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Old 28-01-2005, 21:42   #1
Kingreno
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Default Kingreno vs Erikk #3 *** SPOILAH ***

Settings: Pangaeamap, demigod, standard size, barbs off (probably?)

Erikk: The despicable Celts
Kingreno: Mighty Rome!

Map is made by Killer and I thank him for that!

This is game number three between Erikk and me. I lead at the moment, the score is 2-0! Erikk told me he will beat me this time. He is wrong.

The start...




24.1KB

Well, if Erikk gets even remotely the same start...his agri trait is only partly useful. At first sight production will vastly outweigh growth, and that is a good thing from a roman Perspective. Long term plans are to fend off any Celtic GS-plans. If we manage to do that my traits will outgun him in the later game. Also, landing some legionares (20?) in his Backyard may help.
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Old 28-01-2005, 21:52   #2
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goodie goodie, ancient/middle age sword battle

I expect to see nothing less of all out battle (please please please)
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Old 02-02-2005, 22:31   #3
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YOU ARE NOT going to get that.

The Roman life is hard and difficult. We have yet to discover many techs and in the world we are looked upon as savages. In diplo the romans were mostly puny in their culture and weak in their military. That is true. Bu there is hope, there is always hope.
Some time ago I met Erikk and he is like REALY close. I managed to tlak him into a very long Peace treaty and that relieved me immensly. He could have just attacked me with GS and there's be very very little for me to do against that. Mind you that at that time I had no IW yet, no Barracks, a few warriors perhaps. Erikk was leading me by what 6 techs? Thank god the Inca won the Philorace!
The lands as they look now:




62.32KB

I switched production in Rome to the MoM because there is something interesting on the map, the SoZ is on!


11.77KB

The Indians have started it some turns ago, but Calcutta as our Warrior found out will not Outproduce Roma:



33.28KB

That is some 200ish turns to go Gandhi!
Problem is I have yet to link up Ivory AND acquire Math. I have Lit in 8 turns now and that should trade me math, also Ivory is to be liked in 8 turns. So by building a wonder in the cap there is some risk but no wonders have been built yet so I am confident I can switch long enough for the SoZ to be available.
Normally the SoZ would be not too good'a wonder but since I have no horses nearby or even half nearby these guys will surely come in handy.
As for the stats:




16.78KB

Naturally being first in Pop rocks my head of.

The MM:






4.7KB





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Old 02-02-2005, 22:42   #4
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I guess it was mapmaker's intention to have a sword battle with the placement of your civs though. Good thing Erikk was persuaded Looks like you are equal in land area more or less

I think your wonder choice is indeed a good choice considering the situation you seem to be in. Are horses in neighbouring lands?

So, are your starts equal? If so, how do you think Erikk got a lead on you? Where did you develop differently? I wanna learn more about the initial phase of a pbem
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Old 03-02-2005, 00:03   #5
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Okay Paal, here goes:

Erikk's land. Notice that our first say 9x9 tiles are the same. The rest is a little different, but not that much.


60.66KB

Now, these are my lands with Erikk's cities marked with Green Cirkels, the number indicates the order of founding.
In Blue, my order of founding.




171.44KB

It is immediately clear that city 3, Napoli, is a great city for me, on a lux, on the sea and near fresh water. For Erikk the loaction lacks fresh water, whcih for his agri trait makes this site less attractive. There are more reasons but I'll get to that later. Please also note that every player has totaly different setlingplans (or none) and these are not good or bad per se.
My decision on founding city 2, Milano, was for the reasons:
-On the sea, I am commercial and thus can build a curragh from start! I need to explore.
-On the river: extra commerce, no need for aquaduct, more trade on tiles next to the river.
-Near a Bonusresourcem wheated Floodplain, +5 food and that means a 2 turn worker factory (or a very hard 4 turn-setler factory, since there is not enough production probably.)

We see that Erikk founded his second city one tile closer to the Capitol. This is by no means a bad move. Remember that he may not have scouted the lands there and the location at itslef is ok. However, mine is better (And I by no means want to sound arrogant! Kemal or Anarres would easily burn this placement strat!) because it has more tiles to work on, including a fishbonus and 2 grasslands. Normaly Dense city is ok, but since there is nothing behind Milano, the location I chose is great.

