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Old 15-02-2007, 03:12   #1
Beorn
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Default Beorn the Sword: C3C - BtS noob conversion

And he is looking forward to know how to play this new game.

So I've pretty much overplayed C3C for my own sake and I'm certain I'll have remnants of that in my C4W game. I signed up for team CDZ on SGOTM 4 of the other forum. We'll see how that goes. I also signed up for the 18 players game thing. That one will go bad. If anyone is interested in a co-op MP game, so that I can learn something, I'd welcome the thought.

Questions:
1- Food is power, still true?

2- Civics and religions, do you treat those like governments in C3C, get ASAP and trade for mucho money, or do you play it differently?

3- I read a lot more of whipping in spoilers, is it much better?

4- How do artillery units work now, the civilopedia didn't convince me it was still the same...

5- I understand that civs in CIV are big fans of the status quo. Will the klarius fast conquest approach be met with increased resistance? Is this how they manage large empires as opposed to corruption, by making sure everyone stacks against you?

6- With one strenght of attack only, how does one gadge what to build for offenses?

7- Is the old tech approach of getting techs without wonders and offensive units first, in hopes of trading, still viable?

Thanks everyone.
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Old 15-02-2007, 04:01   #2
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1. Food is power- Yes to a large extent, food lets you run more specialists/ work more cottages more/ more mines etc, not in the same respect in c3c so, food is not power in that you can spam settlers. Civ4 you can get buy with building 2 cities the entire game (conquering the rest).

2. Civics and religions, its upto you how you play it really, religious techs such as meditation etc arn't of that much value to the AI but techs such as code of laws are (courthouses), i personally would say that civic techs are far more important than religous techs as often i dont found a religion and merely take one.

3. Whipping is dramatically improved, im not much of a c3c player anymore so i cant remember much of it but it is very usefull with the happiness caps, it also comes into play with the whole food is power aspect, the more food the higher the population and thus the more you can whip.

4. artillery units are vastly different now, they are now stand alone units that can't be captured and used against you. Not only now can they attack individual units but they inflict collateral damage on other units in that stack regardless of whether or not they beat the inital unit they attacked or not

5.Im not too sure what you mean by this question, are you referring to multi player? regardless the AI are a lot more sensitive in civ4 than c3c, they dont like you picking on their friends. they also can actually attack decently, especially with the new patch.

6. primarily through the promotions a unit an obtain, for instance give units city raider promotions if they are going to attack cities, strength and cover if they're attacking archery units in the open, city defence if they are defending in cities etc etc.

7. Not really, tech trading is not allowed until alphabet that is why the majority of tactics on the higher level centre around racing to alphabet first and selling it off to all the AI that dont have it for every tech you dont have. Grabbing offensive techs however is worthwhile in that you can then go batter folk.

i hope this answers your questions ok, im sure folk who know more about the game will put straight what ive just said shortly.
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Old 15-02-2007, 04:40   #3
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1. Not really, but population is power. Slavery is more important as are specialists and great people but you cannot use both, so you've got to decide at which point what is used (slavery versus caste system). If the food is limited, neither of these features can be used efficiently. So, food enables features but how player uses these features is up to the player. And granary is still a must-build, even more in Civ4 versus Civ3. It is not that simple though.

2. Religion is a nice aspect but not really critical. There is only a handful of critical civics, - Monarchy, Slavery, and Caste system (sometimes against AI Pacifism might be important). Other civics might help but are not critical since you don't win or lose game because of them.

3. Yes, it is.

4. Catapults with collateral are very important. Especially against human players. Other later artillery units are nice but not that critical. To work, cats have to be sacrificed and it is OK because they are cheap. Bombarding city defences is also required but you don't need a catapult horde to do that.

5. There is no corruption, so bigger is always better if you do it right without falling too much behind in techs or alienating other players in a MP game so that they gang up on you while you are still even or slightly behind in techs. If you are much bigger than the sum of those who gang up on you and have even slight tech lead, you win. Just build more units and catapults.

6. You build whatever you can plus many catapults.

7. Not really, farmer's gambit might work occasionally on lower difficulty levels (it is now called Academy gambit or Civil Service slingshot in vanilla but not in warlords or Philosophy slingshot or Great Scientist gambit or whatever) but you have to expand fast and often by military means. If you don't expand, you lose especially in MP games.
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Old 16-02-2007, 21:08   #4
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Alright, thanks a bunch, sounds good.

I guess I got the very basics and can manoeuver into the game. I kept getting high food starts and realized it's easy to give yourself great peeps increase then. I guess it's worth it on the long run, but I still don't fully appreciate them I guess. I'll have to make more for myself.

Re 7- Why not in warlords? Will the AI trade less ? Or is it just much more sensible to axemen/catapults rush?

