Meli Manglers Need Help - Page 2

ProPain · 11-01-2005, 00:28

I agree, but that can be solved by buying a 3rd trainee that only requires the number of injured weeks to promote to the next level. This requires some spare cash but is easily done as a keepers TSI gives a quite acurate measure of his remaining training time. The keeper tool on hottrick.org is very usefull for that.

Off course you'll still lose some money doing this but that applies to all trainees that get injured.

Dell19 · 11-01-2005, 00:46

Thats an interesting point. Had thought about goalkeepers being much easier to predict when they are about to pop to the next level but not made the connection that it would be extremely useful if an existing keeper was injured.

ProPain · 11-01-2005, 02:13

Also when you have a lot of time on your hands you can use the predictability of keeper levels to train more than 2 keepers a week.

On the day before the actual training is accumulated look for:
- keepers who are less than 1 week from gaining a level (depending on your coaches skill and number of assistent goaltending coaches)
- who have played in an actual match on the keeper position last week.

These keepers will gain training points because they've played on the keeper position last week, albeit at their old club.

After training they have gained a level and you can sell again with a profit,

This trick does require quite some free time though because you need to buy sufficiently cheap to compensate for the higher selling penalty (players has been at your club extremely short) and his salary. Also there are other people doing this so you can expect some competition.

Kemal does this sometimes, maybe he can tell what kind of money this brings you a week.

yndy · 11-01-2005, 05:17

Meli, I did not answer so far because I did not know where to start. I have noticed your very good forms for the players signaling you had trained General extensively.

I’ll start by answering your question.
Training intensity is to be set at 100%. Now that option shouldn’t even be there, 99% of players train at 100% and using other values usually leads to sub-optimal results. The 10 training types are split in several categories (I’m using here the terms we use in Romania, I’m not sure everybody uses similar terms):
- specific training: that’s the 5 main skills of the players: defending, scoring, cross pass (winger), playmaking, goaltending. Training one of these skills improves the players playing in that area of the field during league, friendly and cup matches.
- Secondaries training: that includes set pieces training, shooting and passing. Training these improve set pieces and passing for all or many of your players which are playing and for set pieces even non-playing. Still, if the players are not very good in their primary skills, you won’t make money out of this training. It generally requires very large amounts of starting cash.
- Non-specific training: that includes stamina, which increases stamina very fast for all players but decreases form. The thing is that only midfielders need stamina so normally you won’t need to do this very often. The second is general which improves form and does nothing else, thus it increases short term performances but does nothing for long term. Some players in the top division need to do that for short periods of time to avoid demotion but it does not do good for them in the long term.

I am trying to think of a way you could switch your training style and not hurt your team very much and frankly I am not getting anywhere. On top of that I have reached a point where I have no idea what you can do with passable and solid players as I’m not buying that kind of players anymore.

Every time I start to put a schedule for things that you need to do, it becomes obvious that you have to tear your team apart and rebuild it from scratch and I’m not sure you want to do that.

If you are ready to tear your team apart it might be a good time to sell those passable and solid players in excellent form. Their form will give them a nice sell bonus and if you start doing other things, their form will drop in a matter of weeks.

A very important thing, you need to give some stamina to your midfielders. I’d say Erdem de Klaver needs up to 5 weeks to reach a decent level for a midfielder. Since you should do that you could go the road Kemal went when training stamina with 30-40 players one season ago. That’s in the power starts guide I wrote at that time: http://www.ht-arena.com/chimica/?page=kemal . Still it needs a lot of RL time invested in looking at the Hattrick transfer market, looking for the cheapest players in the zillion of players offered for sale. Also going on that path means that you will most probably not manage to do a good show in Division V.

One of the disadvantages of stamina training is that you don’t have form anymore hence my suggestion to sell the players in good form in the first place.

I’ll stop here and ask you what do you think of this so far.

English_brit · 11-01-2005, 08:16

Quote:

quote:I'm training keepers now and I'm thinking the profit per week is better than for playmakers. Before I trained wingers: wouldnt do that market for them is slow. Looked into forwards too a bit, seems a better market than playmakers too.

