Ring City Placement and Palace Jump, exploits?

Aggie · 11-07-2003, 11:53

At CFC there's a discussion going on about this great article.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=57026

In a sense this article describes how you can profit from a programming bug regarding the way corruption is calculated. As a result you can lower corruption by placing your cities in a certain pattern.

And then we also have the palace jump. Also a design feature with which it is possible to abandon the capital and get the palace in a place you desire.

I think those are exploits that are not in the spirit of the game. What do you think and why?

ERIKK · 11-07-2003, 12:00

Ring city placement on purpose sucks (I think) because the other player
should do it too to get as much g/p/t. Then you always will get the same
pattern game after game. But I am sure none of us will do this IMO.

Palace jump on purpose sucks of course because it was not intented by the
programmers to be used this way... But you should not prohibit it either
IMO. If people that much need such a thing they are stuck in an awefull
location and deserve a new one in a PBEM IMO!

Also palace jump isn't prohibited in GOTM and tourny either IIRC!!!

Aggie · 11-07-2003, 12:04

For me it's not about if it's prohibited in GOTM and the tourny. It's more that I have the same concern as ERIKK and that the game loses a certain charm because you are forced to use these techniques because the other player may also use it.

Eldakkar · 11-07-2003, 12:17

I don't think a palace jump is a so called exploit. There are people who say so because the ai can't do it.
But there are a whole lot of things the ai can't do:

- suicide galleys
- preparing for mass upgrades and disconnecting resources thereafter so as to build a new lot of cheap units for another mass upgrade

And there are many many more naturally

A palace jump is within the rules of the game. And it is not that easy to perform all the time imho. I am very glad that this exists, the only other way to move your palace is getting a leader. There are however many games in which you do not get a leader or you get it much too late.

Ring city placement is nice but usually strategic decisions or geographical reasons will make you deviate from the ring pattern.
I am not so scared that all human civs will look the same eventually.

ERIKK · 11-07-2003, 12:23

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Eldakkar

I am not so scared that all human civs will look the same eventually.

Me neither of course!

Aggie · 11-07-2003, 12:26

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Eldakkar

I don't think a palace jump is a so called exploit. There are people who say so because the ai can't do it.
But there are a whole lot of things the ai can't do:

- suicide galleys
- preparing for mass upgrades and disconnecting resources thereafter so as to build a new lot of cheap units for another mass upgrade

And there are many many more naturally

Suicide galleys and mass upgrades were implemented intentionally. I see the palace jump and RCP as programming bugs. That's the difference imho.

Kemal · 11-07-2003, 12:36

As these are two totally different techniques I'll split my answer into two, first my view regarding the use of the "free palace jump":

I agree this method is abusing a (not very well thought out) game mechanic and therefore can be classified as an "exploit", however I personally would strongly disagree with banning this one from the PBEM-environment because of its balancing effect on 2 player games. The main use of a palace jump is to act as a back-up plan in the event of a severe leader-draught, to be able to move the capital from a sometimes very bad position, where it's greatly hurting one's economic output of the empire. With the general approach of PBEMs being somewhat militaristic, the lack of a leader and thus the possibility of creating a 2nd palace on a decent location can mean game over if the other player does get one early on.
Having the possibility to disband your own capital (and, also combined with the efforts it requires to get the capital at the correct spot, it is a heavy price IMO, especially when not playing against crappy AI) the importance of getting that first leader greatly diminishes, reducing the luck factor of the game and allow for a player to continue putting up a challenge even when haunted by bad luck. (And with only 1/16 chance for getting the leader, such bad luck will surface every once in a while).

Concerning RCP, it is bad that Firaxis has made such a miscalculation in their formula defining city corruption, but I don't necessarily see this as an exploit, because this is how the formula works. This just becomes another factor to consider when doing initial city placement, next to the usual factors as resource spread, enemies' positions, strategically important locations etc.
Also, it seems to me it's very rare that the map is built in such a manner you can take real profit from this, an early settler factory seems worth much more to me than correct ring placement, especially against human opponents. I also believe that if this would be disallowed, it could lead to arguments about how people place their cities, if for example "unintentionally" a player's placement of his/her cities takes more advantage of this faulty calculation of corruption than the other human's placement does.

Eldakkar · 11-07-2003, 12:41

Like you say, Aggie, maybe it is a matter of opinion, and where you draw the line. I think the mobilization exploit and the changing from wealth to production exploits are real programming bugs. BTW the palace jump in the sense that you get a new capitol after yours has been destroyed is quite intentional imho.
How do you feel about shiphopping?

Aggie · 11-07-2003, 12:45

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

The main use of a palace jump is to act as a back-up plan in the event of a severe leader-draught, to be able to move the capital from a sometimes very bad position, where it's greatly hurting one's economic output of the empire. With the general approach of PBEMs being somewhat militaristic, the lack of a leader and thus the possibility of creating a 2nd palace on a decent location can mean game over if the other player does get one early on.
Having the possibility to disband your own capital (and, also combined with the efforts it requires to get the capital at the correct spot, it is a heavy price IMO, especially when not playing against crappy AI) the importance of getting that first leader greatly diminishes, reducing the luck factor of the game and allow for a player to continue putting up a challenge even when haunted by bad luck. (And with only 1/16 chance for getting the leader, such bad luck will surface every once in a while).

