***Spolier*** Tour de France avec Beam - Page 4

ProPain · 03-01-2005, 10:56

Good read! Keep up the good spoiler work!

Grille · 03-01-2005, 21:12

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
Concerning the rules, I suggested sticking to Aggie's PBEM rules-set in the opponent finding thread; this means that MAs are generally allowed (and I used MAs already in this game), though slightly restricted (no refreshing a MA deal with the same civ in case the MA broke before the natural 20 turns expiration). I originally thought this rule should mainly avoid MA-ping-pong for human-AI MAs vs the other human every five turns or so with the same AI civs involved (not specifically apply to MA deals vs another AI that get renewed). I reread the rules and noticed that Aggie did not explicitely count out the latter scenario. To be honest, I really thought about renewing the MA with Germany vs Babs as they broke the deal after 8 turns. I didn't do it, though, but wouldn't mind Beam doing such similar (except for the mentioned human MA ping-pong).
FWIW, I noticed that Aggie added a passage about TGL-abuse after Beam and I started the game; however, I think this passage was mainly set up for SGs anyways and maybe for some rare 'pick AI's TGL only, keep it one turn and then abandon it' in a PBEM. Apart from that, for Beam, it should be pretty obvious that I avoid education for abusing the TGL sooner or later (plus he knows I live next door to TGL), so I guess he would have sent a note already. And no way would I disband Babylon just one turn after marching in (yummy Pyramids, Leo's etc).

Whatever, I think we both (maybe silently) agree on most points anyways.

About the MA: Babylon will be doomed of course with Germany and/or Korea attacking from the other side. The advantages would be plentiful. Not only that the Babs may throw their masses against Germany/Korea like they apparently did in the other war and even weaken G/K as well in the process, this would also cut off possible trades (especially saltpetre!), if not avoiding MAs against me.
OTOH, Akkad has Sistine's which could be one of the first targets of G/K. Oh well, at some point, they should get punched, too.
Here's a map of Babylon (173):

125.16KB
(interesting side-note: the former Babylonian city of Samarra was captured by Korea in the first war; on Beam's continent, the Hitties own the former Greek city of Pharsalos in almost the same spot, as my galley over there just detected - along with the officially first seen Chinese Rider near Athens!)

AFAIK the Babs have only one source of saltpetre which they should lose quckly after the war started. But the peace treaty must expire first (182 IIRC). Good thing the Babs (and Germans) switched to demo already.

Plus, Babylonian cities of Eulbar and Nineveh are investing shields into Magellan's and Newton's.
Not yet 100% sure if I should start my GA then, but it would of course help for a ToE shot. I don't know if Beam is (or will be) at the gate of the industrial age (then), but I expect he's preparing his GA for ToE. Since he likely now/soon has unversities in his core, he has a good chance to win this race.
Ähem. As I type, I open 175.

Beam visited a boutique.
That is, he is wearing new clothes!

Kingreno · 03-01-2005, 21:18

Well, the trades would stand if Korea/Germany have Navigation and you own a harbor (which you do). So no rep hits in allying them against the Babs then, though I agree waiting till the peace treaty expires.
Oh, and I would not worry about G/K adavncing so quickly they will snatch sistine. AI tends to send 1 to 3 knights atb a time to cities and with muskets Hamurabi can easily defeat that. It will keep him occupied, and that shoudl give French knights more chances. But hey, you know that. get on with it!

Grille · 03-01-2005, 21:39

Yeah, gotta hurry once the peace deal expired. Rather outdated fashion style I have. Must steal Hammurabi's glasses.

Grille · 05-01-2005, 00:44

One turn to go. Main forces in attack positon, the galley has a settler on board, so I have at least an option to grab stardust hill a bit sooner (will depend on how well things go, cause I have to defend it with uneeded knights).
It'll be tough though, the Babs do know nationalism!!

149.6KB

Some stuff has been left south (including the horsemen army) to face possible naval assaults by Babylon. Also, who knows if Beam decides to ship over spoilsports. He just offered a tech deal, though (edu & met at 15% dicount compared to best AI price). The deal was denied, since he would only trade it in a package. Offered 55gpt for met alone. I guess he would have accepted 55gpt for *both* met and edu...

Anyways, I'm now now strong again compared to Beam (and Germany!), avarage to Hitties and weak against the rest; diplo advisor says military is equal in size compared to Babylon, which is of course fine.
Beam trades with Babs. Maybe he gets their wines, hehe.

Grille · 05-01-2005, 01:55

Nineveh know fits onto a page in a history book!
Took a lot of shots, must still crop them, details later.

in short:
signed:
MA vs Babs plus Met with Germany for ~75gpt
MA vs Babs plus MT with Korea for ~100gpt
(prices just IIRC, have to recheck)

Blow on Nineveh (razed):
Lost 7 knights, 2 retreated. Garrison consisted of 2 rifles and 2 (nasty) cavs. 3 other slaves captured. 2 elites gained.
14 knights (and lotsa horsies) left, settler unloaded and position secured with 4 knights (no counter attack on stardust hill stack during IBT).

