13 things that do not make sense...

betazed · 18-03-2005, 18:48

I posted this on CFC. Thought I would post it here too.

There is a beautiful article on slashdot today. I thought I should share it here.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...mg18524911.600

Basically, it talks about 13 observations that we see around us that do not have scientific explanations (yet).

Melifluous · 18-03-2005, 19:14

Wow.

Thanks for that, awesome read.

Melifluous

col · 18-03-2005, 19:20

Well the cold fusion claim is bollocks. That experiment has been completely debunked. Most of the others are astonomical where the real problem is lack of data - or it may be lack of a working quantum gravity theory.

anarres · 18-03-2005, 19:22

OK, so 3 or 4 seem very likely to have simple explanations, but that still leaves 8 or 9 that are simply scary (or exciting, it depends I guess).

I didn't know that thermal equlibrium in the microwave radiation was a probelm, it's a shame it didn't explain in any detail why you would expect a non-uniform thermal reading.

col · 18-03-2005, 19:24

The problem with the background is that it is too uniform - and you can only really get that if the different parts have had chance to reach thermal equilibrium ie they were once in contact.
I wrote part of my M Sc thesis on the microwave background uniformity and the data isnt that great to be honest.

betazed · 18-03-2005, 19:49

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by col

The problem with the background is that it is too uniform - and you can only really get that if the different parts have had chance to reach thermal equilibrium ie they were once in contact.
I wrote part of my M Sc thesis on the microwave background uniformity and the data isnt that great to be honest.

Didn't COBE and WMAP get better data on that? I thought WMAP did an excellent survey of the microwave background. So why do you say that the data isn't that great?

betazed · 18-03-2005, 19:57

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by anarres

OK, so 3 or 4 seem very likely to have simple explanations, but that still leaves 8 or 9 that are simply scary (or exciting, it depends I guess).

Dunno too much about 3. But as far as 4 is concerned, there aren't too many simple explanations left. Some of those cosmic rays are so high energy that it boggles the mind. For example, the most powerful ray yet discovered was so powerful that the single proton in it packed enough energy could lift a standard size brick for about 5 feet. Considering how small the rest mass of a proton is that is an awesome amount of energy. That proton must have been moving at practically the speed of light.

Now the point is that there are very few mechanisms in the known Universe (much less in the known galaxy) that can be such an awesome particle accelerator.

betazed · 18-03-2005, 20:11

On high energy cosmic rays: check this out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh-My-God_particle

smalltalk · 20-03-2005, 16:38

On homeopathy:

I know a couple of families, who swear by it. I've had some debates with them, along the lines, that homeopathy is a placebo effect. The usual answer is, "How can there be a placebo effect with a one-year old?".

Well, if the patient is satisfied with his doctor and his medicin, who am I to object? After all homeopathy is cheap and harmless, something you can not say about the antibiotics most doctors are so predisposed to describe for every little scratch.

What I cannot understand, is how one is actually able to produce a highly diluted solution of a substance - and nothing but that substance. In silicon chip production a purity of perhaps one part per billion is achieved (maybe add a few magnitudes). You need a clean room to do this.

High potency homoepathic pharmacy wants to do a solution in the scale of avogadro's constant 6*10^23. I doubt this is possible. Do they even use clean rooms? If you're preparing a solution of, say, Belladonna or Mercurium - how can you make sure that it's not contaminated by some odd molecules from your lab? A nicotin molecule from a smoker perhaps, some nitrogen or sulphoric or heavy-metal dust from traffic exhaust or whatever? According to homeopathic theory, those trace particles should be boosted in their medical effect too.

***

Anyway, my grandma often tells this story:

Her brother had a teeth ache. So her mother made a remedy: she put some sugar into a glass of water, stirred and gave it to the poor boy.

After a while he said: "Oh it's getting much better."

akots · 20-03-2005, 19:32

@Smalltalk: The pacebo and homeopathy are really-really very bad problems in a sense that it is not known whether these problems really exist or not. A large-scale studies with many patients are really unethical to conduct and small-scale studies do not produce reliable results. Besides, nobody ever heard of negative outcomes just because people are very reluctant to publish about it.

Regaring dilutions and such: It is quite possible in a controlled environment such as used in pharmaceutial companies for drug manufacturing or in some laboratories with biosafety level 3 and up as well as certain hospitals. Considering these facilities are rather abundant, it is not a big deal. The theory of the homeopathy is complicated and rather poorly developed at the moment.

There were a few scandals regarding some Nature paper long time ago, around 1991 or so, back when I was a graduate student. A few scientists claimed they could have measured an effect of a molecule on the intact cells in homeopathic dilution when the number of molecules in their solution was zero. Alas, these experiments were impossible to repeat in other labs and it has been concluded that it is either fraud or rough experimental mistake. Other similar experiments are sometimes reproduced though in different labs.

However, there is nothing wrong in general with the idea that a single molecule or single photon can produce substantial biological effect on the whole organism. This is one of the mechanisms of blood clot formation under certain conditions and some immunity reactions. For example, a known fact is that a single molecule of certain bacterial toxins (diphtheria toxin and some botulinum toxin species) can kill a cell. The cell, upon its death, will release a number of molecules regulating adjacent cells which might induce their death as well. Well, these dead cells in turn release some signals as well. This is called amplification of the signal and is a known phenomenon.

