I hate rules but a clear bottom line is needed - Page 3

Beam · 04-01-2004, 14:08

Just trying to group what rules there are:

1. Civ embedded, that is the rules that come with the sav. Normally standard but for example addition of an extra unit by the mapmaker is prediscussed. Anything is possible if players agree.

2. Exploits, an uptodate overview can come in handy. Is there one?

3. Human behaviour rules, this could be anything between zero and the full set of RBCiv rules. Typical examples are: no MA and MPP vs. the human (isn't this an assumed one??), war is not declared until a certain date or tech.

4. Reporting rules, i.e. the failed spy attempt and human vs. human battle reports are basically the ones. Wonders and diplo agreements can be retrieved from the respective screens. I do not really see a need to have those mandatory, it could be agreed between players however.

So the list of "assumed" rules can be very short, everything else to be agreed between players imo.

anarres · 04-01-2004, 14:37

The only rule I assume (which I won't anymore

) is that battle reports are given for human-human wars. I also like to agree to tell about failed spy missions, but that's not a huge problem if it is left out.

To be honest, anything not explicitly agreed before you start isn't a rule. The battle reports I would count as an exception, as to me it's essential to the game, but if anyone I was playing refused to give them it would still be my fault for not agreeing the rule before the game. Which reminds me - can we agree to battle reports in our game please Beam?

Beam · 04-01-2004, 14:58

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Which reminds me - can we agree to battle reports in our game please Beam?

Is there a recent list of what are considered exploits?

Stapel · 09-01-2004, 08:40

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by anarres

The only rule I assume (which I won't anymore

) is that battle reports are given for human-human wars.

I see no reason to make any more reports than Human - Human battle reports. I don't get the point of reveiling the failures of my secret service

. I agree with what PP said about it I think.

Like Beam, I seriously dislike too many rules.
Special rules on exploits (I hate exploits) can be made at the beginning of a PBEM

Skyfish · 09-01-2004, 08:59

To all : I am working on a definite list of rules and exploits for ladder pbems that will be a live document.

@ Stapel : If you make an attempt at stealing an AI and you fail, the AI *will* know for sure and you have to pay the consequences. Why should it be any different in Human v Human ?
If you attempt to steal an AI tech you, of course, never have to tell anyone. I really dont know how this came about it makes no sense...
The fact you dont get notified is because of a bug or implementation problem of PBEM turn sequence (just like Player 1 getting no Wonder pop-up messages).
IMO Spying is *broken* according to me in PBEM because it is so cheap and a tech leader can get his whole game ruined on a lucky steal from his backward opponent (Ithink you would knwo about that ?

)
Why make it even worse ?

Stapel · 09-01-2004, 09:03

So, what if I try to steal your tech, I fail, and I tell you I tried and failed.

What are you going to do with that info? Call my mother

What do you do with regular sologame info when an AI fails and there comes a pop-up?

I am missing a certain feature? I don't see a reason to know, thus no reason to tell.

Skyfish · 09-01-2004, 09:11

Well there are indeed *many* things that can be done Stapel !
And what I do with the information is my problem, not yours.
You are missing a certain feature indeed.

It is a definite feature of Civ3 that your opponent (AI or Human) knows about
any failed Spying mission perfomed on their empire. It is not intended that this feature
is not available in PBEM games and it is very easily replaced by simple fair play of telling your opponent.
Not complying to it is an exploit, sorry.
If both players wish NOT to talk about spying missions , that can be something agreed beforehand.
Not the other way round!

I dont understand your point about "regular solo" games, we are talking about PBEMs here.

Plux · 09-01-2004, 09:18

Stapel, I think that to know about your opponent's effort to steal is to some degree valuable in that it tells you something about his desperation to get back into the tech race. It's no jaw-dropper, but I for one would like to know if it happened to me.

Stapel · 09-01-2004, 09:34

My point: what can I possibly do with the information someone spied on me, but failed? Either a Human in a PBEM, or an AI in a regular solo game, or an AI in a PBEM game?

Since I still think the answer to that question is nothing (please enlighten me

), I don't see the point in being obliged to share this info.

Skyfish · 09-01-2004, 09:41

Stapel, Plux just gave you a very good reason why its important to *know*, you are only focused on what you can *do* !
A huge part of winning a PBEM is about "knowing" because with the right information you can then *do* the right things and win !