Renewed horse deal with Korea (20gpt).
Sold MT to Hitties for WM and monarchy.

IBT182:
Babs & Hitties make MA vs Germany.
Babs & Hitties make embargo vs France. I could care less.

counterattacks:
Lost a horse that captured a slave, killed a longbow with a knight, pike defended against Bab cav (retreat).

Made Beam an offer:
MT for WM plus gold as in tech calc price (7 of 8 know it) minus 15%.

Grille · 07-01-2005, 20:55

shot addendum (all turn 182)

The MA/tech deals with Germany and Korea:

82.32KB

As seen, I decided to combine the tech deals. Not to possibly get the techs cheaper in case of deal breaking in the first place, but to ensure the MAs will stay (not too sure if this is almost guaranteed, but it often works well enough). The city of Babylon alone has more culture than whole France in total. So flip risk is quite high and the Babs should be wiped out quickly which is not feasible solely.

79.24KB

In the middle of attacking Nineveh; as the rifles had died/lost enough HP, unfortunately cav(s) showed up as defenders, thus disabling retreat chances.

142.28KB
After razing Nineveh, as roughly implied by the arrows, I captured the workers, moved/unloaded the settler off the galley onto stardust hill and strenghtened the positon with knights.

The harvest, just before razing (8 slaves gained in total that turn):

58.46KB

Actual mini map and the forces left over after attacking, ready for cav-upgrades:

66.95KB

The crisis swapping over to the other continent during IBT:

137.54KB

The Babs reaction on IBT. Apart from some other unimportant battles, only 2 cavs attacked (1 succesfully) and the Babs moved a stack of rifles and templars southwards.

123.4KB

Grille · 07-01-2005, 22:50

So how did this go on? Alas, no French flag in Babylon until now (189).
Although the upshowing Babs were not much of a threat, I lost some of my (IMO too rare-numbered) cavs in order to prevent the Babs pillaging horse and spices.
Plus, I diversified forces because the Babs' navy indeed left port and eventually started naval invasions, circumventing the border strongholds.

134.75KB

So I could not deploy enough cavs for a concentated attack on Babylon. I've only seen 2 Templars, so I fear Babylon may be still full of them, thus I'll wait until at least 20 cavs are available (=more money for upgrades needed).
Meanwhile I got muskets (no GA yet!) and moved a defensive stack with a settler to the wine hills (186). It's obvious that the the Babs trade all their wines... possibly even with Beam.

142.49KB

Before and after plopping New Paris on the wine hills, I checked diplo/F4-trade lines. New Paris forced the Babs to break a deal with Hittites and they lost their 'own' source (Babs accept diplo envoy and there's wines on my side of the table). Alas, the Chinese-Babylonian trading was still in order.

Northern France in 188:

144.72KB

In 189 I noticed someone beat me in GNP and MFG - F4 says Beam is at war with... Germany

, so he prolly launched his GA. No idea why he picked Germany (if it wasn't a tribute thing, but then I should still be #1 in GNP I think). On the bright side, I'm still strong and if Beam really fights Germany, he shouldn't be able to send over stuff to me.
Although an accumulation of stinkin Chinese pirates was just (turn 189) detected near the French coast (1 frigate, 3 privateers)!

111.41KB

Got a 300g loan for a frigging 19gpt from Greece for more cav upgrades. Wine was traded for 10gpt and 8gpt to Korea and Germany.

Grille · 08-01-2005, 01:36

Beam indeed milfed my galley!!

With new cavs deployed up in the north, I waged an attack on Babylon. With streaky results, took me 9 cav rolls to even kill the first rifle.

Not that I want to complain about the RNG (Babylon is on a hill), but that was quite daunting at first sight. Then the luck switched side and I got my second leader!

Was about time (HE in Paris since 390AD or so). I secretly hoped to get one by picking on longbows and other weaker stuff the Babs dropped off of boats in the south w/o success. But this GL is even right at the front line.

125.41 KB

In total, I could kill 4 rifles and lost 5 cavs. A ton of cavs (and 1 knight) retreated, rushed the rax in New Paris for healing purposes.
Formed a cav army of course and that should hopefully grind the Babs at last.
Just played 192, my army pillaged the last remaining Babylonian-connected wine resources. Trade line with Beam on F4 still active, but I see on diplo that I could now offer wines to Beam.

Hope his rep is history now.

This may be very important, because as I said earlier, diplo victory may be very well possible (not for me in the first place, since I already have (and will) raze). His pirating career and a trashed rep may possibly level the AI's attitude towards him.

