America and England: true love?

[smalltalk]

Very random and incoherent musings about Utopia.
Also an all-round-about ranting on the state-of-the-world in general:

quote:Ehecatl Atzin
...capitalism, neo-liberalism and imperialism are also failing to give answers... at least to the "developing" world, that has stopped believing in the values the west has tried to implement: democracy, liberty, fraternity.. blah blah blah;... the so-called third world no longer believes in the west, we don't give a fuck about a democratic process because they have proved their failure, ...

Do you blame the very principles here? Or do you blame the West, that has not been able to live up to its own standards?

It's quite a difference.

quote:Gothmog
The problem is that when humans are presented with the option, the vast majority will choose western levels of prosperity.

A decade ago, eastern Germany was facing this question. They choose in favour of western cars, cable TV and having debts on their bank account...

quote:Gothmog
Unfortunately for all of us the world is a tough place, no Garden of Eden. People have never lived in peace, prosperity, and freedom.

Well, here in Germany, nobody has to starve. Even if you choose to drop out, public welfare will supply you to your basic demands: food, dwelling, a washing machine and a TV-set. You might find yourself in short supply of beer, wine and weed though.

Europe has been a rather peaceful place for half a century. And I enjoy lots of liberties when compared to my Chinese or Saudi-arabian co-humans. I'm allowed to pull out the verbal without being put into jail.

quote: Politics and religion trump science every time in the current state of affairs.

Viewed on a large time-scale, it is rather science and a humanistic mind-set that trumped over religion and machiavellian power-politics. Temporarily and local drawbacks not withstanding. Religious people like Martin Luther have open some new paths, so that the scientific/philosphical ideas of Copernicus and Galilei et al. could have been discussed at large. The whole western civilization is based on the unbiased discussion of ideas, where still every participiant has to face fierce, but not necesarily malovelent critizism by his peers.

quote:I was also thinking of our 40 hour work week,

more than 400 years ago, Thomas Moore wrote in his Utopia novel, that 4 hours of work a day should be enough for mankind, if only the real needs of the people were adressed, and no superfluent stuff was produced.

But who is to decide what is superfluent: a certain car? Cosmetics? Defense budget?

Now of course, many people desire to rather drive a Merc or a BMW than a Toyota. Even less people consider going by train...

Isn't it strange, that with all our machines and computers we have to work more that your average Yanomani savage?

What is really necessary?

I realize that population density is much higher now than it was when we were "noble" savages. Rendering hunter-seeker strategies impossible.

About military and defense:

Germany has got more tanks than India. Probably, after the Soviet Union fell apart, Germany has got the worlds greatest tank army!

Likewise, the US are spending more than 1/3 of the world "defense" budget. We Europeans are spending the next 1/3 of it. The whole rest of the world, including
Russia, China, India, Southern America, Africa, Arabia is spending the remaining 1/3.

Now who has to worry?

I don't want my tax to be spent on such issues. I could understand, if the Dutch would prepair against a German invasion. But I really don't see why we Europeans prepare for the onslaught of the Arabs or the Africans by bying more Eurofighters. We got too much money to spare, I feel.

quote:I do not know if humans are capable of living in harmony, either with nature (sustainable development) or with themselves (world peace, heck even local peace). I have seen no evidence that this is the case.

Viewed from a geological time-scale, the human race is quite fresh. It was only yesterday, when we climbed down the trees.

It was only 500 years ago (compared to 15.000.000.000 years of universe age), when Copernicus realized, that the Earth is not the center of the universe. It was only 140 years ago, when Darwin realized the descent of mankind. 100 years age, psychologists opend a door into our unconsciousnes. About the same time, Einstein reshaped our idea of Space and Time.

And so on ...

What I want to say: we have only yet began to understand. We are only on the verge of becoming an intelligent species. Still we are often governed by insticts.

I often use this metaphor:
Imagine the world to be a loave of bread. Human Civilization is like a mould that broke out on various places. The bread is still not entirely covered by the mould by now!

As soon as modern civilization will have reached any place in the world, we are about to see sort of a phase change. We can only destinguish ourselves from the anmimals, if we are able to think in terms of non-linear differential equations as opposed to simple yes/no answers.

Anyway. Friendly cooperation is one of the most efficient tools we have at hand.

quote:anarres
in summary: we're fucked, so enjoy it while it lasts!

