Inter-Site Demo Game!!!

anarres · 26-11-2003, 15:34

We have been invited to join the upcoming Conquests ISDG!

I have entered CDZ as a participant in the ISDG, and I hope that between us we can give them all a run for their money.

Here is the "U.N." (hosted this time at CDG) - it is run by 1 or 2 people that act as a mediator for the different Civ3 sites that are playing in the ISDG. The people (not the site) running the U.N. are not eligible to play in any side.

I am not very familiar with the Demo Game format (including whether it's "Demo Game", "DemoGame" or "Demo-Game"!

), so I am hoping that we can learn together exactly how this works.

We will be looking for people at CDZ to "drive" this - depending on participation and enthusiasm this role/roles could emcompass very little or a whole lot. Please post here if you think you will want to join in, and whether you are interested in taking an organisational role.

Any questions (and general advice) are also more than welcome...

Shabbaman · 26-11-2003, 15:42

I'll join, but only if we have a corresponding CDZ demogame RPG

Skyfish · 26-11-2003, 15:43

Finally !

I am in

The DemoGame format is not interesting IMO, it s a very cumbersome procedure for ppl who have nothing to do all day it seems. You have to elect ppl that will handle eachone a city

or a sector (military, trade, etc...)

: just an excuse to generate endless discussions on chats and fora

We dont need that crap: we can have a team, talk together about the general strat and then have available ppl play the turns... Lets keep it simple !

ProPain · 26-11-2003, 15:52

I wanna join but time wont permit me to do a lot of organisational tasks though. The ladder is already suffering as it is.

anarres · 26-11-2003, 16:02

Shabba - can you explain more about the RPG aspect please.

Sky - the format will be whatever people want it to be. there is no reason we can't have a mixture of several 'styles'...

ProPain - you shouldn't need much time to add your thoughts to the mix when the time comes.

P.S. One thing to consider is if we are in this to win or to have fun, or a bizarre combination of both.

Skyfish · 26-11-2003, 16:07

Is that last question a sarcasm ?

Am sure we can both have fun and crush their little miserable balls !

Beam · 26-11-2003, 16:37

Count me in as well.

Lets keep it simple and straightforward and let them suffer

Time is quite restricted on my site so an organisational role is probably overambitious.

Skyfish · 26-11-2003, 16:46

You got a web site Beam ?

Skyfish · 26-11-2003, 17:18

We should all get CDG log ins I guess...

I must say I am seriously impressed by that list of exploits from MZO ! I think I want it applied in all my PBEMs

The following is a list of some known exploits. Note that these are not all the exploits, so if an exploit doesn't appear here, it is still illegal. The administator may edit this list as exploits are discovered/fixed.
1. Alliance tricks

Basically the idea of most points in this section revolves around two teams flipping back and forth between peace and war to abuse certain game mechanics.

1.1 Getting double-duty out of artillery and Workers

Two (or more) teams can get double (triple...) use of bombardment units and Workers by using the units on their respective turns, then letting their "enemy" capture and use them in turn. When facing an alliance of two civs with 20 Catapults among them, it's quite disconcerting to have to face 40 rounds of bombardment.

The simple solution is to require alliances and peace treaties to be respected through in-game diplomacy.

1.2 Sharing a Luxury or Strategic resource

Two teams can get the use of a single resource by repeated gifting and then cancelling of the trade. One Iron should only supply one civ at a time.

Repeated cancellation of trade is okay for supplying bursts of a resource for a civ upgrade, as long as it is not also being used for making a dual supply out of one resource.

1.3 Generating Leaders by sacrificing cheap units

A team can build a bunch of Warriors and let another team slaughter them with Elites, in hopes of generating a Great Leader. This is actually quite costly, but the results can be dramatic (fast Forbidden Palace or Palace) if the teams get lucky.

The solution to this one is the same as in 1.1.

1.4 Declaring war for happiness

Two teams can declare war on each other for purposes of generating a little Happiness, which can lead to increased production through WLTKD.

1.5 Exchanging map/minimap information before Astronomy.

In Conquests, map trading is pushed back to Astronomy. If two teams can exchange maps out-of-game, the Seafaring trait becomes a lot less attractive.

2. Metagame tricks

2.1 Reloading to alter unwanted random results

It is possible to alter the results of combat (even with preserve random seed turned on) by reloading the save and playing out the turn slightly differently (i.e. by attacking in a different order, or basically by playing around with things that trigger the RNG). This can result in finding highly one-sided battles, and the appearance of an inordinate number of Elites and Great Leaders.

The simple solution is to require each team to open the save only once. This means that only one sequence of moves/orders is allowed to be viewed per save.

2.2 Manipulating a savegame file

Crafty players use the PBEM savegames to obtain information, or worse.

Again, let's play Civ3. If we allow tools like MapStat, then the door is wide open for any other file-manipulation program, which is a can of worms.