I don't agree that this is mainly a back up plan. You can decide very early in the game that the location of the palace is bad. When you then decide to use the palace jump you can make sure that the capital gets almost no improvements, so that a palace jump doesn't cost that much (or even nothing).

Kemal · 11-07-2003, 13:02

You're right Aggie, I should have said "for me" it's mainly a back-up plan.

You can indeed plan early if you're palace is at a rotten location, but jumping the palace involves more than just disbanding the capital. To get it at the right location usually involves heavy placement of cities around the designated target city or heavily dogpiling one specific city with native workers and decreasing the size of core-cities which usually have lots of cities around them in the 8x8 square.
Getting a leader requires no effort at all, and allows the palace to be built instantly at the perfect location without having to invest resources in preparing it to be the one the game will let the palace jump to.

Also, not investing in the capital also puts you behind on your opponent if he does invest in it, since it is your only crime free city, which thus generates your highest amount of income per tile used.

11-07-2003, 11:53	#1
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	Ring City Placement and Palace Jump, exploits? At CFC there's a discussion going on about this great article. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=57026 In a sense this article describes how you can profit from a programming bug regarding the way corruption is calculated. As a result you can lower corruption by placing your cities in a certain pattern. And then we also have the palace jump. Also a design feature with which it is possible to abandon the capital and get the palace in a place you desire. I think those are exploits that are not in the spirit of the game. What do you think and why?

11-07-2003, 12:36	#7
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	As these are two totally different techniques I'll split my answer into two, first my view regarding the use of the "free palace jump": I agree this method is abusing a (not very well thought out) game mechanic and therefore can be classified as an "exploit", however I personally would strongly disagree with banning this one from the PBEM-environment because of its balancing effect on 2 player games. The main use of a palace jump is to act as a back-up plan in the event of a severe leader-draught, to be able to move the capital from a sometimes very bad position, where it's greatly hurting one's economic output of the empire. With the general approach of PBEMs being somewhat militaristic, the lack of a leader and thus the possibility of creating a 2nd palace on a decent location can mean game over if the other player does get one early on. Having the possibility to disband your own capital (and, also combined with the efforts it requires to get the capital at the correct spot, it is a heavy price IMO, especially when not playing against crappy AI) the importance of getting that first leader greatly diminishes, reducing the luck factor of the game and allow for a player to continue putting up a challenge even when haunted by bad luck. (And with only 1/16 chance for getting the leader, such bad luck will surface every once in a while). Concerning RCP, it is bad that Firaxis has made such a miscalculation in their formula defining city corruption, but I don't necessarily see this as an exploit, because this is how the formula works. This just becomes another factor to consider when doing initial city placement, next to the usual factors as resource spread, enemies' positions, strategically important locations etc. Also, it seems to me it's very rare that the map is built in such a manner you can take real profit from this, an early settler factory seems worth much more to me than correct ring placement, especially against human opponents. I also believe that if this would be disallowed, it could lead to arguments about how people place their cities, if for example "unintentionally" a player's placement of his/her cities takes more advantage of this faulty calculation of corruption than the other human's placement does. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

11-07-2003, 13:02	#10
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	You're right Aggie, I should have said "for me" it's mainly a back-up plan. You can indeed plan early if you're palace is at a rotten location, but jumping the palace involves more than just disbanding the capital. To get it at the right location usually involves heavy placement of cities around the designated target city or heavily dogpiling one specific city with native workers and decreasing the size of core-cities which usually have lots of cities around them in the 8x8 square. Getting a leader requires no effort at all, and allows the palace to be built instantly at the perfect location without having to invest resources in preparing it to be the one the game will let the palace jump to. Also, not investing in the capital also puts you behind on your opponent if he does invest in it, since it is your only crime free city, which thus generates your highest amount of income per tile used. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

11-07-2003, 12:00	#2
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	Ring city placement on purpose sucks (I think) because the other player should do it too to get as much g/p/t. Then you always will get the same pattern game after game. But I am sure none of us will do this IMO. Palace jump on purpose sucks of course because it was not intented by the programmers to be used this way... But you should not prohibit it either IMO. If people that much need such a thing they are stuck in an awefull location and deserve a new one in a PBEM IMO! Also palace jump isn't prohibited in GOTM and tourny either IIRC!!!

11-07-2003, 12:04	#3
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	For me it's not about if it's prohibited in GOTM and the tourny. It's more that I have the same concern as ERIKK and that the game loses a certain charm because you are forced to use these techniques because the other player may also use it.

11-07-2003, 12:17	#4
Eldakkar Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 142	I don't think a palace jump is a so called exploit. There are people who say so because the ai can't do it. But there are a whole lot of things the ai can't do: - suicide galleys - preparing for mass upgrades and disconnecting resources thereafter so as to build a new lot of cheap units for another mass upgrade And there are many many more naturally A palace jump is within the rules of the game. And it is not that easy to perform all the time imho. I am very glad that this exists, the only other way to move your palace is getting a leader. There are however many games in which you do not get a leader or you get it much too late. Ring city placement is nice but usually strategic decisions or geographical reasons will make you deviate from the ring pattern. I am not so scared that all human civs will look the same eventually.

11-07-2003, 12:41	#8
Eldakkar Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 142	Like you say, Aggie, maybe it is a matter of opinion, and where you draw the line. I think the mobilization exploit and the changing from wealth to production exploits are real programming bugs. BTW the palace jump in the sense that you get a new capitol after yours has been destroyed is quite intentional imho. How do you feel about shiphopping?