Both a magnificent keeper and a magnificent playmaker with just inadequate passing etc would both draw in around £2 million. The same can be said for magnificent strikers that go for around £2 million aswell. All the above aged 21 btw.

As a playmaker can train 6 players fully every week and 4 players at half speed and a keeper trainer can only train 2 players I'd say you're only making in the long run around 1\3 the money a playmaker trainer will make.

Yep, Keeper training is faster but is it 3 times faster to counteract having over 3 times less trainees? No. Plus also take in to account when keeper training your outfield players will have worse form than most other teams due to only 1 or 2 outfield assistant coaches. Plus with the new changes being made in defence for next season the overall importance of a keeper will be lessened.

Scoring I accept as a viable alternative to playmaking but in my honest opinion I think he'd be crazy to train keeping when through the sale of his overly large squad he could afford to buy in enough trainees to train playmaking or scoring.

Keeper training imo is only good for teams starting out who need to make a quick buck and can't afford a full compliment of trainees to train another area.

The only other advantage of keeper training is that it leaves your tactics flexible. As you can play any formation you fancy.

Quote:

quote:I am trying to think of a way you could switch your training style and not hurt your team very much and frankly I am not getting anywhere.

That's why I suggested playmakin and keeping the 3 players he's already got to train for a bit. Those should ensure his team won't take an undue hit in his league matches while training the other new recruits.

The big problem here is he's getting promoted when he needs to implement a new training regime. If he ends up in a tough division it could cause problems.

I'm a Level 5 team atm and I have to say looking at his ratings unless he's very lucky he's going to take a bit of a beating next season irrrespectively of wether he implements a new training regime.

As a result of that I'd say sod it and buy in every new trainee for whatever position he decides to train. Imo training scoring would probably enable him to take the least of a hit to his results in the next level up. However scoring training does make your tactics predictable and without the addition of a classy winger plus a strong enough midfield to draw posession can make you easier to counter.

Lot of options open to you. Guess the balls in Meli's court now.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Kemal · 11-01-2005, 09:22

Regarding keeper training -> more than 2 keepers per week: That is horrible and time-consuming to do, but the profits can be quite high, and it does always give an escape route for making extra cash in case you suddenly have to spend bigtime unexpectedly (it is how I am financing my 230K stadium expansion, an investment which was nowhere to be found in my original plans for the season).

As pp says, you have to know the market quite well, especially early on you'll find yourself checking on keeper after keeper, with only like 5% being about to pop a level, and then, again as pp indicated, you still have to face stiff competition from some fulltime keepertrainers, who make like 10-15 transfers a day, always looking for keepers.
Once you learn some of these guys, you can take an easier approach, as you can scan the market for keepers with their club as the last bidder, trusting them with doing the checking, but in that case you'll never find the hidden gems, and you'll always end up with a very marginal profit, if any profit at all, since these guys are ruthless traders, who have money to burn and care little about whether they make 100, 10, or even 1 K profit per purchase.

In the meantime, be prepared to see your TS melting away as snow in the sun of course... making this tactic a great way to get poor results in competitive leagues, unless you make so much profit you can purchase yourself big-star players, like those "real keepertrainers" seem to do.

Melifluous · 11-01-2005, 13:21

OK Thanks for all your advice guys.

It was as I suddenly realised that teams in level 5 are quite hard and my best players were in the 28+ range that I realised that my team was flawed. I was fully accepting that I would drop straight back down to the 6th division again.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by English_brit

The big problem here is he's getting promoted when he needs to implement a new training regime. If he ends up in a tough division it could cause problems.

There is a way around this, but I am not sure on the legality of it. I could lose my last match by not playing a team. This would still mean I would win my division but would almost certainly ensure that I dont get auto promoted. Then in the qualifier I could throw that match as well. This would leave me in the division I am in now with a chance to work on my team.

or...

I could go with the playmaking training.
I noticed English Brit picked out Urban, Rick and Erdem for training. Was there any reason you overlooked Bart Young? He's 19 and a solid playmaker. This would leave me having to buy 2 more trainees and a decent coach. I checked and my current coach is inadequate.

Open once more to suggestions...

Who should I sell?