Oh, btw, it is also known that hunger and decreased glucose in the blood increase general pain sensitivity and conversely, even slight increase of blood glucose can decrease general pain sensitivity.

Sorry if this all seems a bit too scientific.

18-03-2005, 18:48	#1
betazed Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: . Posts: 10	13 things that do not make sense... I posted this on CFC. Thought I would post it here too. There is a beautiful article on slashdot today. I thought I should share it here. http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...mg18524911.600 Basically, it talks about 13 observations that we see around us that do not have scientific explanations (yet).

18-03-2005, 19:14	#2
Melifluous Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In the bar with SF. Posts: 3,024	Wow. Thanks for that, awesome read. Melifluous __________________ Isn't it awfully nice to have a penis? Isn't it frightfully good to have a dong? It's swell to have a stiffy, It's divine to own a dick. From the tiniest little tadger To the world's biggest prick! So three cheers for your willy or John Thomas. Hooray for your one-eyed trousers snake.

18-03-2005, 19:20	#3
col King Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Sandwich Islands. Posts: 1,529	Well the cold fusion claim is bollocks. That experiment has been completely debunked. Most of the others are astonomical where the real problem is lack of data - or it may be lack of a working quantum gravity theory. __________________ I can't be arsed.

18-03-2005, 19:22	#4
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	OK, so 3 or 4 seem very likely to have simple explanations, but that still leaves 8 or 9 that are simply scary (or exciting, it depends I guess). I didn't know that thermal equlibrium in the microwave radiation was a probelm, it's a shame it didn't explain in any detail why you would expect a non-uniform thermal reading. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

18-03-2005, 19:24	#5
col King Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Sandwich Islands. Posts: 1,529	The problem with the background is that it is too uniform - and you can only really get that if the different parts have had chance to reach thermal equilibrium ie they were once in contact. I wrote part of my M Sc thesis on the microwave background uniformity and the data isnt that great to be honest. __________________ I can't be arsed.

18-03-2005, 20:11	#8
betazed Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: . Posts: 10	On high energy cosmic rays: check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh-My-God_particle

20-03-2005, 16:38	#9
smalltalk Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Echo Park. Posts: 544	On homeopathy: I know a couple of families, who swear by it. I've had some debates with them, along the lines, that homeopathy is a placebo effect. The usual answer is, "How can there be a placebo effect with a one-year old?". Well, if the patient is satisfied with his doctor and his medicin, who am I to object? After all homeopathy is cheap and harmless, something you can not say about the antibiotics most doctors are so predisposed to describe for every little scratch. What I cannot understand, is how one is actually able to produce a highly diluted solution of a substance - and nothing but that substance. In silicon chip production a purity of perhaps one part per billion is achieved (maybe add a few magnitudes). You need a clean room to do this. High potency homoepathic pharmacy wants to do a solution in the scale of avogadro's constant 610^23. I doubt this is possible. Do they even use clean rooms? If you're preparing a solution of, say, Belladonna or Mercurium - how can you make sure that it's not contaminated by some odd molecules from your lab? A nicotin molecule from a smoker perhaps, some nitrogen or sulphoric or heavy-metal dust from traffic exhaust or whatever? According to homeopathic theory, those trace particles should be boosted in their medical effect too. ** Anyway, my grandma often tells this story: Her brother had a teeth ache. So her mother made a remedy: she put some sugar into a glass of water, stirred and gave it to the poor boy. After a while he said: "Oh it's getting much better." __________________ <font size=\"1\">\"I have to play EXISTANCE with someone friendly. Are you friendly or are you not?\"</font id=\"size1\">

20-03-2005, 19:32	#10
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	@Smalltalk: The pacebo and homeopathy are really-really very bad problems in a sense that it is not known whether these problems really exist or not. A large-scale studies with many patients are really unethical to conduct and small-scale studies do not produce reliable results. Besides, nobody ever heard of negative outcomes just because people are very reluctant to publish about it. Regaring dilutions and such: It is quite possible in a controlled environment such as used in pharmaceutial companies for drug manufacturing or in some laboratories with biosafety level 3 and up as well as certain hospitals. Considering these facilities are rather abundant, it is not a big deal. The theory of the homeopathy is complicated and rather poorly developed at the moment. There were a few scandals regarding some Nature paper long time ago, around 1991 or so, back when I was a graduate student. A few scientists claimed they could have measured an effect of a molecule on the intact cells in homeopathic dilution when the number of molecules in their solution was zero. Alas, these experiments were impossible to repeat in other labs and it has been concluded that it is either fraud or rough experimental mistake. Other similar experiments are sometimes reproduced though in different labs. However, there is nothing wrong in general with the idea that a single molecule or single photon can produce substantial biological effect on the whole organism. This is one of the mechanisms of blood clot formation under certain conditions and some immunity reactions. For example, a known fact is that a single molecule of certain bacterial toxins (diphtheria toxin and some botulinum toxin species) can kill a cell. The cell, upon its death, will release a number of molecules regulating adjacent cells which might induce their death as well. Well, these dead cells in turn release some signals as well. This is called amplification of the signal and is a known phenomenon. Oh, btw, it is also known that hunger and decreased glucose in the blood increase general pain sensitivity and conversely, even slight increase of blood glucose can decrease general pain sensitivity. Sorry if this all seems a bit too scientific. __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)