The Tower of Babel - Open Thread

[Socrates]

The game has started at last ! It would be nice to find a fitting name for this game, instead of "TAM PBEM". Any idea welcome.

We should also name our saves differently. I propose : "[name_of_game]-[number_of_turn][letter_of_roster]". For example : "TAMSuperPBEM-001a" would be Justus II's next save (since this one is turn 0). Letters would go from "a" to "e". OK for everyone ?

I also tested the number of beakers, and it corresponds to what it should be : thanks Justus II for setting this up perfectly.

BTW Justus II, could you post here some essential info about the beginning of the game, like :
- impassable terrain for what units ;
- unsettlable terrain ;
- possible changes in content people in Demi-God ;
- other things I can't think of now...
I already know workers cost 20 shields, and settlers cost <s>40 shields</s> 50 shields and require 3 citizens !! I also saw that marsh is impassable for our first units, and desert is unsettlable (making my agr trait less useful, but hey, if it is as strong as in the epic game... ).

We should also start a roster thread, like we did for the Swimming Pool, are you for that ? Or do you only want to use Matrix's roster program ?

EDIT : Justus II, is there a sheet for techs' values ? We can't know what is the value for each tech, that could help us to trade, even if between humans we're not talking about cents...

[grs]

I would prefer turn tracker - I think it is far superior to anything you can do in a forum.

[Stapel]

I have been playing a bit today (solo).

Why do cities flip like thatr? No other civ near, no foreign citizens: WHAM! FLIP!

Weird....

[grs]

Hmm...I played some Solo moves too, but had no flip.

[Justus II]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov


BTW Justus II, could you post here some essential info about the beginning of the game, like :
- impassable terrain for what units ;
- unsettlable terrain ;
- possible changes in content people in Demi-God ;
- other things I can't think of now...
I already know workers cost 20 shields, and settlers cost <s>40 shields</s> 50 shields and require 3 citizens !! I also saw that marsh is impassable for our first units, and desert is unsettlable (making my agr trait less useful, but hey, if it is as strong as in the epic game... ).

EDIT : Justus II, is there a sheet for techs' values ? We can't know what is the value for each tech, that could help us to trade, even if between humans we're not talking about cents...

OK, I'll try to answer what I can. The spreadsheet (I've uploaded it again below) lists what terrain is unsettleable by the lines for City (yes/no) and colony. Cities cannot be built in Desert, Tundra, Mountain, Forest, Swamp. Colonies can be built in all but Swamp and Marsh. Most units ARE considered wheeled in this mod, so only a select few units can enter Mountains, Swamp, or Marsh. Those that can are basically the archer-type line of units and workers, (and barbs), they are all denoted on the TAM-Stats page with the letter M in the abilities column. A few UU's also have the ability, like Pelatasts, Dacians, may be others.

Note: Swamps/Marsh cannot be cleared until a late tech (Architecture - Second Era), so it will be a while before you can access those. Also, note that Cities CAN be built in Marsh, but settlers can't enter, so you would have to have a worker enter, build a road, then move the settler in to settle. (Awkward, but it simulates the difficulties in settling those areas).

As for your Desert/Agri mention, not only can you not settle them, but Desert can't be irrigated either. (It can be mined or roaded). This was intentional, as the AI otherwise floods the desert, and is offset by having multiple Oasis and plains tiles along the edge of the desert (a mined Oasis is a pretty good tile).

Content citizens should be the same as normal Demigod. Be aware that this map has less than 8 luxuries available, IIRC, and they are scattered, so it's unlikely for any one civ to access more than 3-4. Also, there are no improvements that multiply the luxuries effect (like the standard market), except for the Nubians who aren't in this game, and I think there may be a wonder with that effect. So happiness in general is a little scarcer, but city sizes are smaller as well.

If you don't already know, city sizes are:
Town: 1-4, City:5-8, Metro:9+. Aquaducts come with Architecture (early 2nd age), Metros with Bath House (Medicine), 3rd Age. So founding on fresh water is even more vital, building settlers that take 3 citizens out of towns capped at size 4 is tough!! (But it does limit the AI's REX tendencies as well).

As for Stapel's comment on city flips, the main cause of that is the lack of early culture. Other than the Palace, most civs will have little or no early culture until the end of the 1st Age (Temples), and they are difficult and expensive (require cult site first). Meanwhile, Wonders (AI-specific and Great) generate a TON of culture (most are 10cpt, and at 50yrs/turn double quickly), so if one civ builds an early wonder or 2, they can really rack up cultural pressure quickly. Again, that was an intentional decision of Thamis, he wanted to emphasize the importance of early wonders.