This is cultural pessimism. I guess, we would have been fucked more in the ancient times.

I'm not sure, whether the "human condition" is improving, but it is surely not deminishing.

[Gothmog]

I am totally convinced that the human condition is improving. Europe and America are totally unprecidented in terms of the number of people working together, and the amount of peace and levels of prosperity that we have enjoyed in the last 50 years. Even with that, we have been involved in wars and (in America at least) we have people living with hunger. I don't think it is impossible that humans will someday live in harmony with nature and each other, I even have moments of optimism, but if we take history and current affairs as our guide there is little evidence to suggest such a thing.

On pesticides, local acute toxicity in fact has little to do with ecological impact. In general toxic things are also unstable things, and thus don't persist in the environment for long enough to do serious harm. DDT for example was a problem specifically because it is relatively inert, that and it's ability to bioaccumulate.

As for work, I enjoy my work. I think that humans in general are happier when they feel that they are involved in and contributing to something important. Something larger than themselves. To do that does take some input of time, 4 hours a day seems a bare minimum.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

quote:Originally posted by smalltalk
Do you blame the very principles here? Or do you blame the West, that has not been able to live up to its own standards?
It's quite a difference.

It's a mix of the two. On one hand there is the West that has given these values of freedom and democracy to the world, but on the other hand it has made it clear it will not support them outside it's borders. Why can The States and Europe pass legislation protecting their agriculture and industry but when the same legislation is passed by other countries they are imediatly slaped with detering trade and unfair practices? Why can the States pass a 30% tarif on steel imports but boicots Mexico for having a national monopoly on comunications? Ask yourself why has capitalism been so efective in the West but failed so miserably elsewhere, except Japan that has used that same imperialistic model in Asia, I highly doubt it is because those people can't implement it correctly... at the very least it is because those systems of production aren't adecuate to those people, at the most it is because outside influence hasn't let it happen.
So you see, our societies cannot believe in those priciples because they emanate from nations that we've learned not to trust. Anything that comes from the States is viewed with suspition and with a lesser degree the things that come from Europe (except for argentinians... most can't stand England).
And I'n not saying socialism is the way to go, on a very broad view of them, capitalism and socialism tend to the same end; it is the way they get to it that differs. The "third world" needs to implement systems created by them specifically for their societies and stop importing social proyects and ways of production created for societies that have little to do with them. And the West needs to stop exporting these plans as if they where the only way to achieve progress, some values are universal, but the way you implement them is how they differ. Liberty is understood very diferently around the world, from a classroom in Frankfurt to the jungles of Brazil, and people need to be able to implement them how they see fit, not how others think, or think they think , suits them best.

[smalltalk]

quote:Ehecatl Atzin
On one hand there is the West that has given these values of freedom and democracy to the world, but on the other hand it has made it clear it will not support them outside it's borders.

Yes, listening to some politicians, one might get the impression that they talk about our freedom to sell McDonalds burgers, Coca-cola and DaimlerChrysler cars to the rest of the world.

Also, it has become fashionable to defend one's own country abroad, and not on one's own turf.

quote:Why can The States and Europe pass legislation protecting their agriculture and industry but when the same legislation is passed by other countries they are imediatly slaped with detering trade and unfair practices? Why can the States pass a 30% tarif on steel imports but boicots Mexico for having a national monopoly on comunications?

The answer is of course hipocrasy or selfishness, probably both.
Bert Brecht once said:

Food comes before morals.

Sometimes I wonder, if not also cars and color TV would come before morals.

quote:Ask yourself why has capitalism been so efective in the West...

Effective? For more than 100 years, we have been trying to minimize the ill effects of capitalism. Karl Marx and other communists get a lot of bashing. But in fact, their ideas helped to bring a basic welfare system into existence, only nobody wants to credit them. Environmentalists also get a lot of bashing, but their ideas helped that our nature is recovering from dead rivers and acid rain forrests.

Could I name positive effects of capitalism? Maybe having personal super computers available, that allow you to play CivIII on huge maps with reasonable response time.

quote:...but failed so miserably elsewhere,

I am quite sure, the western capitalists had their local collaborators. I assume people to be basically the same everywhere. A capitalist system might have emergered everywhere without interference from outside.

