Nightfa11-OPD Spoiler

[Nightfa11]

That's true. I think I had 30+ elite victories against the Chinese and only ONE leader. That's the way the cookie crumbles and I was probably a bit lucky before when I got multiple victories.

Yes, I think I can get another leader. If I can't, I can probably build TOE by hand

[Nightfa11]

Well, the Chinese are gone and I'm now chewing up the Greeks. I took 15 minutes to boot up civ and snap a screen shot of the last minimap because I want some advice. I'm not sure what to do. Here's the latest minimap.



10.48KB

I'm Rome, and therefore Red. I'm currently at war with the Greeks and will take all of their border cities in the next couple of turns. I have ~30 cavalry and a few med inf. The black dots are, from west to east, my forbidden palace (more on this later), palace and possible spot on OPD's continent to settle a city.

Here is my current plan: Take out the greeks as fast as possible. Hopefully this will get me to the industrial age and I can get another leader (assuming I use the one I currently have). I have a half dozen or so elite cavalry that haven't been promoted. I should be able to get a leader from that. I settle the city on OPD's continent, and transport via palace rush my cavalry forces overseas. That gives me one turn to tear up OPD's territory and raze a few cities. Hopefully at that time I'll be transporting 40+ cavalry and can just run him over. Currently, my army compares as strong against his in F3.

I have a few concerns:

1. This doesn't seem too terribly ethical, but we have no agreement nullifying this.

2. If I don't do this, should I move my forbidden palace (by abandon and rush w/ leader) to another place? Mostly plains around both my palace and forbidden palace and I'm not impressed with my prodctivity (currently about 7 turns for MilTrad level techs at 100%). I'm thinking about moving FP to Greece's center. it's nice, lush grassland. I can build my cities to suit, but no pyramids (owned by OPD's rival on other continent...he can't seem to get it, though, which is nice).

What is everyone's thoughts on this. Hrmmm, I should attach demographics as well.




16.47KB

[Aggie]

First of all: with no rules, I don't see anything wrong with the palace rush. I don't like it and would try to avoid it in my games on forehand, but you didn't make any deal as you said.

Second, what a strange place to build a FP. I would only abandon it when you have no improvements at all in it. Do you really want to give up such healthy cores?

Isn't it an idea to conquer the south of OPD's island to try and get domination?

[Nightfa11]

quote:
Second, what a strange place to build a FP. I would only abandon it when you have no improvements at all in it. Do you really want to give up such healthy cores?

I built it there because just south of that is the colossus. I was overly enamored of that spot because I wanted the colossus to be in the first tier. I know I could do better, and I just might try....preferably, I'd move the palace to the other side of the lake and the fp to the center of the land mass west of the lake. I'm losing ~500gpt to corruption at the moment . Needless to say, I've learned from my mistake and it won't be happening again

quote:
Isn't it an idea to conquer the south of OPD's island to try and get domination?

that might be a real good idea....I could do that "fairly" easily. Maybe more so than anything else.....wow...really good idea. And, I could palace rush the Frenchies as well

[Nightfa11]

In the end, I gave him five turns of peace for leaving my incursion onto his continent alone...and out of the goodness of my heart!


Nightfall says:
did you get my msg about industrial age?
OPD says:
yup
Nightfall says:
I rushed a cavalry in the town and I'll shift it to you next turn.. Then you can shift it back along with all techs, if that's ok
OPD says:
thats ok
Nightfall says:
cool
OPD says:
I'm still a bit undecided on your city
OPD says:
or your new city
Nightfall says:
oh, you mean the one in unclaimed territory?
OPD says:
yes
Nightfall says:
it is unclaimed, you know
Nightfall says:

OPD says:
yes
OPD says:
do you intend for us to go to war now
Nightfall says:
mmm
Nightfall says:
if you like. I wasn't planning on it yet, but I can get peace w/ greeks, I think
Nightfall says:
obviously that town won't survive if we go to war now
OPD says:
I can't see how you expect to have a city on my continent and have peace
Nightfall says:
why?
Nightfall says:
you can put one on mine if you like...if you find an open spot (and there are some)
OPD says:
hmmmn
Nightfall says:
however, I do not consider it an act of war under our current peace treaty
OPD says:
you'd make a good poker player
Nightfall says:
do you consider that treaty to have expired?
Nightfall says:
thanks
Nightfall says:
or does at least one of us have to get to the industrial age first?
OPD says:
not at all
Nightfall says:
did you sell the French Mil trad?
Nightfall says:
btw
Nightfall says:
or did they research it
OPD says:
that would be telling
Nightfall says:
I thought we agreed not to sell it
Nightfall says:
I could have gotten good money out of it if I had known you were going to sell it (after all, I researched it)
OPD says:
eeek, yeah I sold it
OPD says:
I figured you think they researched it
Nightfall says:
am I remembering wrong?
Nightfall says:
it was awful quick....
Nightfall says:
ok
OPD says:
I said I wouldn't sell it to the Greeks
Nightfall says:
so what do you want to do about the dity
Nightfall says:
city
Nightfall says:
well, I said keep it from the AI's
Nightfall says:
and then I said I didn't want the greeks to have it
OPD says:
in terms of fairness maybe I should give you some of the money???
Nightfall says:
but I don't have a log of the conversation
OPD says:
you sold the french saltpeter
OPD says:
that screwed me alot worse
Nightfall says:
yeah...but that wasn't talked about at all
Nightfall says:

