great no-AI PBEM - Page 3

akots · 30-06-2004, 18:41

Since there is no AI, the Emperor level might be sufficient. Further increase in difficulty would just increase corruption and research time without altering essential game features, IMHO.

Regarding traits: Saefaring is a must to have, so should be enabled to all players. IMHO, two other traits can be either selected from the existing combination or adjusted by the individual player requests for a total of three unique traits. Viking indeed are overpowered not because of traits but because of berserks and longships. Removing either of these or banning the Viking completely would be a good idea. Another solution would be to have amphibious assault ability for MDI and knights like it is in AoD Conquest scenario. It would be then a very gory and messy game!

However, if only two traits per civ are permitted, it would be not so easy to balance the eight human players. IMHO, three traits of choice can be better. These can be all the same for all players, like industrious and commerical to speed up the movement through the turns. Or may be make all civs industrious and seafaring and add a third trait of choice? Or make it even four: three default traits would be seafaring, agricultural, and industrious with another one to choose from based on personal preferences? Or give all traits to everyone?

Regarding the game speed point. Just wanted to discuss a possibility of accelearted production turned on. And if I may suggest to have high landmass. This might be a major pain in the neck for the mapmaker however. Then, increased ship movement would not be that important but still cheap harbors are essential. Don't know, this might really unbalance the game.

Last and very important question. How to handle players who are holding the save and not playing within 24 hours without warning the others? Yellow card for 10 turns; if another yellow card within these 10 turns then the player gets red card...

What then? Two red cards and the player is skipped for a turn or is replaced? Or something else? Also, posting in the game thread after mailing the save is a must IMHO. RL is sometimes rude to people but the game has to move. It cannot continue for years, the players would just lose interest.

Socrates · 30-06-2004, 22:31

I'd rather not have accelerated production turned on, I just don't feel like playing with it. Don't wanna feel in a online MP game.

About warning people, well, I think it's best to have a game master, who will have to receive a mail from each player each turn : each time you receive a turn, send a mail to the GM (preferably player #1), and then play your turn, and send it via mail to the next player. If the save is lost at some point, then the GM will deal with it, but I hope we won't have much of that, because after all, this is THE place for PBEMs...

I wouldn't want the game to be really tweaked, it's a pain to remember the little different details in each game, so I'd rather not tweak too much. I prefer to see how people feel about civ choice and civ traits. So people : if you could tell your preference for your civ, and what you think about traits and tweaks. I need everyone's input !!

As for me, I'd like to play as the Byzantines or the English or the Dutch, which wouldn't need any tweak.

Banzai · 01-07-2004, 08:17

I'll take Portugal - I've never played them before.
Although the expansionistic trait is not very usefull in an archipelago game, I still want to give it a shot.
At least I will be able to beat the Spanish and the Dutch..

Banzai!

anarres · 01-07-2004, 20:46

I will play any civ, but if everyone else is seafaring I want to be seafaring too

akots · 01-07-2004, 21:48

The problem with 8 players is that there are only 7 seafaring civilizations and if Vikings are out this leaves 2 players for non-seafaring civs which would be a great disadvantage on this kind of map IMHO. Hence was the idea of having 3 or even 4 or all 6 traits or no traits at all.

anarres · 01-07-2004, 23:02

Well, how about if you choose a non-seafaring civ you can swap an existing trait for seafaring?

Beam · 01-07-2004, 23:06

It is obvious there is an issue with Civ-traits, but as Kemal said removing them takes away a very charming aspect of the game. It is also obvious that Seafaring is by far the strongest trait on a pelago map and we can go either way:
- Give all Civs Seafaring as a 3rd trait, which means that some Civs need a different 3rd trait because they already have Seafaring OR eliminate those Civs from the game.
- Eliminate Seafaring from the game and either replace Civ with Seafaring with another trait or reduce all Civs to one trait not being seafaring.

Easiest is to remove Seafaring Civs as a choice.

Otherwise I'd say focus on giving all AI Seafaring as 3rd and discuss what the 3rd trait could be for Civs that already have Seafaring.

akots · 01-07-2004, 23:51

Also, expansionist seems to be the most useless trait in this kind of map unless map makers deliberately throws in some huts for expansionist players.

