ANNOUNCEMENT

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by col
... It's a game. No-one died. Get over it.

I beg to disagree. Have not posted any verse at cdz yet. Here we go:

Game of life has just begun
Played by fox against raccoon:
Run to catch the rising sun
Then to stop the falling moon.

There are not that many tries,
There is not that much to gain.
He who wins must play again,
He who loses always dies.

[Kingreno]

I support Kemal 100% and feel exactly the same way.

I have evidence of manipulation of saves in my game vs. sky as well but besides that I would like to add some words in reaction to every post that states that this is "just a game".

Sure. This is just a game. Compared to people in eastern Sudan, Irak, Kashmir or so we do live in heaven. We complain about cheating, they have no food ect...But that is not how it works! You cannot simplify everything just by claiming something else to be worse.
What happened here, and I could not possibly write it better then kemal did but I need to say it again, must be dealt with in the most deterimined of ways.
Why? well, I for one am disgusted by the fact that I have played 100+ hours of civ in, all be it, an enjoyable game, to later find out it was one big scam! No test of power, intelligence and determination, just "the hand of god" to decide who wins and loses. This is a disgrace! No-one has even the smallest right to lure others in to this sort of false belief. And regrettably, something like this takes away more or less everything that a person may has to offer on the good side. The fact that Skyfish has not even bothered to explain himself publicly makes his case even weaker IMHO.

The community, to elaborate even further, and it needs to be done, is being hit hard. Yesterday when I talked to Erikk about this (sorry, just an example erikk) we were openly thinking like "where and who could ALSO be cheating". That is so NOT the thing we want. I feel no need to go on about more consequences do I?

As for the future, I seriously doubt whether Sky has one here at CDZ. Reputations hang around long. And that is just my opinion.

[Matrix]

Ok, let's summarize:
It's just a game. But it's also all we do here. All 'emotions' should be placed in this perspective.
Cheating is the deadliest of sins for gaming, but then again, it happens just too often. He's not a bad man, and those who've met him in real life [u]know</u> he isn't.

[Melifluous]

quote:Originally posted by Kingreno

As for the future, I seriously doubt whether Sky has one here at CDZ. Reputations hang around long. And that is just my opinion.

Damn right that is your opinion and I have mine.
This site is more than just a PBEM site I think.
It was a place where some people decided to take refuge from the restrictive atmosphere (for us) of a certain other forum.
We had found that we had similar enough views to get on ok and enough differences to make it interesting.
Skyfish was one of those first people that came to the site and we have, most of us, met in real life and got on well...

The game side has been dealt with. Punishment enough I think.
I understand that a lot of effort went into what you call a flawed game... Spolit now? maybe, but at the time was it fun? You bet your ass. I can honestly say that my best games are from a position of weakness. Too often we strive to crush all before us, but when did you last lose an SP game?

So skyfish may have artificially raised the challenge for you but i say that a few hours of regret now were more than payed for by a 100hours of fun.

To suggest that his future at CDZ is at an end is insulting and not the direction that I thought this forum was intended for...

Melifluous

[Aggie]

This is one of the worst things that can happen to CDZ. Anarres and ProPain had to do what they did but we are severly injured. We don't need to debate that Skyfish caused this. I don't agree with Meli's "it's just a game, get over it". We are all entitled to have our own thoughts and feelings about it. The ones that feel betrayed have every right, because this is just what happened. I for one don't like to be told how to react!

Kingreno states that Skyfish's case weakens because he doesn't explain himself. I don't know how it could be weaker than it is now. The evidence is pretty convincing. But I would accept an apology. I'm probably more forgiving than others, but I hope that others can understand that.

What now? I'd like to continue playing for the ladder and I will trust that my opponents play a fair game. Be warned: I play for fun, not for a result in the ladder.

