFC for CivAssist either. Reason I posted here first, then asked Dianthus in his thread is that threads @ CFC are too large like grs says. And with the strain on their bandwith + no search it is nearly impossible to use CFC anymore... __________________