Melifluous

PS. Please dont worry about upsetting me with suggestions, I asked for help, I need help, and drastic is the advice I am looking for

English_brit · 11-01-2005, 13:57

It would be in your own interests not to gain promotion. I don't know wether it's ok to not field a team or not, but if you could throw that last game by fielding a bad team you'd be ok.

Quote:

quote:Bart Young
TSI = 1 100 , 19 years, solid form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities [Technical]

Stamina: wretched Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: solid Passing: poor
Winger: inadequate Defending: wretched
Scoring: solid Set Pieces: inadequate

Two reasons I didn't include Young as a trainee.

1. He's got wretched stamina. As stamina's really important for your midfielders he'd be a liability. Even if you did train 2 weeks of stamina at the end of this season he'd still only be weak.

Assuming you'd buy in only trainees with inadequate or better stamina you'd end up in a couple of seasons with all you other trainees with excellent stamina and him still needing the extra training. As most of the rest of your team would have decent stamina would seem a waste to spend 2 extra weeks training stamina for just one player when you could be training something else.

2. He's got solid scoring. I can't remember exactly how many decent strikers you have but I don't think you have any above solid. So you could either choose to play him as a striker or sell him to get some money for trainees with better stamina.

You could keep and train him if you want. But bear in mind that for the next couple of seasons assuming you do train stamina in both off seasons he's going to be underperforming in the 2nd half of games.

Personally I'd throw your next game then throw the qualifer and get the extra crowd money from the game.

As you're winning well in your division you should be able to implement the new regime and still win games. Therefore you'll get loads of fans while improving your long term prospects. Winner all round.

Kemal · 11-01-2005, 14:00

I'm not English brit, so i can't speak for him of course, but I'd say the only reason you want to keep those guys as trainees is because they will already perform well from the start, allowing you to get some decent results, and for that you'll only need 3.
I guess you really want your trainees to be below 20 since it helps out greatly in training speed, especially with longer term training programs such as playmaking. Since the season is almost over, these three as well as Bart Young are already getting a bit old (no pun intended) to function as trainees, but that is compensated by the fact that they are already excellent.
Therefore, I'd try and pick up a few young (preferably 17 year-olds = 18 next season), solid playmakers with poor stamina, since you'll train that anyway, that shouldn't cost too much I think, leaving you some room to improve your trainer perhaps as well.

As for firing players, well I'm not sure on the exact strengths of the English leagues, but i'd certainly do away with:

Gavin Cheesman
Aatmaj Venkataraman, unless he's a clown, which can't be seen from here,
Mark Verspoor
Kennedy Mason
Quentin Berg
Steven Elway
Wilmar Gubbels (though you might take a gamble on transferlisting him since he has quite some experience)

As well as transferlist:

Sandy Cabezas
Oskar Rouvé (after a little stamina training, perhaps)
Adam Davis
Bart Young (after stamina training)
Eric Hautala
Fred Watson
Gregory Hobson
Ian Turner
Jamie McGowan
Richard Alistair
Richard Duckworth (perhaps after stamina training)
Roddy Carroll (actually no I wouldn't sell anyone with such a name, but that might be a Dutch thing

)
Siebe van den Bos
Tommy Denezhkina

Though you might want to keep one or two of these as backup winger or striker, in case injury hits you, or if finance doesn't allow some cheap, but still better, players as replacements on some positions, since this would leave you with only 14 players (and 3 new future trainees) plus a trainer, which is not enough for a full season of course. I'm not as experienced as other hattrickers here, but I have done quite some minimalistic purchases during the stamina gambit to get half-decent results in the Dutch VIII division alst season, and most of my 2.5 and 3 star players I field now only costed me 5K or less, in euros that is, so emergency replacements buys might be considered too.

As for losing the playoffs on purpose and missing promotion... I think you would certainly not be the only one in the Hattrick world doing so, and whether it is legitimate or not... there are no rules so only the manager behind the club can decide on that i guess.

hmm, crossposted with English Brit, of course..

Melifluous · 11-01-2005, 14:02

Marvellous so no promotion for me this year then [

]

Should get the winners bonus plus the top scorers bonus, but no promotion [

]

Next question, who to fire and who to sell?

Melifluous

Bugger Cross Posting

Ok more stuff here then.