After selecting a second growth factory it is time for happiness. I will build a granary in both roma and Milano so I need luxes there. There are two nearby. I decide to found Napoli, as said before it has fresh water/sea/lux. It does not get any better then that. In some games I'd also go grany there but since I met agressive neighbours (babylon and Persia) as well this is pangaea I will build barax after a few warriors.

Erikk has build Lugdunum as city II. He chose the Wheated Floodplains over a lux at that time probably since with his agritrait he'd crank out nr's 4 and 5 soon too. It is an ok choice but I am happy I waited a while before founding there.

I founded Genoa because it is ON silks. so a second lux. It also has a cow and some nice hills and Mountains for production in the later game. Erikk also founded on the spot there. Not much to say about it realy.

Here we come at a different choice. I had scouted the Ivory up east and sent my 4th setler there. A setler from Milano founded Torino North of Rome. Nothing special abput it. On a river is nice again, and it will grow as well as I intend to use the Game for it. I beat persia and Babylon to the Ivory, while the Indians beat Erikk! The main reason for this is that even when Ravenna and Bologna are more productive cities I will get these anyway! There is zero chance the AI will settle there before the next setler is done in my core, while the Ivory spot with 3 ivory-tiles is very hot.
To rap the founding up, six, seven and eight were founded in two turns to make the core complete. The eight city has wines btw.

As a result my Lands are slightly bigger then Erikks. My cities just a bit further apart. Nothing that major but let it be 10%? Or 8%? I'd also like others to have their thought on this. Would you have founded differently? iF so, why? Remember I sent out my scouting warrior East, by chance.

As for how I know erikks founding order, check the list for the Celts in the civlopedia. now you know hwy I rename my cities!




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Old 03-02-2005, 00:51   #6
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Very, very, very nice, Kingreno ! Superb explanation, this is the first time I read such a post in a PBEM spoiler. Maybe I had read such stuff back in my heavy SP games in 2003, but that was long ago. Quite a refreshment, to the least.

I enjoy the way you described the general harmony that must come up with your settling order (capital, then worker/settler factory, then cities on luxes, then beating the AIs to ivory, then filling back the core). Quickly going to ivory and then filling back the core is a must in the majority of games. The trick is to find the right moment to get there, because sending a settler to ivory immediately (like city #2 or #3) is counter-productive : you need some solid basement in your core first.

Funnily I often go first on high-food spots, before considering luxes. I always do it simple : grab the food bonuses first, unless they're quite far away (corruption), then grab bonus grasslands and rivers... then grab the luxes on poor spots. Maybe I need more harmony, but maybe each city can be more productive too.

Keep up the good work !
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:03   #7
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oh man, the SoZ on sucks big time!

sorry!!!
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:30   #8
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I also noticed you are mining the game between Torino and Roma (not sure it is a good decision). I would have probably moved Torino 1 tile SW and irrigate the game. Also, if Ravenna will be moved 1 tile SW, it can share two cows with Genoa and/or Rome and by building Granary in one of those cities(apparently Genoa), it might be possible to greatly boost the growth. Bologna could have been moved 1 tile NW to get the fishes in radius and to free a place for a fishermen village on one of the costal hills. Also, I don't see the reason for stopping settler production but it might be you have a better perspective here. However, with clearing marshes and irrigating two game tiles there, a city somewhere in between Torino, Venezia and Ravenna will be a nice worker factory.

In general, strating location seems extremely nice with lots and lots of food and shields which basically substantially diminishes the advantage of argi trait of erikk.
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:33   #9
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by akots

I also noticed you are mining the game between Torino and Roma (not sure it is a good decision). I would have probably moved Torino 1 tile SW and irrigate the game. Also, if Ravenna will be moved 1 tile SW, it can share two cows with Genoa and/or Rome and by building Granary in one of those cities(apparently Genoa), it might be possible to greatly boost the growth. Bologna could have been moved 1 tile NW to get the fishes in radius and to free a place for a fishermen village on one of the costal hills. Also, I don't see the reason for stopping settler production but it might be you have a better perspective here. However, with clearing marshes and irrigating two game tiles there, a city somewhere in between Torino, Venezia and Ravenna will be a nice worker factory.