OPD says:
ok
OPD says:
I'm sorry
Nightfall says:
well, I do consider you the strongest opponent
OPD says:
I shouldn;t have done it
Nightfall says:
how about this.
Nightfall says:
Let me keep my city and you keep your gold. gold isn't an issue with me anyways.
Nightfall says:
per our agreement, I did not sell miltrad to the koreans or the carthigenians...I imagine the greeks have it now, though
Nightfall says:
they got a free IA tech and probably traded it for miltrad
Nightfall says:
and cash
OPD says:
the agreement was for you to sell metallurgy to the French for me iirc
Nightfall says:
we trade the city...get caught up in techs, then peace for five turns
Nightfall says:
yes, I did that (65gpt, I gave you 33)
Nightfall says:
you said we could split it
OPD says:
yeah
Nightfall says:
that agreement is almost done for
OPD says:
I suppose you have me over a barrel
Nightfall says:
mmm
Nightfall says:
not really
OPD says:
playing honourably is kinda important to me
Nightfall says:
It is to me, too. I consider the miltrad thing with the french to be a minor slip...not a major dishonorable act
Nightfall says:
we weren't perfectly clear
OPD says:
thanks
Nightfall says:
if you attack my musketman
Nightfall says:
tha'ts a different story
Nightfall says:
but I won't be mad, I'll just start playing dirty
Nightfall says:
brb
OPD says:
yeah back in 5
Nightfall says:
back
Nightfall says:
for a bit
Nightfall says:
Here's what I propose. Trade cities. Peace for five turns, starting the turn I receive the city back. You give me all the techs you receive from the Great Library.
Nightfall says:
at the end of five turns, we'll talk
OPD says:
talk?
OPD says:
are you open to the possiblility of peace for a while?
OPD says:
the thing is your city is a perfect opportunity for me.
Nightfall says:
I am open to it
OPD says:
while I don't seek a war just yet I could do with a war for a war elephant attack if you know waht I mean ;(
OPD says:

Nightfall says:
heh
Nightfall says:
you have three neighbors
Nightfall says:
why don't you take one of them
Nightfall says:
you haven't had your GA yet????
OPD says:
peace cost me far too much
Nightfall says:
wow, with War Elephants I figured that happened a while back
OPD says:
I had to sell the french mill trad to get them to stop attacking me
OPD says:
nah I've been attacking with MI and pikes
Nightfall says:
ahh
Nightfall says:
well
OPD says:
I could attack the koreans but that would land me in the shit
Nightfall says:
so you want to negotiate a false war to jump start your Golden age
Nightfall says:
I can understand that
OPD says:
yes
Nightfall says:
esp when you get education
Nightfall says:
so you can build unis
OPD says:
no Unis
Nightfall says:
how much did you get from french for miltrad?
Nightfall says:
that must have been a bad war for you
Nightfall says:
or did you just trade it to get your golden age
OPD says:
69 gpt
Nightfall says:
to get peace, not golden age
OPD says:
the french are stronger than both of us
Nightfall says:
they're equal with me in army strength
Nightfall says:
according to f3
Nightfall says:
and I could take them....
OPD says:
yeah but they're first in mfg and prod
Nightfall says:
mmm
Nightfall says:
I think they are only first in Prod (the one at the bottom)
Nightfall says:
I'm first in everything else (until your golden age)
Nightfall says:
mine is long gone obviously
Nightfall says:
what do those demographics mean...is there a guide somewhere...the search function is shut down at cfc
OPD says:
I checked your mfg 2 turns ago
Nightfall says:
hrmmm...
Nightfall says:
I'll have to look again
OPD says:
you were at 189
Nightfall says:
how did you do that?
OPD says:
mfg is shields after waste
Nightfall says:
well, I have a poorly placed FP, so that could be true
OPD says:
if your first you take away labourers untill you are second
Nightfall says:
I'm thinking about moving it. I have 12 elite cavalry and I'm holding onto a leader
Nightfall says:
ahhh
Nightfall says:
that's a neat trick
OPD says:
you must have alot!!! of cavs
Nightfall says:
here's what I want in echange for your attack on my musketman
Nightfall says:
only 30 or so
Nightfall says:
I just attack with vets only when possible because I already have a leader
OPD says:
it doesn't have to be the musket it can be a warrior
Nightfall says:
well, I'd have to ship one over there...how long do you want to wait?
OPD says:
you can rush one I'll give you the money
Nightfall says:
oh, you mean in the city
OPD says:
yeah
Nightfall says:
don't worry bout the money
Nightfall says:
I want all your gold that is generated during your golden age, because of your golden age.
Nightfall says:
in other words, ifyou generate 400gpt now
Nightfall says:
and your GA moves that to 500gpt
Nightfall says:
I want 100gpt
Nightfall says:
you can have the shields, I'll take the gold
Nightfall says:

