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View Poll Results: European Constitution Referendum in Nederland ? | |||
Yes, a referendum should be held. | 3 | 30.00% | |
No, a referendum should not be held. | 3 | 30.00% | |
Damn, I wish I was Dutch so I could vote in this poll. | 4 | 40.00% | |
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll |
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26-09-2007, 18:51 | #21 | |
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands.
Posts: 3,108
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Rik, you really think that when you state this in a debate
Quote:
I'm sorry but if you're going to make claims about knowing the one and only truth, you're going to have to back them up with facts. Simple as that. Btw, you do realize that at most 25% of the people aged 25-65 has had a VWO or better education? And as Swingue states, the treaty revolves about very difficult matters of state and politics which simply is above the level of education (and, at least as crucial, interest) of the "average Jan" in Holland.
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26-09-2007, 19:09 | #22 |
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Kemal: start a new thread on that topic and keep this thread on-topic.
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26-09-2007, 19:33 | #23 |
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands.
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Well, if these are the answers I get on imho very reasonable questions, yeah I'm out of the thread.
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26-09-2007, 23:19 | #24 | |
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Quote:
Cause we had some idiot politicians 2 years ago to have a referendum there is a valid point in Kingreno's argument here. For the rest I stay with my earlier comment. 1. it is way to complex to vote on easily in a referendum 2. it is a conservative tool to prevent change 3. it is going to be hijacked by some parties for other reasons
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26-09-2007, 23:36 | #25 | |
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Quote:
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27-09-2007, 00:28 | #26 | |
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27-09-2007, 00:40 | #27 |
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Madison, WI.
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If you want an American's opinion (and even if you don't)
1) They put this to a referendum the first time, there should be a clear reason given if they suddenly don't the second time simply because they didn't get the result they wanted the first time. A number of what turned out to be very bad laws have been passed in the Midwest where I live, because of this type of manuvering (the leaders tend to be much more liberal than their constiuents in SD, MN and WI where I have lived). 2) There needs to be some body with potentially conflicting interests to vote on something of this magnitude in my opinion. In the US we require 3/4 of the states to approve any constitutional ammendment keeping a form of check and balance on national legislators. This review process often exposes weaknesses that can then be corrected, removes conflicts of interest and prevents a single influential person in a body from dominating the procedings, knowing he has the votes to do so. Without a system like state approval, I believe that a referendum may be in order. Still I'm not Dutch and you have some weird laws and systems over there that I have no intention to learn. May as well knock yourselves out for what I care.
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02-10-2007, 09:11 | #28 |
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While I think the ŽnoŽ was not a smart vote, I do have my doubts about the proposed text. But that aside:
If you let people vote, and then go behind their back to do the opposite of what they decided, then that is not democratic. Period.
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02-10-2007, 15:42 | #29 | ||
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Quote:
The only way to not have a 2nd referendum is when parliament and government reject the current treaty as well. Since that is what the citizens told them to do so 2 years ago.
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02-10-2007, 17:31 | #30 |
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My opinion not to hold another referendum is for the same reasons as two years ago. I find the argument that because there was a first referendum you cannot deny the people a 2nd one a very valid one, however. But doesn't change the fact that I am very glad there isn't gonna come another referendum. (I'm very glad that I'm not a politician responsible for this matter. )
What should happen if the 2nd referendum's vote is also "no"? The first time there were a zillion different reasons why people voted "no". And all political parties made a different summary out of them. The fact that the treaty has been changed purely cosmetically is IMO the best thing, because it already was a consensus between all different countries within the EU. To demand a more Dutch vision in the treaty is quite selfish. I mean, it's that kind of attitude that makes the European parlamentarians travel between Brussels and Strassbourg all the time! It's that kind of attitude that make the EU pay subsidies to farmers based on reasons that were only valid forty years ago! Dozens of civil servants and parlamentarians worked on this document, twitched and tweaked it, argued and debated about it, and then it was (or will again be) subject to the people who haven't heard a single argument from those debates and mostly didn't even read the damn thing! But they'll judge based on shallow things like whether the Euro was good for us or not. Christ, even economists haven't figured that out yet.
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