[Kingreno]

@Meli:

I must emphasize that it was absolutely mot the case that Skyfish raises a challenge for me, or other players! The outcome of the game lay entirely in his hands!! He wants to beat Kemal one time, he beats him. Hey wants to get Dan higher up the ladder, he loses from him (no offense meant). If there is a need for a raised challenge give one player an extra setler. Not like this. And as for SP-challenges, I am happy to admit I still lose quite a few.
Naturaly before this all happened I bet everyone enjoyed the game. But these things do work backwards. As in any game. If your UT2004 mate who you always play happens to have manipulated his Rocketlauncher for permanent Quaddamage, I wonder how you feel? Especially if he seems to use the Rocketlauncher when he wants, and not consequently. Divine intervention.
His future. Well, I will explain a bit more. I just seriously do not see a realistic future here taken into account the way we are and the way he is. SF is a proud person, and perhaps too proud to come back. Regardless off the numerous good things he has done for several members here, 90% (or so) of his activities still involved PBEM. I have also spoken about this with many members and frankly almost everyone indicated that they would not play him ever again. This may, in time, change, I know that. The oil is still on the fire now, the future will tell us more.
Therefore, I am trying not to suggest that SF leave this place. It is just what I think what will happen, not what I hope, what I think.

[Lt. Killer M]

@ Sky:

you're my friend, and Civ is only a game!


@ others:
I have had similar evidence for a NUMBER of other players for a while (actually, it mosty concerned evident reloading to re-arrange combats) - someone was optimizing results.

so what?

OK, I might lose a game because of this - or not. And if I then beat them I am the happier

but this its the reason why I withdrew from the ladder (@ irigy: sorry, you were too good an excuse)

@PP and anar: no, I will not tell who, when, what.

[Socrates]

Oh, Killer, I understand your decision a bit more now. Still, if you still play our game, I'm very happy.

If Skyfish is still around here after a while, I will surely be happy to play him again (you can't fool people twice, uh ?), but only if he really tells if he cheated (even once) in our game (which I don't believe, but you never know). And I'll keep my savegames for future analysis, just in case.

As for his future here, I don't have a clear opinion. I feel he must understand he has done something wrong, but I hope CDZ will be the place of forgiveness and happiness.

The thing I'm starting to be angry at is the fact that he hasn't talked about it to anyone yet (that we know of). This makes it worse IMHO. I'm sure he feels bad about it, but I'd hope that a man like him could take his responsabilities, I mean, he's not one of those shameful teens !! If Skyfish explains it all and apologies, he'll be already half-forgiven in my heart. I know it's hard to do (to come confessing), I would probably be ill at doing so, but he should talk here, all the more as it directly concerns many people here.

[Melifluous]

quote:Originally posted by Kingreno
[brTherefore, I am trying not to suggest that SF leave this place. It is just what I think what will happen, not what I hope, what I think.

Ah OK, that clears it up a bit for me, I thought you were suggesting that we not be Skyfish's friend or some lame ass school yard thing.

I personally hope that he does come back, it is a rare and strange thing in this life to find people that truly make you laugh and Skyfish was one of the

Oh and aggie?

quote: I don't agree with Meli's "it's just a game, get over it".

I was quoting Col, but am more than happy to take the credit for such a great mans words []

Melifluous

[Beam]

Imo anarres and Propain took the right approach, i.e. analyze and allow Sky to come with an explanation. Since he didn't (yet) it is logical to take actions.

A lot has been said about this situation and it leads me to the question: what makes winning PBEMs and the ladder so important that ppl are driven into editing savs? We aren't playing for money here and otherwise it only can be because of an imagined social hierarchy or something like that. Well, that last thing certainly does not apply to me. I am at CDZ for fun and care more about an exciting game rather than winning the game.

I realize however that there are people who take the game more seriously than I do and I understand their points, specially in relation to the time spend on playing turns in a not so honourable game.

Matrix mentioned cheating in the GOTM and we had some of that in the Tourney as well. There is a key difference here however and that is that most of us know more of each other than just how good or bad we play, even have met personally. That for me means it is a little more than "it's just a game". Having said that: I play board- and cardgames with friends of mine as well and indeed sometimes there is cheating. I am not approving that but it does not mean I do not talk to that person anymore.

So, I really hope that Sky will come with a reaction soon and give an explanation on the why, apologizes and promises not to do it again. In that case some of his ban could even be reliefed but that is imo and not for me to decide.