Otoh, my friends, those who have seen more of the world than I have, always tell me I should travel more, to get some other perspectives...

quote: So you see, our societies cannot believe in those priciples because they emanate from nations that we've learned not to trust.

I'm not going to trust my own nation, too.

About democracy: it's not a magic wand, it is fallible. Hitler came to power by democratic means. There is a saying: To trust is good, but to check is better.

quote:except for argentinians... most can't stand England

How come?

quote:Darwin, Voyage of the Beatle
After the pessession of these miserable islands had been contested by France, Spain and England, they were left unihabited. The government of Buenos Ayres then sold them to a private individual, but likewise used them as the old Spain had done before, for a penal settlement. England claimed her right and seized them. The Englishmen who was left in charge of the flag was consequently murdered. A British officer was next sent, unsupported by any power: and when he arrived, we found him in charge of a population, of which rather more than half were runaway rebels and murderers.

The theater is worthy of the scenes acted on it. An undulating land, with a desolate and wretched aspect, is everywhere covered by a peaty soil and wiry grass, of one monotonous brown colour. ...

What Darwin didn't know back then: there is oil!

quote:Ehecatl Atzin
Liberty is understood very diferently around the world, from a classroom in Frankfurt to the jungles of Brazil...

I don't know about the jungles of Brazil. (Though I know a girl that has been there, irritating the local christian missionary by running topless.)

But I do know about my classrooms and how liberty was understood there. We had a female teacher in elementary school that still used to use a stick to punish children. None of the other teachers would speak up, nor one of our parents. She was also a teacher of religion. About that time I started to feel, or rather realize, that grown-ups could be damned liars.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

quote:Originally posted by smalltalk
...also, it has become fashionable to defend one's own country abroad, and not on one's own turf.

Well, internal affairs of each country rarely make the front page of the international community, unless of course it affects them in some way. So most of the native-politician-bashing ocurs in other arenas

quote:
Effective? ...could I name positive effects of capitalism? Maybe having personal super computers available, that allow you to play CivIII on huge maps with reasonable response time.

Well, that's efective. That's what capitalism is about, it isn't a religious or a social structure system, it's a system about the means of production and economic structures emanated from a society that was ready and able for that type of system. Capitalism can't give you happiness or love or even a good night's sleep; it can give you cars and burgers and supercomputers, it gives you financial wealth and nothing more. So on that stance, capitalism has worked for the west, and those societies have learned to mold it and take answers to tehir questions from it, but after all, it's because they created it.

quote: ...a capitalist system might have emergered everywhere without interference from outside.

Could be, but look at the production systems if native americans (from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego) it's more of a socialist system where the means of production are owned by the community not by a few and the wealth of that production is divided among the community, not, again, by a few. What course that would have taken withouth the interferance of the european invasion of 1492 we'll never know.

quote:About democracy: it's not a magic wand, it is fallible. Hitler came to power by democratic means. There is a saying: To trust is good, but to check is better.

That's the problem, it was sold as a magic wand and sadly most if not all nations (or leaders) believed that and tried to apply western democracy to non-western societies. The Americas aren't given to "check" their politians, it's very complex in that way. We like to feel the goverment is doing it's job without us pushing it and checking it; historically, there has been a vote of confidence given to leaders in hopes of him/her doing a good job regardless wether there is an eye on him/her or not. This checking to see if the goverment is doing what is supposed to be doing is a new concept in these societies, as a whole, and it's cumbersome to follow it up. How do I explain this... southamerican societies think it's not their job to put their noses into the goverments business, it isn't considered their business, it's the goverment's. It's an odd mix of respect/confidence and tradition. Of course many many leaders have taken advantage of this and done with entire nations what they see fit... thankfully southamerican societies are learning to get involved in the course their nations are taking, they are taking a more active role in the process, slowly and painfully, but it's starting.

quote:
What Darwin didn't know back then: there is oil!

We're talking about the Malvinas Islands right?

quote:
I don't know about the jungles of Brazil. (Though I know a girl that has been there, irritating the local christian missionary by running topless.)...I started to feel, or rather realize, that grown-ups could be damned liars.

I'm sure the local christian missionary was also irritated by the topless women that live in the jungle and tried to change that too... but don't get me started on missionaries... Yep, grown-ups can be damned good liars, especially those with power.