Re 3 traits, for example, Spain can be religious and commerical (like in PTW), and seafaring. Carthage can be industrious and commercial and England expansionist (rather useless IMHO) and commercial plus to seafaring. But what about Dutch, Byzantine, and Portugal? Just make them all commercial as a third trait? Which they indeed are at least to a certain extent. I'd like to take seafaring Ottomans or Persia then with Industrious and Scientific traits.

I have also another question: Do we all get iron? And/or horses? And equal number of luxuries in the vicinity? And more or less balanced start in terms of food?

Socrates · 02-07-2004, 00:57

As already said, I wouldn't want a game that is too tweaked. There is a problem for people with a foreign version (but I think I'm the only one in this case). I first have to find out to what extent I can have the game tweaked. I would like someone to mail me a few saves with successive modifications, so as I can know if I can play without any problem.

I think we would like to have different starting locations, but all in all the same balance of food, shields and commerce, and this also goes for strategic and luxury resources. Aggie will do an excellent job, I'm sure of it.

Well, no need to brainstorm more if we can solve the problem quickly. Maybe someone wants to pick a non-seafearing civ, in which case there is no problem at all. It all depends on people's choice ; after all, someone may have a unique strategy for this game, which doesn't require a strong naval presence... I don't know (hey, heard about OCC, 5CC, agricultural and industrious Mayan enslavers, Sumerian enkidus ?...). I don't want anyone to be fooled by this : you can all pick your civ as you wish. But if we can hear from the rest of the future players, particularly on this issue, it would help the debate.

Aggie · 02-07-2004, 06:57

Non-seafaring civs that can build curraghs can be an OK choice I'd say (needing Alphabet). The curraghs will be slower, of course.

30-06-2004, 18:41	#21
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	Since there is no AI, the Emperor level might be sufficient. Further increase in difficulty would just increase corruption and research time without altering essential game features, IMHO. Regarding traits: Saefaring is a must to have, so should be enabled to all players. IMHO, two other traits can be either selected from the existing combination or adjusted by the individual player requests for a total of three unique traits. Viking indeed are overpowered not because of traits but because of berserks and longships. Removing either of these or banning the Viking completely would be a good idea. Another solution would be to have amphibious assault ability for MDI and knights like it is in AoD Conquest scenario. It would be then a very gory and messy game! However, if only two traits per civ are permitted, it would be not so easy to balance the eight human players. IMHO, three traits of choice can be better. These can be all the same for all players, like industrious and commerical to speed up the movement through the turns. Or may be make all civs industrious and seafaring and add a third trait of choice? Or make it even four: three default traits would be seafaring, agricultural, and industrious with another one to choose from based on personal preferences? Or give all traits to everyone? Regarding the game speed point. Just wanted to discuss a possibility of accelearted production turned on. And if I may suggest to have high landmass. This might be a major pain in the neck for the mapmaker however. Then, increased ship movement would not be that important but still cheap harbors are essential. Don't know, this might really unbalance the game. Last and very important question. How to handle players who are holding the save and not playing within 24 hours without warning the others? Yellow card for 10 turns; if another yellow card within these 10 turns then the player gets red card... What then? Two red cards and the player is skipped for a turn or is replaced? Or something else? Also, posting in the game thread after mailing the save is a must IMHO. RL is sometimes rude to people but the game has to move. It cannot continue for years, the players would just lose interest. __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)

30-06-2004, 22:31	#22
Socrates Emperor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,946	I'd rather not have accelerated production turned on, I just don't feel like playing with it. Don't wanna feel in a online MP game. About warning people, well, I think it's best to have a game master, who will have to receive a mail from each player each turn : each time you receive a turn, send a mail to the GM (preferably player #1), and then play your turn, and send it via mail to the next player. If the save is lost at some point, then the GM will deal with it, but I hope we won't have much of that, because after all, this is THE place for PBEMs... I wouldn't want the game to be really tweaked, it's a pain to remember the little different details in each game, so I'd rather not tweak too much. I prefer to see how people feel about civ choice and civ traits. So people : if you could tell your preference for your civ, and what you think about traits and tweaks. I need everyone's input !! As for me, I'd like to play as the Byzantines or the English or the Dutch, which wouldn't need any tweak. __________________ Sent from my Debian

01-07-2004, 08:17	#23
Banzai Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 1,226	I'll take Portugal - I've never played them before. Although the expansionistic trait is not very usefull in an archipelago game, I still want to give it a shot. At least I will be able to beat the Spanish and the Dutch.. Banzai! __________________ I see your face when I am dreaming. That\'s why I always wakeup screaming.

