European Constitution, yes or no?

[Kingreno]

As the Dutch will soon, like in many other countries, get the right to vote yes or no (or abstain) for the new European constitution I'd like to know what you guys would/will vote, and why.

For argumentsake imagine this referendum was Valid for 100%, meaning the reslut would be taken over by the Government. So no "it does not matter anyway" please.

[Rik Meleet]

I voted "no".
The reasons are numerous.
I don't want to give the European Union the power of our social "beleid" (Art I-12),
I don't want to increase military spending by averagely 33% (artikel I-41, lid 3),
I don't want a privatised health-sector (artikel I-3) & (artikel III-166) & (artikel III-122),
I don't want to legalise the bad treatment of animals (artikel III-121),
I don't want to make the Dutch constitution lower in rank than the European (artikel I-6),
etc.

[Melifluous]

OK.

Which tosser voted no?

Do you want the US to take over the world with their Christian Autocracy?

The unification of the European block as an effective economic power is the only non-military way of having a voice loud enough for the US to listen.

Einstein wrote

quote:
I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

I disagree and think that all future wars will be fought with paper or money

I have yet to hear an effective reason NOT to join a stronger EU, that is not tainted by racism or nationalism (sorry didn't need to say it twice )

So please if you have a brain vote Yes, or Ja or Oui or however you say it!

Melifluous

PS. This Url might be something for the Admins to consider? In the name of closer understanding between us Europeans and more openness for the Non-Europeans of course

Wicked X-Post Rik!! Will get back to you on those items

[ERIKK]

Yes! I am a pro...

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

I voted "no".
The reasons are numerous.

The reasons are numerous. However, some of the reasons you list are unfortunately more or less current practice in dutch society. Privatisation is stupid however you look at it, the dutch constitution already is inferior to European law, and dutch politicians are already screwing over the social policy. But the European Union is the only opportunity for our environment, therefor I'm pro anything that gives more power to the union.

This constitution might be too full of compromises, and both ends of the political spectrum wanted that it was more in their favor. It is, however, a starting point. At least some policy will be controlled through the parliament instead of through more compromises between the secretaries of the different states. Not bad for a starting point.

[Pastorius]

Hell no.

We vikings are almost not affiliated with the EU (stupid EEC agreement ), and I hope we will not be either.

Transfer of control of such important economic tools as fiscal and monetary policies to the EU govt. and the ECB respectively would not benefit the small open economy that is Norway.

The above is not a scientific approach (as in yours truly speaking as an economist), but my personal opinion, backed to some extent by economic theory []



Lemme just add for good measure: I dont really like the US federation system either...


Rik seems to indicate what points I would care about if I was Dutch though

quote:
Posted by the spammy one (the force is strong with him):

I have yet to hear an effective reason NOT to join a stronger EU, that is not tainted by racism or nationalism (sorry didn't need to say it twice )

Well at least it is not a racistic motivation. I ve just read up on nationalism too, so I get your point []

On ethics & laws: I disagree with many of those decisions done by the EU govt (although Norwegian govt seems to roll over and implement every such decision into Norwegian law structure)

On free trade: I ll be damned if I was not pro free trade, though more damned if I was pro "EU based free trade". Much like the WTO stuff, this type of free trade has too many flaws for my liking, and that is just inter-EU trade. A toll barrier vs rest of the world is not promoting free trade, and is not efficient at all.

On "giving up control" of Norway:
Norway is a small open economy, and I cannot see immediate benefits of joining the EU, nor signing the constitution had we been members.
Using Giovanni Sartori's definition of relevant vs irrelevant parties, and holding Norway's potential representatives to the EU parliament as a "party" in the parliament, they would count as an irrelevant party because they do not have coallition potential, nor blackmail potential, and they would be one of the smallest "parties" represented.

Which means in short: They come, exploit Norwegian territorial waters for our fish, and leave us screwed []

[Darkness]

I "don't know" at the moment.... I'm leaning towards a "yes", but I've still got some time to make up my mind...

[Matrix]

Basicly I don't know. This 'constitution' (it's actually a treaty, or so I heard) is very technical and I do not want to dig into the material; doesn't interest me. That's also why I was against the referendum in the first place: let the politicians, to whom we gave a mandate, decide. They know much better what it's about.

This is why I will vote "yes". I voted CDA, and CDA is pro, and I trust their judgement.

[Swingue]

OK as one of the most pro-Europeans here I voted yes, but I would prefer not to vote at all.
This referendum, like most others, is a stupid idea.
If I have difficulty realizing what the effect of the 'constitution' is, while I am well informed about Europe and the EU how the hell can the rest of my country make a sound decision.

I am AGAINST referenda!

For the matters of the constitution, there is not much new here. It combines most treaties and finally states clear who has what mandate. For those who are against I only hear the following reasons:

1. It is bad cause our national constitution will be lower than the european consitution
2. It is bad cause they arrange 'bad' things in the constitution (see Rik's reply)
3. It is bad cause it could be better.

1. Wake up and smell the coffee, you're living in the world not on an island. Some things have to be arranged on a higher level (are you against the declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention as well?)
2. There are no 'bad' things added which weren't there in the first place.
3. True, but if you wait for utopia you can wait very long, it is a start, which definatly improves the current situation.

@Paal: I love Norway, and the way I look at it, you can get best of two worlds. You can profit from being connected to EU and its laws and you can skip those which are not favourable to Norway. As i said before, you are one of the best in implementing EU law

[Socrates]

I won't vote because I don't have my vote card.

I think the idea of a referendum is stupid.

I'm leaning towards the NO, but also think it will bring nothing at all, thus tempting me to vote YES. Rebels of today won't do the Revolution.

Watch out France on May 29th. It could get bloody. The NO was ahead in polls for several weeks.

EDIT : I voted "I abstain" in this poll.