If the AI wins it should be a draw....

anarres · 15-09-2003, 09:53

I think that if the AI wins (by Diplo, for example), the game should be a draw (i.e. no ladder changes).

Having a better score is not a good measure of how well you are doing, and it means the player in the lead in score as you reach the modern age can aim for an AI diplo win, or can slow the other human down with WW to force an AI space win.

I think this rule is unfair, I would like the ladder admins to consider changing it. I am not asking this be changed for games in progress, but for new games.

Aggie · 15-09-2003, 10:34

I do agree that we could change it for new games. But I'm afraid that also could be misused. I don't have good examples yet, but something tells me that also isn't waterproof.

DrA yesterday had a great suggestion for games were the AI wins: let the score count for half. So someone gets/loses about 25 points in these cases.

Lt. Killer M · 15-09-2003, 11:19

I think it depends on the game: say, both players are at each others throat and don't amount to much all game long. But on player manages to stay ahead in score until an AI gets a culture or UN win - why shouldn't that count as a win? He/She did after all fight for a better score?

Admittedly, that is not the real aim of the game, so I think DrA has a good point there!

digger760 · 15-09-2003, 11:39

i'm not sure that a draw is such a good idea, what if you made a few bad moves at the start or had a bit of bad luck, you could throw the game. I think if you loose to the AI it is tough titties and highest score wins.

anarres · 15-09-2003, 14:29

digger, how could you 'throw' the game? The only realistic way for the AI to win is by Diplo or Spacerace. How can you get to that part of the game unless you are competitive. If you make sucha bad mistake the other player would squash you.

My point is that the person in the lead can deliberately go for an AI win if they know they can't win themselves. This is in my mind unfair, and if it is possible for anything to be "misused" then this is it...

I have a good example too, for why score is a shit measure of performance: Player 1 has 1 or 2 lux's on their half of the world. Player 2 has 7 lux's on their side. Player 2 will always have a higher score, but player 1 may be amazing in even getting to the modern age with only 2 lux'sin their territory. Now player 2 can push for an AI win (defensive stalemates are easy if you go for it - especially since you can drop research to 0 and mobilise at the cost of science buildings).

Can anyone tell me how counting them as a draw could be abused?

Shabbaman · 15-09-2003, 14:49

If the AI wins, both players should be whipped.

anarres · 15-09-2003, 14:51

Taking my example of why score is not a good representation of how the game is going - you don't even need a disparity as bad as 2 lux's vs 7: if one player has 5 and the other 7, that is almost as bad....

digger760 · 15-09-2003, 15:14

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by anarres

digger, how could you 'throw' the game?

opps was'nt thinking straight. I suppose in the situation i suggested all the opponent has to do is play it out till he's past your score

Nightfa11 · 15-09-2003, 15:42

I agree with shabbaman, how about if the AI wins, both players get a loss? I'm not sure how fair that is, but I can see someone playing for a draw to avoid a loss, and this eliminates that possibility

Skyfish · 15-09-2003, 16:38

If the AI wins it should be a loss for both players...
Thats the principle, now how to make it work I have no idea yet....

Even anarres solution could be used as a cheap escape, as aggie says...

15-09-2003, 09:53	#1
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	If the AI wins it should be a draw.... I think that if the AI wins (by Diplo, for example), the game should be a draw (i.e. no ladder changes). Having a better score is not a good measure of how well you are doing, and it means the player in the lead in score as you reach the modern age can aim for an AI diplo win, or can slow the other human down with WW to force an AI space win. I think this rule is unfair, I would like the ladder admins to consider changing it. I am not asking this be changed for games in progress, but for new games. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

15-09-2003, 11:19	#3
Lt. Killer M Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: HAWK!. Posts: 4,365	I think it depends on the game: say, both players are at each others throat and don't amount to much all game long. But on player manages to stay ahead in score until an AI gets a culture or UN win - why shouldn't that count as a win? He/She did after all fight for a better score? Admittedly, that is not the real aim of the game, so I think DrA has a good point there! __________________ One more turn..... just one more turn... one MORE!

15-09-2003, 14:29	#5
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	digger, how could you 'throw' the game? The only realistic way for the AI to win is by Diplo or Spacerace. How can you get to that part of the game unless you are competitive. If you make sucha bad mistake the other player would squash you. My point is that the person in the lead can deliberately go for an AI win if they know they can't win themselves. This is in my mind unfair, and if it is possible for anything to be "misused" then this is it... I have a good example too, for why score is a shit measure of performance: Player 1 has 1 or 2 lux's on their half of the world. Player 2 has 7 lux's on their side. Player 2 will always have a higher score, but player 1 may be amazing in even getting to the modern age with only 2 lux'sin their territory. Now player 2 can push for an AI win (defensive stalemates are easy if you go for it - especially since you can drop research to 0 and mobilise at the cost of science buildings). Can anyone tell me how counting them as a draw could be abused? __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

15-09-2003, 14:49	#6
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,493	If the AI wins, both players should be whipped. __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

15-09-2003, 14:51	#7
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Taking my example of why score is not a good representation of how the game is going - you don't even need a disparity as bad as 2 lux's vs 7: if one player has 5 and the other 7, that is almost as bad.... __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

15-09-2003, 10:34	#2
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	I do agree that we could change it for new games. But I'm afraid that also could be misused. I don't have good examples yet, but something tells me that also isn't waterproof. DrA yesterday had a great suggestion for games were the AI wins: let the score count for half. So someone gets/loses about 25 points in these cases.

15-09-2003, 11:39	#4
digger760 King Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Fake Dog Poo Factory. Posts: 1,887	i'm not sure that a draw is such a good idea, what if you made a few bad moves at the start or had a bit of bad luck, you could throw the game. I think if you loose to the AI it is tough titties and highest score wins.

15-09-2003, 15:42	#9
Nightfa11 Part-Timer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA. Posts: 127	I agree with shabbaman, how about if the AI wins, both players get a loss? I'm not sure how fair that is, but I can see someone playing for a draw to avoid a loss, and this eliminates that possibility

15-09-2003, 16:38	#10
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	If the AI wins it should be a loss for both players... Thats the principle, now how to make it work I have no idea yet.... Even anarres solution could be used as a cheap escape, as aggie says... __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">