In general, strating location seems extremely nice with lots and lots of food and shields which basically substantially diminishes the advantage of argi trait of erikk.
Mining the Game was a 50-50 choice. It is not near water so I'd have to irrigate the BG near Roma first. Since that needs mining soon for the SoZ that was not realy an option. I am usually very much for irrigating them but considdering as well that Torino has some plains who will give 3 food with RR there is enough growth.
As for the Torino Location, I think very much it is best where it is now because of the wider spread of cities I want and need. Also, upon Library construction it will get two BG on a river within the city radius. To finalise decisionmaking for it's location I planned an overlap with city number 10 but the babs beat me to it.
This a rather large Standard map and DCP is not a good option, that is why I only wanted 3 cities South(east) of Roma-Milano. For the Hills/Mountains/Fish/Wheat to be of optimal use in the Next age I need Bologna and Genoa to be powerhouses! Size 10+ with little corruption and high shields (20+).
I agree Akots that in general a "fishing village" Is ok to have. High commerce and little need for improvements (harbor/market/lib only since production is very low no need for rax/factories). However, on this map there will be plenty of room to settle (once wars start).
In general all your advise is very logical Akots but one thing I do not agree on and that is Ravenna sharing the Cow. Ravenna as placed here will have access to two Game , a fish in a lake, 4 hills, 3-5 Coastal tiles and 3 grass. I see firstly no need to move it closer to the Genoa-Cow, as sharing that will never happen because Genoa needs it very much for itself. Second, sharing the Roma-cow is a little more realistic but not outweighing the beneficial advantage the Cow has for Roma. Not to mention Moving Ravenna SW will make the area more dense again.
I guess it all has a lot to do with the bigger picture, which I did not mention in this thread at all. This is a wide map as said so that is the most important factor in placing the cities. It is something one does not always "know" when starting but as soon as I found out here I'd get at least 10 cities (wide) or 14 (close-placement) I chose 10 cities in a wider patern. It also has to do with being Commercial. I love the trait and it shows real power with large cities. All cities founded can grow past size 12!

Last remark, I was indeed not unhappy when I saw the Food-plethora here. The agri-one-extra-food is hardly that important. Being first in pop shows just that.
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Old 28-03-2005, 19:10   #10
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wow an update.[]

We are now at turn 126.




7.03KB

In short, me and erikk have this agreement made eons ago about peace till the IA. He is celts me rome, we both lack horses. Erikk, however, has used his awesome GS for this:




62.77KB

And yes, it does continue further up north. He annihilated the Indians, very very weak civ, and then allied the world vs teh Arabs and grabbed their land too. The Indians are dead, while Arabia is scattered on several islands and alive for now.
In the meantime the splendid Roman empire...


63.85KB

No, this is it. ahem.

How did this happen? well...

I was way back on everything when I struck home Theology. This got me chiv and Invention and parity with the world. It alos got me mega GPT deals with Babylon and the Inca, while I got Horses from persia. This all made me go 100% Science with a Token army, only too happy with The SoZ I managed to get:


21.77KB

Needless to say I am weak vs all. Good thing is though that at 100% science I outran the world and Education was mine too! This in turn was traded for GP and given away to prevent Erikk catching up. Next was Astro, we made that too, and traded for Chemistry. Erikk is clearly stearing Towards Cav.


50.03KB

I do not mind. I triggered my GA against Egypt (other side of the world demanded something clearly not an option). Physics is in 4 turns and Universities are in all major cities! The AI is paying for the rest:


18.82KB

This turn, science can go down to 40%, will get me towards 1k gold again and there is plenty of cash around to pay for Physics. Erikk may be going for Metallurgy and I hope the Inca get it first so I can trade it arround. I may even prevent him from getting Education!

The diplomatic screen:


58.86KB

Nice to see Arabs are still alive, their culture is great so perhaps flipping is a danger for Erikk. This would mean he needs recapturetroops ready in the far North.
And this is where my Evil plan emerges: I plan to go Industrial way before Erikk expects. I will then land 10-15 Knights (or cav) in his core and strike his now empty cities that are near my border! I don't have any other options since Babylon and Persia are paying me gold and horses...let's just hope he does not pull back in time and is building Universities in his core.
I still have 14 turns of GA to go, we need Magnetism, Banking, ToG and Metalurgy for the IA, and miltrad as well.
the f11:


55.16KB

This tiny Empire has rather large balls so it seems.
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