Grille · 09-01-2005, 03:27

198:
Yeah!!!

167.04KB

03-01-2005, 10:56	#31
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	Good read! Keep up the good spoiler work! __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

03-01-2005, 21:18	#33
Kingreno Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,270	Well, the trades would stand if Korea/Germany have Navigation and you own a harbor (which you do). So no rep hits in allying them against the Babs then, though I agree waiting till the peace treaty expires. Oh, and I would not worry about G/K adavncing so quickly they will snatch sistine. AI tends to send 1 to 3 knights atb a time to cities and with muskets Hamurabi can easily defeat that. It will keep him occupied, and that shoudl give French knights more chances. But hey, you know that. get on with it! __________________ Go ahead punk. Make my day.

07-01-2005, 22:50	#38
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	So how did this go on? Alas, no French flag in Babylon until now (189). Although the upshowing Babs were not much of a threat, I lost some of my (IMO too rare-numbered) cavs in order to prevent the Babs pillaging horse and spices. Plus, I diversified forces because the Babs' navy indeed left port and eventually started naval invasions, circumventing the border strongholds. 134.75KB So I could not deploy enough cavs for a concentated attack on Babylon. I've only seen 2 Templars, so I fear Babylon may be still full of them, thus I'll wait until at least 20 cavs are available (=more money for upgrades needed). Meanwhile I got muskets (no GA yet!) and moved a defensive stack with a settler to the wine hills (186). It's obvious that the the Babs trade all their wines... possibly even with Beam. 142.49KB Before and after plopping New Paris on the wine hills, I checked diplo/F4-trade lines. New Paris forced the Babs to break a deal with Hittites and they lost their 'own' source (Babs accept diplo envoy and there's wines on my side of the table). Alas, the Chinese-Babylonian trading was still in order. Northern France in 188: 144.72KB In 189 I noticed someone beat me in GNP and MFG - F4 says Beam is at war with... Germany, so he prolly launched his GA. No idea why he picked Germany (if it wasn't a tribute thing, but then I should still be #1 in GNP I think). On the bright side, I'm still strong and if Beam really fights Germany, he shouldn't be able to send over stuff to me. Although an accumulation of stinkin Chinese pirates was just (turn 189) detected near the French coast (1 frigate, 3 privateers)! 111.41KB Got a 300g loan for a frigging 19gpt from Greece for more cav upgrades. Wine was traded for 10gpt and 8gpt to Korea and Germany.

03-01-2005, 21:12	#32
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	Thanks for the feedback, guys. Concerning the rules, I suggested sticking to Aggie's PBEM rules-set in the opponent finding thread; this means that MAs are generally allowed (and I used MAs already in this game), though slightly restricted (no refreshing a MA deal with the same civ in case the MA broke before the natural 20 turns expiration). I originally thought this rule should mainly avoid MA-ping-pong for human-AI MAs vs the other human every five turns or so with the same AI civs involved (not specifically apply to MA deals vs another AI that get renewed). I reread the rules and noticed that Aggie did not explicitely count out the latter scenario. To be honest, I really thought about renewing the MA with Germany vs Babs as they broke the deal after 8 turns. I didn't do it, though, but wouldn't mind Beam doing such similar (except for the mentioned human MA ping-pong). FWIW, I noticed that Aggie added a passage about TGL-abuse after Beam and I started the game; however, I think this passage was mainly set up for SGs anyways and maybe for some rare 'pick AI's TGL only, keep it one turn and then abandon it' in a PBEM. Apart from that, for Beam, it should be pretty obvious that I avoid education for abusing the TGL sooner or later (plus he knows I live next door to TGL), so I guess he would have sent a note already. And no way would I disband Babylon just one turn after marching in (yummy Pyramids, Leo's etc). Whatever, I think we both (maybe silently) agree on most points anyways. About the MA: Babylon will be doomed of course with Germany and/or Korea attacking from the other side. The advantages would be plentiful. Not only that the Babs may throw their masses against Germany/Korea like they apparently did in the other war and even weaken G/K as well in the process, this would also cut off possible trades (especially saltpetre!), if not avoiding MAs against me. OTOH, Akkad has Sistine's which could be one of the first targets of G/K. Oh well, at some point, they should get punched, too. Here's a map of Babylon (173): 125.16KB (interesting side-note: the former Babylonian city of Samarra was captured by Korea in the first war; on Beam's continent, the Hitties own the former Greek city of Pharsalos in almost the same spot, as my galley over there just detected - along with the officially first seen Chinese Rider near Athens!) AFAIK the Babs have only one source of saltpetre which they should lose quckly after the war started. But the peace treaty must expire first (182 IIRC). Good thing the Babs (and Germans) switched to demo already. Plus, Babylonian cities of Eulbar and Nineveh are investing shields into Magellan's and Newton's. Not yet 100% sure if I should start my GA then, but it would of course help for a ToE shot. I don't know if Beam is (or will be) at the gate of the industrial age (then), but I expect he's preparing his GA for ToE. Since he likely now/soon has unversities in his core, he has a good chance to win this race. Ähem. As I type, I open 175. Beam visited a boutique. That is, he is wearing new clothes!