Aatma Ventwhateverthebastardiscalled is not my clown, quite the opposite in fact, he was DEFINATELY on my fire list. Highest leadership in the club and he's a nasty bastard. In fact I just fired him, so please ignore him from now on [

]

11-01-2005, 00:28	#11
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	I agree, but that can be solved by buying a 3rd trainee that only requires the number of injured weeks to promote to the next level. This requires some spare cash but is easily done as a keepers TSI gives a quite acurate measure of his remaining training time. The keeper tool on hottrick.org is very usefull for that. Off course you'll still lose some money doing this but that applies to all trainees that get injured. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

11-01-2005, 02:13	#13
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	Also when you have a lot of time on your hands you can use the predictability of keeper levels to train more than 2 keepers a week. On the day before the actual training is accumulated look for: - keepers who are less than 1 week from gaining a level (depending on your coaches skill and number of assistent goaltending coaches) - who have played in an actual match on the keeper position last week. These keepers will gain training points because they've played on the keeper position last week, albeit at their old club. After training they have gained a level and you can sell again with a profit, This trick does require quite some free time though because you need to buy sufficiently cheap to compensate for the higher selling penalty (players has been at your club extremely short) and his salary. Also there are other people doing this so you can expect some competition. Kemal does this sometimes, maybe he can tell what kind of money this brings you a week. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

11-01-2005, 05:17	#14
yndy Prince Join Date: May 2003 Location: Romania. Posts: 895	Meli, I did not answer so far because I did not know where to start. I have noticed your very good forms for the players signaling you had trained General extensively. I’ll start by answering your question. Training intensity is to be set at 100%. Now that option shouldn’t even be there, 99% of players train at 100% and using other values usually leads to sub-optimal results. The 10 training types are split in several categories (I’m using here the terms we use in Romania, I’m not sure everybody uses similar terms): - specific training: that’s the 5 main skills of the players: defending, scoring, cross pass (winger), playmaking, goaltending. Training one of these skills improves the players playing in that area of the field during league, friendly and cup matches. - Secondaries training: that includes set pieces training, shooting and passing. Training these improve set pieces and passing for all or many of your players which are playing and for set pieces even non-playing. Still, if the players are not very good in their primary skills, you won’t make money out of this training. It generally requires very large amounts of starting cash. - Non-specific training: that includes stamina, which increases stamina very fast for all players but decreases form. The thing is that only midfielders need stamina so normally you won’t need to do this very often. The second is general which improves form and does nothing else, thus it increases short term performances but does nothing for long term. Some players in the top division need to do that for short periods of time to avoid demotion but it does not do good for them in the long term. I am trying to think of a way you could switch your training style and not hurt your team very much and frankly I am not getting anywhere. On top of that I have reached a point where I have no idea what you can do with passable and solid players as I’m not buying that kind of players anymore. Every time I start to put a schedule for things that you need to do, it becomes obvious that you have to tear your team apart and rebuild it from scratch and I’m not sure you want to do that. If you are ready to tear your team apart it might be a good time to sell those passable and solid players in excellent form. Their form will give them a nice sell bonus and if you start doing other things, their form will drop in a matter of weeks. A very important thing, you need to give some stamina to your midfielders. I’d say Erdem de Klaver needs up to 5 weeks to reach a decent level for a midfielder. Since you should do that you could go the road Kemal went when training stamina with 30-40 players one season ago. That’s in the power starts guide I wrote at that time: http://www.ht-arena.com/chimica/?page=kemal . Still it needs a lot of RL time invested in looking at the Hattrick transfer market, looking for the cheapest players in the zillion of players offered for sale. Also going on that path means that you will most probably not manage to do a good show in Division V. One of the disadvantages of stamina training is that you don’t have form anymore hence my suggestion to sell the players in good form in the first place. I’ll stop here and ask you what do you think of this so far. __________________ The one and only