But more importantly, you are missing the many ways spying missions can be countered ! Do you really want me to explain here ?

04-01-2004, 14:08	#21
Beam c00l b33r Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beat 'm up Scotty!. Lives in the Lands that are Nether. Posts: 5,094	Just trying to group what rules there are: 1. Civ embedded, that is the rules that come with the sav. Normally standard but for example addition of an extra unit by the mapmaker is prediscussed. Anything is possible if players agree. 2. Exploits, an uptodate overview can come in handy. Is there one? 3. Human behaviour rules, this could be anything between zero and the full set of RBCiv rules. Typical examples are: no MA and MPP vs. the human (isn't this an assumed one??), war is not declared until a certain date or tech. 4. Reporting rules, i.e. the failed spy attempt and human vs. human battle reports are basically the ones. Wonders and diplo agreements can be retrieved from the respective screens. I do not really see a need to have those mandatory, it could be agreed between players however. So the list of "assumed" rules can be very short, everything else to be agreed between players imo. __________________ That was a pretty good gamble. -- Scotty, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2821.5, Episode 14 Linux never looked this good!

04-01-2004, 14:37	#22
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	The only rule I assume (which I won't anymore ) is that battle reports are given for human-human wars. I also like to agree to tell about failed spy missions, but that's not a huge problem if it is left out. To be honest, anything not explicitly agreed before you start isn't a rule. The battle reports I would count as an exception, as to me it's essential to the game, but if anyone I was playing refused to give them it would still be my fault for not agreeing the rule before the game. Which reminds me - can we agree to battle reports in our game please Beam? __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

09-01-2004, 08:59	#25
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	To all : I am working on a definite list of rules and exploits for ladder pbems that will be a live document. @ Stapel : If you make an attempt at stealing an AI and you fail, the AI will know for sure and you have to pay the consequences. Why should it be any different in Human v Human ? If you attempt to steal an AI tech you, of course, never have to tell anyone. I really dont know how this came about it makes no sense... The fact you dont get notified is because of a bug or implementation problem of PBEM turn sequence (just like Player 1 getting no Wonder pop-up messages). IMO Spying is broken according to me in PBEM because it is so cheap and a tech leader can get his whole game ruined on a lucky steal from his backward opponent (Ithink you would knwo about that ? ) Why make it even worse ? __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

09-01-2004, 09:03	#26
Stapel Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,196	So, what if I try to steal your tech, I fail, and I tell you I tried and failed. What are you going to do with that info? Call my mother What do you do with regular sologame info when an AI fails and there comes a pop-up? I am missing a certain feature? I don't see a reason to know, thus no reason to tell. __________________ Vrooooooooooommmmmm Stapel doesn't like cricket

09-01-2004, 09:11	#27
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Well there are indeed many things that can be done Stapel ! And what I do with the information is my problem, not yours. You are missing a certain feature indeed. It is a definite feature of Civ3 that your opponent (AI or Human) knows about any failed Spying mission perfomed on their empire. It is not intended that this feature is not available in PBEM games and it is very easily replaced by simple fair play of telling your opponent. Not complying to it is an exploit, sorry. If both players wish NOT to talk about spying missions , that can be something agreed beforehand. Not the other way round! I dont understand your point about "regular solo" games, we are talking about PBEMs here. __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

09-01-2004, 09:18	#28
Plux King Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,213	Stapel, I think that to know about your opponent's effort to steal is to some degree valuable in that it tells you something about his desperation to get back into the tech race. It's no jaw-dropper, but I for one would like to know if it happened to me.

09-01-2004, 09:34	#29
Stapel Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,196	My point: what can I possibly do with the information someone spied on me, but failed? Either a Human in a PBEM, or an AI in a regular solo game, or an AI in a PBEM game? Since I still think the answer to that question is nothing (please enlighten me ), I don't see the point in being obliged to share this info. __________________ Vrooooooooooommmmmm Stapel doesn't like cricket

09-01-2004, 09:41	#30
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Stapel, Plux just gave you a very good reason why its important to know, you are only focused on what you can do ! A huge part of winning a PBEM is about "knowing" because with the right information you can then do the right things and win ! But more importantly, you are missing the many ways spying missions can be countered ! Do you really want me to explain here ? __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">