03-01-2005, 21:39	#34
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	Yeah, gotta hurry once the peace deal expired. Rather outdated fashion style I have. Must steal Hammurabi's glasses.

05-01-2005, 00:44	#35
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	One turn to go. Main forces in attack positon, the galley has a settler on board, so I have at least an option to grab stardust hill a bit sooner (will depend on how well things go, cause I have to defend it with uneeded knights). It'll be tough though, the Babs do know nationalism!! 149.6KB Some stuff has been left south (including the horsemen army) to face possible naval assaults by Babylon. Also, who knows if Beam decides to ship over spoilsports. He just offered a tech deal, though (edu & met at 15% dicount compared to best AI price). The deal was denied, since he would only trade it in a package. Offered 55gpt for met alone. I guess he would have accepted 55gpt for both met and edu... Anyways, I'm now now strong again compared to Beam (and Germany!), avarage to Hitties and weak against the rest; diplo advisor says military is equal in size compared to Babylon, which is of course fine. Beam trades with Babs. Maybe he gets their wines, hehe.

05-01-2005, 01:55	#36
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	Nineveh know fits onto a page in a history book! Took a lot of shots, must still crop them, details later. in short: signed: MA vs Babs plus Met with Germany for ~75gpt MA vs Babs plus MT with Korea for ~100gpt (prices just IIRC, have to recheck) Blow on Nineveh (razed): Lost 7 knights, 2 retreated. Garrison consisted of 2 rifles and 2 (nasty) cavs. 3 other slaves captured. 2 elites gained. 14 knights (and lotsa horsies) left, settler unloaded and position secured with 4 knights (no counter attack on stardust hill stack during IBT). Renewed horse deal with Korea (20gpt). Sold MT to Hitties for WM and monarchy. IBT182: Babs & Hitties make MA vs Germany. Babs & Hitties make embargo vs France. I could care less. counterattacks: Lost a horse that captured a slave, killed a longbow with a knight, pike defended against Bab cav (retreat). Made Beam an offer: MT for WM plus gold as in tech calc price (7 of 8 know it) minus 15%.

07-01-2005, 20:55	#37
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	shot addendum (all turn 182) The MA/tech deals with Germany and Korea: 82.32KB As seen, I decided to combine the tech deals. Not to possibly get the techs cheaper in case of deal breaking in the first place, but to ensure the MAs will stay (not too sure if this is almost guaranteed, but it often works well enough). The city of Babylon alone has more culture than whole France in total. So flip risk is quite high and the Babs should be wiped out quickly which is not feasible solely. 79.24KB In the middle of attacking Nineveh; as the rifles had died/lost enough HP, unfortunately cav(s) showed up as defenders, thus disabling retreat chances. 142.28KB After razing Nineveh, as roughly implied by the arrows, I captured the workers, moved/unloaded the settler off the galley onto stardust hill and strenghtened the positon with knights. The harvest, just before razing (8 slaves gained in total that turn): 58.46KB Actual mini map and the forces left over after attacking, ready for cav-upgrades: 66.95KB The crisis swapping over to the other continent during IBT: 137.54KB The Babs reaction on IBT. Apart from some other unimportant battles, only 2 cavs attacked (1 succesfully) and the Babs moved a stack of rifles and templars southwards. 123.4KB

08-01-2005, 01:36	#39
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	Beam indeed milfed my galley!! With new cavs deployed up in the north, I waged an attack on Babylon. With streaky results, took me 9 cav rolls to even kill the first rifle. Not that I want to complain about the RNG (Babylon is on a hill), but that was quite daunting at first sight. Then the luck switched side and I got my second leader! Was about time (HE in Paris since 390AD or so). I secretly hoped to get one by picking on longbows and other weaker stuff the Babs dropped off of boats in the south w/o success. But this GL is even right at the front line. 125.41 KB In total, I could kill 4 rifles and lost 5 cavs. A ton of cavs (and 1 knight) retreated, rushed the rax in New Paris for healing purposes. Formed a cav army of course and that should hopefully grind the Babs at last. Just played 192, my army pillaged the last remaining Babylonian-connected wine resources. Trade line with Beam on F4 still active, but I see on diplo that I could now offer wines to Beam. Hope his rep is history now. This may be very important, because as I said earlier, diplo victory may be very well possible (not for me in the first place, since I already have (and will) raze). His pirating career and a trashed rep may possibly level the AI's attitude towards him.

09-01-2005, 03:27	#40
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	198: Yeah!!! 167.04KB