11-01-2005, 09:22	#16
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	Regarding keeper training -> more than 2 keepers per week: That is horrible and time-consuming to do, but the profits can be quite high, and it does always give an escape route for making extra cash in case you suddenly have to spend bigtime unexpectedly (it is how I am financing my 230K stadium expansion, an investment which was nowhere to be found in my original plans for the season). As pp says, you have to know the market quite well, especially early on you'll find yourself checking on keeper after keeper, with only like 5% being about to pop a level, and then, again as pp indicated, you still have to face stiff competition from some fulltime keepertrainers, who make like 10-15 transfers a day, always looking for keepers. Once you learn some of these guys, you can take an easier approach, as you can scan the market for keepers with their club as the last bidder, trusting them with doing the checking, but in that case you'll never find the hidden gems, and you'll always end up with a very marginal profit, if any profit at all, since these guys are ruthless traders, who have money to burn and care little about whether they make 100, 10, or even 1 K profit per purchase. In the meantime, be prepared to see your TS melting away as snow in the sun of course... making this tactic a great way to get poor results in competitive leagues, unless you make so much profit you can purchase yourself big-star players, like those "real keepertrainers" seem to do. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

11-01-2005, 14:00	#19
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	I'm not English brit, so i can't speak for him of course, but I'd say the only reason you want to keep those guys as trainees is because they will already perform well from the start, allowing you to get some decent results, and for that you'll only need 3. I guess you really want your trainees to be below 20 since it helps out greatly in training speed, especially with longer term training programs such as playmaking. Since the season is almost over, these three as well as Bart Young are already getting a bit old (no pun intended) to function as trainees, but that is compensated by the fact that they are already excellent. Therefore, I'd try and pick up a few young (preferably 17 year-olds = 18 next season), solid playmakers with poor stamina, since you'll train that anyway, that shouldn't cost too much I think, leaving you some room to improve your trainer perhaps as well. As for firing players, well I'm not sure on the exact strengths of the English leagues, but i'd certainly do away with: Gavin Cheesman Aatmaj Venkataraman, unless he's a clown, which can't be seen from here, Mark Verspoor Kennedy Mason Quentin Berg Steven Elway Wilmar Gubbels (though you might take a gamble on transferlisting him since he has quite some experience) As well as transferlist: Sandy Cabezas Oskar Rouvé (after a little stamina training, perhaps) Adam Davis Bart Young (after stamina training) Eric Hautala Fred Watson Gregory Hobson Ian Turner Jamie McGowan Richard Alistair Richard Duckworth (perhaps after stamina training) Roddy Carroll (actually no I wouldn't sell anyone with such a name, but that might be a Dutch thing ) Siebe van den Bos Tommy Denezhkina Though you might want to keep one or two of these as backup winger or striker, in case injury hits you, or if finance doesn't allow some cheap, but still better, players as replacements on some positions, since this would leave you with only 14 players (and 3 new future trainees) plus a trainer, which is not enough for a full season of course. I'm not as experienced as other hattrickers here, but I have done quite some minimalistic purchases during the stamina gambit to get half-decent results in the Dutch VIII division alst season, and most of my 2.5 and 3 star players I field now only costed me 5K or less, in euros that is, so emergency replacements buys might be considered too. As for losing the playoffs on purpose and missing promotion... I think you would certainly not be the only one in the Hattrick world doing so, and whether it is legitimate or not... there are no rules so only the manager behind the club can decide on that i guess. hmm, crossposted with English Brit, of course.. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

11-01-2005, 00:46	#12
Dell19 King Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Grantham. Posts: 1,359	Thats an interesting point. Had thought about goalkeepers being much easier to predict when they are about to pop to the next level but not made the connection that it would be extremely useful if an existing keeper was injured.

11-01-2005, 14:02	#20
Melifluous Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In the bar with SF. Posts: 3,024	Marvellous so no promotion for me this year then [] Should get the winners bonus plus the top scorers bonus, but no promotion [] Next question, who to fire and who to sell? Melifluous Bugger Cross Posting Ok more stuff here then. Aatma Ventwhateverthebastardiscalled is not my clown, quite the opposite in fact, he was DEFINATELY on my fire list. Highest leadership in the club and he's a nasty bastard. In fact I just fired him, so please ignore him from now on [] __________________ Isn't it awfully nice to have a penis? Isn't it frightfully good to have a dong? It's swell to have a stiffy, It's divine to own a dick. From the tiniest little tadger To the world's biggest prick! So three cheers for your willy or John Thomas. Hooray for your one-eyed trousers snake.