8- About land improvement: cottages, what's up with those? On most tiles without ressources, the only option you have is a cottage. Is it because I should be a wee bit more patient and wait for mills? I understand that an early cottage becomes huge, but how can one increase food and shield count meanwhile? And forests, are they always best off cleared?
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Old 16-02-2007, 21:41   #5
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7. Depends on particular situation, there is no universal recipe. Some AIs (Tokugawa etc.) will trade only later in game and only with a very nice relationship. Most AIs do not trade most valuable techs until much later. Diplomacy is more tricky and less clear since there is a lot of hidden stuff.

8. If you are big, they can be used to pay maintenance for the empire. Some cottages are always useful and cottage spam is a good way to win space race or get early cultural victory or stay at parity with AIs on higher difficulty. Early in the game especially with financial trait they would keep you afloat while you expand. If terrain permits, building a few in the capital is a good idea because they are multiplied with Bureaucracy (unlike specialists which are not multiplied). There are also a number of things written about city specialization and micromanagement of specialized cities. Cottages in research centers is a very good idea. Improvements there (Granary, Library, University, etc) are usually built with chopping or pop- or cash-rushing or by switching to high-hammer tiles while sharing cottages with adjacent cities. Just keep in mind that to grow, cottages have to be worked all the time.

But this game is very complex, there are many things written already and even more things missing. What I'm saying here is all IMHO and a few very general statements not applicable to every situation but to many situations. They help to survive and get familiar with the game at the beginning IMHO.
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Old 17-02-2007, 04:11   #6
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This is a great discussion and I hope it continues especially for warlord noobs.

The one thing I've had difficulty getting a handle on is the GPs. In C3C it's all about growth but in civ4 it's determining when it's time to turn on the GP farm. Farming and "bread loaves" seem to be the key to this type of specialized city but I can't get a grasp of when to turn them on.

A few things I've learned in MP is using combined arms, cats and proper promotions. Don't discount the underdog early game units, spears and pikes. They are extremely powerful against mounted units.
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Old 17-02-2007, 05:53   #7
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I'm slowly getting the hang of food and specialists, although I'm still not quite at the point of figuring wether making any GP's anywhere is good. I know it's got to be, but I don't get how it beats working tiles yet. I'll figure that in good time I guess. I also noticed that this thread has nearly more views than my PBEM spoiler already, so I'll go work on that.

One thing I'm really not sure about is how to handle shields. It seems to me that shields are provided by hills and unworked forests - where unworked forests suck as tiles in general.

9- I am guessing that you put up over-specialized cities, 1-2-3 near hills to push military out, 1-2-3 near food to spam cottages and push science out (using specialists for shields and GP's) and the rest will just try and contribute to the economy. Or is this completely wrong and is there a balanced tiles approach to it all? I know it is more complex than that, but still, there's got to be a mindset to start from.

10- I take it massing one type of units is going to be met with huge resistance in the matter of either axemen or pikemen early, and so forth along the tech tree. So besides the mandatory pike and archer for stack protection, can one actually use combined arms efficiently against an opponent that has both metal and horses available? If chariots hard-counter axes and spears hard-counter horse archers, is it feasible to meet at even forces and pull a conquest, or do you have to wait for the time when you have a ressource advantage or a large production lead? Or would catapult collateral take care of it all?

11- Scout to size 2, then settler or worker first? The C3C player in me read an outrageous number of worker first starts around, but since you don't start with one, it is probably very sensible.
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Old 17-02-2007, 08:06   #8
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12- In light of reading Sulla's intro to C4, do people actually make wonders now that they give GP points?
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Old 17-02-2007, 11:33   #9
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About forests, - it is a reasonable idea to chop some of them before mathematics and all the rest right after mathematics. They do increase health a little but health can be acquired by capturing health resources. If you need hammers, it is quite possible to build workshops instead of them. With Chemistry, workshops are as good as mines on hills.

9. Sounds about right imho. One city to farm great people in caste system + pacifism + National Epic if you need to (with lots of extra food), a few cities including capital if terrain permits for cottage spam and all the rest to military (unless there are some resources good for research) and minimal maintenance compensation. If it is a peaceful research or culture game, military production better be minimal just to guarantee the required expansion and survival. Of course, there are many exceptions.

10. Archers are pretty useless in the open but rather good for city defence. And as you said, cats in numbers will take care. Against AI, getting to cavalry ages before them is quite possible up to and including emperor level. And with cavalry against longbowmen, catapults are seldom required. May be a few to bring down defences of the cities. But if battling against longbowmen with macemen/knights there better be a few extra catapults to sacrifice to damage the defenders.

11. Worker or workboat first usually. Before this warrior/scout if there is time.

12. Sorry to say that but Sulla's introduction is very well written but very poorly played. Wonders are rather useless in terms of great people points, you can farm much faster and more accurately with great people farm.
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Old 18-02-2007, 20:36   #10
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I disagree to an extent on worker settler production, emporer and above you often need that second city to grab your copper horses so often i go settler at size 2.

Though it has been suggested recently in a few threads at 'the other site' to settle your first few cities primarily for commerce value, even for war mongerers as it means you can pump the science up and take out the AI quickly and easily when you get a tech lead.
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