America and England: true love?

[Ehecatl Atzin]

Well, that depends on what level of freedom you asign to people. If u 'spose that people tend to do what big brother says then... we are pretty much royally and irrevocably screwed. If you believe people still have the power to decide over their very existence and organize and fight the good fight, push the rock up the hill and raise a barn and what not, then that's real liberty, not market liberty, not "buy at the best price fuck the guy who did it" liberty, not "I'm free to eat myself into morbidly obesse country" liberty.
If people are essencially free and responsable for the decisions they make, they also have to deal with the consecuence of buying dirty merchandise when the info on it is at the click of a mouse; but of course, it's always easier to ignore that and buy big 'cause it's closer and cheaper ...as a friend of mine (statesman) once said: in the States, it's all about us...

[Lt. Killer M]

anarres: not at all! I just wanted to point out that blaming the consumer for not being perfect is too harsh and demands too much. Why do you think I work for less money than I could get because I do not want to support drilling oil etc?

EA: I fully agree with you, we are royally and irrevocally fucked.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M
EA: I fully agree with you, we are royally and irrevocally fucked.

hehe, no, you don't. I gave two options, regretably, you chose the one I did not. I still believe people have to power to choose over their own existence... call me an idealist

[Lt. Killer M]

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

hehe, no, you don't. I gave two options, regretably, you chose the one I did not. I still believe people have to power to choose over their own existence... call me an idealist

I know, I know, I didn't mean we both agree on how it is but I agree with your assessment that if, then....
and I think we are. I just need to look around and see what people fight over, what they damend of life etc. I admire all idealists, I used to be one, but the older I get the less can I believe in the good in human nature. It doesn't exists, and those who think like you are on the way out. Always was like that: the most powerfull wins in the long run.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

aahhh, yes, experience, that pathelic little thing old people use to deter young people from making mistakes and experimenting and implementing something new and diferent, radical and shinny. If the most powerfull wins in the long run, then why bother? why not take that job that pays more and let the earth get more drills in then a cheap hooker? someone is gonna get it anyway, why not you? If u stop believing in the goodness of humanity then basically u stoped believeing in yourself... since u are human, after all. People don't ask for alot, just a place to call home, food on the table, a [b]decent[\b] job and a better future for their kids, basically that's it. But fear and greed do tend to take the better of us, but even then we are free to decide to stop. Humanity is free, inspite of itself. Sartre I think.

[Lt. Killer M]

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

aahhh, yes, experience, that pathelic little thing old people use to deter young people from making mistakes and experimenting and implementing something new and diferent, radical and shinny. If the most powerfull wins in the long run, then why bother? why not take that job that pays more and let the earth get more drills in then a cheap hooker? someone is gonna get it anyway, why not you? If u stop believing in the goodness of humanity then basically u stoped believeing in yourself... since u are human, after all. People don't ask for alot, just a place to call home, food on the table, a [b]decent[\b] job and a better future for their kids, basically that's it. But fear and greed do tend to take the better of us, but even then we are free to decide to stop. Humanity is free, inspite of itself. Sartre I think.

a) I do not intend to deter anyone! If it shows any promise of working believe me, I will be the first to jump on the train
b) I am not even close to old
c) I am an idealist turning slowly realist. Dumb, I know. Either, get into the system and abuse it, or get in, climb up, and change it. both will not let me sleep soundly, first because of my conscience, second because I am not good at lying.....

btw, people ask for a HELL of a lot more than decent food and a home, they ask for a SUV and an car per kid and caviar.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

I didn't mean u where detering anyone, I meant experience (daily life) is detering you. That's still food and home, only the package changes. A studio flat is no less of a home then a mansion on key west. I'm noy saying rich guys should give everything to everybody else; but everyone should have the same oportunities to attain those things. When big business, imperial countries, the WTF and the world bank conspire to efectively close the door to real progress on "3rd world" countries then that's violence and that's a war. Everyone should have the right to oportunities, the right to choose and not get right down screwed by someone else.

[Lt. Killer M]

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

I didn't mean u where detering anyone, I meant experience (daily life) is detering you. That's still food and home, only the package changes. A studio flat is no less of a home then a mansion on key west. I'm noy saying rich guys should give everything to everybody else; but everyone should have the same oportunities to attain those things. When big business, imperial countries, the WTF and the world bank conspire to efectively close the door to real progress on "3rd world" countries then that's violence and that's a war. Everyone should have the right to oportunities, the right to choose and not get right down screwed by someone else.

I cannot argue with that at all!

But: if you give all these opportunities to the poor of the world now, you will run into two problems:
- ecology
- lower standard of living in now-rich countires.

the first doesn't matter much (although it is the long-term scarier one), the second is what keeps it from working. Tell people here they cannot have a car for each of their kids and they will skin you alive.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M
I cannot argue with that at all!
But: if you give all these opportunities to the poor of the world now, you will run into two problems:
- ecology
- lower standard of living in now-rich countires.
the first doesn't matter much (although it is the long-term scarier one), the second is what keeps it from working. Tell people here they cannot have a car for each of their kids and they will skin you alive.

You could argue that the standar of living in rich countries is very much deplorable... being the fatest nation on the face of the earth (The States) is not a very good indicator of "standard of living" nor is the constant and sickening fear and paranoia that society lives in. And if that doesn't work... who builds their cars? who harvests their crops and makes their sparkling wine? I'll tell u who: poor countries, migrant workers, kids in sweat shops The factory won't work without the workers . To quote Marx: Workers of the world unite!

EDIT-- and if that doesn't work, well... violence can and usually does get an answer with violence. Do you think 9/11 was an "unprovoked" agression? At least I can tell u that in Mexico there was more than just one smiling face and more than one person said: damn gringos got what they deserved... yeah, it's harsh and cruel, but when u see the one that has opresed and abused u ever since u can remember take a hit, u can't help but feel somewhat glad that retribution does exist.

[Lt. Killer M]

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

You could argue that the standar of living in rich countries is very much deplorable... being the fatest nation on the face of the earth (The States) is not a very good indicator of "standard of living" nor is the constant and sickening fear and paranoia that society lives in. And if that doesn't work... who builds their cars? who harvests their crops and makes their sparkling wine? I'll tell u who: poor countries, migrant workers, kids in sweat shops The factory won't work without the workers . To quote Marx: Workers of the world unite!

I fully agree again! But try taking something from the fat&rich.........
In the area where my parents live there are about 1,4 parking spaces per flat. People now complain when their cars are towed because they park on the ped corssings because 'there are too few parking spaces'. Well, nobody forced them to buy cars when they have no place to park them. There is subways and busses. And there are parking places less than 400m away. But they think it is their God-given right to park right in front of their houses......

and if the workers unite they are laid off - there is always someone in so dire need of a job that he will take the money and think of his stomach and his kids rather than stand united - and starve.