01-07-2004, 20:46	#24
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	I will play any civ, but if everyone else is seafaring I want to be seafaring too __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

01-07-2004, 21:48	#25
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	The problem with 8 players is that there are only 7 seafaring civilizations and if Vikings are out this leaves 2 players for non-seafaring civs which would be a great disadvantage on this kind of map IMHO. Hence was the idea of having 3 or even 4 or all 6 traits or no traits at all. __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)

01-07-2004, 23:02	#26
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Well, how about if you choose a non-seafaring civ you can swap an existing trait for seafaring? __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

01-07-2004, 23:06	#27
Beam c00l b33r Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beat 'm up Scotty!. Lives in the Lands that are Nether. Posts: 5,094	It is obvious there is an issue with Civ-traits, but as Kemal said removing them takes away a very charming aspect of the game. It is also obvious that Seafaring is by far the strongest trait on a pelago map and we can go either way: - Give all Civs Seafaring as a 3rd trait, which means that some Civs need a different 3rd trait because they already have Seafaring OR eliminate those Civs from the game. - Eliminate Seafaring from the game and either replace Civ with Seafaring with another trait or reduce all Civs to one trait not being seafaring. Easiest is to remove Seafaring Civs as a choice. Otherwise I'd say focus on giving all AI Seafaring as 3rd and discuss what the 3rd trait could be for Civs that already have Seafaring. __________________ That was a pretty good gamble. -- Scotty, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2821.5, Episode 14 Linux never looked this good!

01-07-2004, 23:51	#28
akots Nebuchadnezzar II Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Glover Park Posts: 4,459	Also, expansionist seems to be the most useless trait in this kind of map unless map makers deliberately throws in some huts for expansionist players. Re 3 traits, for example, Spain can be religious and commerical (like in PTW), and seafaring. Carthage can be industrious and commercial and England expansionist (rather useless IMHO) and commercial plus to seafaring. But what about Dutch, Byzantine, and Portugal? Just make them all commercial as a third trait? Which they indeed are at least to a certain extent. I'd like to take seafaring Ottomans or Persia then with Industrious and Scientific traits. I have also another question: Do we all get iron? And/or horses? And equal number of luxuries in the vicinity? And more or less balanced start in terms of food? __________________ Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare Ciceron (Marcus Tullius)

02-07-2004, 00:57	#29
Socrates Emperor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,946	As already said, I wouldn't want a game that is too tweaked. There is a problem for people with a foreign version (but I think I'm the only one in this case). I first have to find out to what extent I can have the game tweaked. I would like someone to mail me a few saves with successive modifications, so as I can know if I can play without any problem. I think we would like to have different starting locations, but all in all the same balance of food, shields and commerce, and this also goes for strategic and luxury resources. Aggie will do an excellent job, I'm sure of it. Well, no need to brainstorm more if we can solve the problem quickly. Maybe someone wants to pick a non-seafearing civ, in which case there is no problem at all. It all depends on people's choice ; after all, someone may have a unique strategy for this game, which doesn't require a strong naval presence... I don't know (hey, heard about OCC, 5CC, agricultural and industrious Mayan enslavers, Sumerian enkidus ?...). I don't want anyone to be fooled by this : you can all pick your civ as you wish. But if we can hear from the rest of the future players, particularly on this issue, it would help the debate. __________________ Sent from my Debian

02-07-2004, 06:57	#30
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	Non-seafaring civs that can build curraghs can be an OK choice I'd say (needing Alphabet). The curraghs will be slower, of course.