OPD says:
you're joking
Nightfall says:
nope...
Nightfall says:
that's the starting pt for negotiations
OPD says:
I don't want to negotiate
Nightfall says:
ok
Nightfall says:
then no deal. If you attack, peace is off
OPD says:
if you want me to not attack you'll have to give a time frame of longer than 5 turns before war can start
Nightfall says:
no..because the not attacking is just the status quo under our peace agreement
OPD says:
ok then
OPD says:
you play way to hard
Nightfall says:
sorry
OPD says:
lol no is more fun
Nightfall says:
I just want to win and you're doing well against some tough oppoonents
OPD says:
ok then
OPD says:
I can go with the status quo
Nightfall says:
ok
OPD says:
I can do without a GA for now
Nightfall says:
ok....
Nightfall says:
might be better after you build some unis anyway
OPD says:
perhpas
Nightfall says:
I'm used to playing sci civs...they are EXPENSIVE when you're not playing a sci civ
OPD says:
I've having a tough time w/o ind to tell you the truth
Nightfall says:
I almost never play ind...unless someone lets me be the ottomans
OPD says:
although commercial is crazy
Nightfall says:
heh
Nightfall says:
I'm enjoying mil
Nightfall says:
seven leaders so far...or 8...I've lost count
OPD says:
yeah Mr wonders
Nightfall says:
I try
Nightfall says:
during chinese war...30+ elite victories, only one leader
Nightfall says:
and I lost one in a culture flip
OPD says:
I've only had 1 in the game with aggie and that was killed
Nightfall says:
ouch
Nightfall says:
defensive leader?
Nightfall says:
they almost always die
OPD says:
yeah
Nightfall says:

OPD says:
ok then so the city stays for now and peace for 5 turns after city exchange
OPD says:
am going to play the turn
Nightfall says:
ok
Nightfall says:
yes

[anarres]

You guys are very polite to each other!

[Nightfa11]

Ok, I think I'm going to get beat to Theory of Evolution.

I sold medicine to the AI's thinking that OPD already had it. He didn't. BIG BIG mistake as a I had a leader waiting for ToE.

How to recover?

1. Espionage
2. Hope that when his golden age is over, I get back on top research wise, but I doubt it at this point.
3. Research Rep Parts, stop all research, build 100 arty and 50 infantry and rape him (intercontinental makes this tough, though.)
4. Try to sneak in the back door with a diplo victory. I like this idea except I have a trashed rep (no GPT deals where I get something for GPT). However, so does OPD. I Have never been at war with two of the four remaining AI's and I can eliminate the third. Does anyone think I could get those two civ's vote (I trade with them often)? That would equal a win for me.
5. Attempt Space Race. I think this will be problematic as I might not be able to outresearch OPD in the modern age. Then again, I might. How does espionage work in regards to sabotaging ship parts? Is that a viable solution? How about Nukes?

[anarres]

So I take it you both have Electricity and no-one has Scientific Method? Also that OPD is in a GA and has better research than you (currently)?

It is unlikely that OPD has a leader waiting for ToE, unless he thought he was going to get it. If he has a pre-build it may be timed wrong (e.g. 3 turns left for electricity and 4 for Scientific Method).

I would say go for ToE still. Unless you know something we don't...

[Aggie]

Go for ToE and when he tries to get to Hoover: don't dispair. In my games vs Jack and CB both players who didn't get ToE still had a chance to snatch Hoover. Being 2nd in the tech race isn't THAT bad. You get to research things faster and since you are on differnet continents, you can always recover from this tech decifit.

Trade a lot with the AI. He may be tech leader, but you can gain two techs by researching one and then trade for another. And build as much scientific buildings as you can! You can use all the research.

[Nightfa11]

Well, I decided to go get Rep Parts and now I'm two turns into that rather than Scientific Method. By my calcs (assuming 4 turns to Sci Meth) he should build it in two or three turns. I don't have enough money to investigate his city to make sure, though. He has sold electricity to everyone, so I thought I'd go the other direction. Assuming he goes Atomic/Electronics I'll have Rep parts to trade for those, and I might still have a shot at Hoovers. If I don't get it, I think I can get 30 cav over there to raze his hoover city...or I can end up outresearching him by moving my forbidden palace. I'm waiting for his GA to end to see where we really stand.

The F3 advisor still says I have a strong military compared to his.....