Any other questions, let me know, I will be away tomorrow during the day, but will be back by evening. I hope everyone has fun!

[Socrates]

OK, thanks Justus II ! Some remarks about your answers...

Stapel told me on MSN that he faced situations where there shouldn't be any possibility of a culture flip, according to Civ rules (seen in anarres's utility). Can you explain this ? And Stapel can you describe precisely what you encoutered ? From what I understood, Stapel had no foreigners in the cities, and no neighbours around, so there shouldn't have been a way for a flip to occur.

Can someone explain me the difference between marsh and swamp in the real world ? I'd like to know, so as to differenciate them better when I play. Noted for the terrain-abilities of the units, it will help us to not do stupid mistakes in the beginning.

I agree with your remarks about the AIs settling everywhere, and know we had to do something about it. I bet I'll have to forget about placing fair cities to the south of Babylon, in the desert... And too bad we can't irrigate the desert, there is no clear distinction between desert and flood plain. But it is to be noted that, if I'm not mistaken, hills can be either irrigated or mined (less effectively), like in the good Civ2 days. I haven't seen any oasis along the Euphrates, when I explored a little before this game (but I won't again, I want some surprise !), I hope there are some, oasis give 4 more food !!! An oasis on an irrigated flood plain is... 8 food !!

Today I saw that a city is 5-8 citizens, and a metro is 9+ citizens... Scary. Your remark about pumping settlers out of 4-pop cities ONLY is true : tough.

[akots]

IIRC, Kolchian wonder also multiplies the luxury rate in a city where it is built which is somewhat undocumented. Also, Raiders can enter mountains but not sure if they are available to any civs you play.

What is extremely annoying regarding non-settling in the desert is that when there appears a barbarian camp (near Saba or north of Caspian sea, all free units from all countries go there and sign RoP with each other. This actually results in the fact that not-so-phony wars happen with very remote opponents. For example, Nubia declared on me (Colchis) and in about 15 turns there appeared with a huge stack of about 50 Nubian units. That has been a bit unexpected. Also, these "free AI units" constantly move back and forth since the desert around Massagetae is large and once a camp is dispersed, they turn back and when a new one appears, they start to go there again. This has been extremely annoying. But you wont see these kinds of things probably in your map.

Combat system has huge pecularities as well. Just need a decent calculator to evaluate the chances properly but I'm not sure about the defence bonuses since there might be a few errors in the civilopedia about them. Also, retreat ability is somewhat tweaked due to that large number of hit points. Another feature is that sometimes stronger units have fewere hit points and are becoming actually weaker after upgrade because most of them are regulars. For example, Broadswordsmen have attack of 8 but regulars start 5 hp iirc whereas Raiders (upgraded units) have 4hp for regulars and attack 10 which makes them basically even in attacking chances. But Raiders can enslave (this auxilliary warriors are great for sacrifice and increase in culture since each brings 60 culture and slave brings only 40 culture) and enter impassable terrain. Same goes for Elephants which have 3 hit points. This is not documented in civilopedia at all unfortunately.

Also, many wonders depend on government type. For example Pyramids. They need Theocracy and after you revolt from Theocracy they just disappear. Never tried to revolt back, may be the wonders will reappear.

But this is my limited experience on a large size default map with only one game played so far as Kolchis. Won 20K cultural victory with the help of few wonders by massive sacrificing.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
... Your remark about pumping settlers out of 4-pop cities ONLY is true : tough.

This is a very complicated issue with granaries in cities on the river. Should they be built or not? Actually, benefit from Granaries is somewhat limited in any case since double food is required to grow from size 4 to size 8. But this might actually make granaries twice as important imo. And then size 8 can drop to size 5 after building the settler still keeping the second half of the food bin full. But with cities not on the river, they can be pretty much useless since there are no "settler factories" or "worker pumps" in this scenario.

[Stapel]

I indeed encountered 3 (THREE) flips without having any tiles under AI influence, AND without having foreign citizens.

I have more questions:
-Why can't I trade hellinistic techs?
-How can I upgrade units?
-Why do I have a 1cpt library for several turns, yet 0 culture in this city (a conquered city, it has two foreigners, ans 1 homie).

[ERIKK]

All should always use the turn tracker. It is the only way to keep track of the save.

The naming convention which is used now is good IMO.

This is a great thread, I already learned some new things reading this thread.