2.3 Loading a save while zoomed out

A team's turn-player can configure his or her game to be zoomed out, then load a PBEM savegame, which can reveal certain facts about the previous team's location.

Solution: all teams must agree to zoom in before loading the savegame and/or zoom in before saving the game.

2.4 Renaming units/cities to confuse/mislead opponents

Cities can be renamed to names of techs ('Monotheism') or sums of Gold ('210 Gold') or anything else that can be traded in the diplomacy screen. This allows a team to screw over another in a very weird way.

Worker and Settler names can be interchanged to hide their identities in stacks (since their stats are the same). Units with identical stats can be renamed for the same effect (Enkidu Warriors and Spearmen, Ancient Cavalry and Gallic Swordsmen).

Units/cities, therefore, may not be renamed for the specific purpose of fooling opponents.

3. Game Mechanics tricks

3.1 Fortifying a ship without any movement points left to obtain extra vision radius

A ship that fortifies sees an extra 1 tile in all directions at the beginning of the next turn. This can be accomplished by waking up the passengers of a ship (if there are any), and giving the Fortify All order.

3.2 Hitting F1 to change production

It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and change production before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue. This can result in tech-enabled units and Wonders being completed the very turn the tech is researched, or production to be changed in response to an enemy's actions (like Walls if a stack moves toward a specific city and not another).

3.3 Using GoTo to get extra movement

The last civ in the turn order can issue a GoTo command to a unit, and have that unit move twice before the next turn begins. This is very strong in war-time, and benefits one team only.

3.4 Chaining naval transports to quickly move land units across water

It is possible to wake a land unit at sea, and transfer it from one transport to another. Given enough ships, a chain can be created to instantaneously move units across bodies of water (by ending in port).

3.5 Teleporting units by abandoning or gifting cities

A team can instantaneously transport units from any city back to their capital by simply disbanding it or gifting it to another team. This results in very weird strategy.

3.6 Accepting a Peace Treaty from a civ then immediately declaring war

A team at war with another can accept the latter's Peace Treaty, then declare war afterward in order to eliminate War Weariness from that civ. This results in a huge advantage if the peace-seeking team is not aware of the trick.

Grille · 26-11-2003, 17:34

Well.... got no demo game experience, don't want to see how organisational tasks eat up my time and I am not the biggest fan of role-playing...
so...
count me in!

I could occasionally play turns or just contribute to some spammy discussion.

Agree with Sky & Beam along the lines to keep it straight and simple.
Also, I tink the "bizarre combination of both" should be our aim...

26-11-2003, 15:34	#1
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Inter-Site Demo Game!!! We have been invited to join the upcoming Conquests ISDG! I have entered CDZ as a participant in the ISDG, and I hope that between us we can give them all a run for their money. Here is the "U.N." (hosted this time at CDG) - it is run by 1 or 2 people that act as a mediator for the different Civ3 sites that are playing in the ISDG. The people (not the site) running the U.N. are not eligible to play in any side. I am not very familiar with the Demo Game format (including whether it's "Demo Game", "DemoGame" or "Demo-Game"! ), so I am hoping that we can learn together exactly how this works. We will be looking for people at CDZ to "drive" this - depending on participation and enthusiasm this role/roles could emcompass very little or a whole lot. Please post here if you think you will want to join in, and whether you are interested in taking an organisational role. Any questions (and general advice) are also more than welcome... __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

26-11-2003, 15:42	#2
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,493	I'll join, but only if we have a corresponding CDZ demogame RPG __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

26-11-2003, 15:43	#3
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Finally ! I am in The DemoGame format is not interesting IMO, it s a very cumbersome procedure for ppl who have nothing to do all day it seems. You have to elect ppl that will handle eachone a city or a sector (military, trade, etc...) : just an excuse to generate endless discussions on chats and fora We dont need that crap: we can have a team, talk together about the general strat and then have available ppl play the turns... Lets keep it simple ! __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

26-11-2003, 15:52	#4
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	I wanna join but time wont permit me to do a lot of organisational tasks though. The ladder is already suffering as it is. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

26-11-2003, 16:02	#5
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Shabba - can you explain more about the RPG aspect please. Sky - the format will be whatever people want it to be. there is no reason we can't have a mixture of several 'styles'... ProPain - you shouldn't need much time to add your thoughts to the mix when the time comes. P.S. One thing to consider is if we are in this to win or to have fun, or a bizarre combination of both. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

26-11-2003, 16:07	#6
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Is that last question a sarcasm ? Am sure we can both have fun and crush their little miserable balls ! __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

26-11-2003, 16:37	#7
Beam c00l b33r Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beat 'm up Scotty!. Lives in the Lands that are Nether. Posts: 5,094	Count me in as well. Lets keep it simple and straightforward and let them suffer Time is quite restricted on my site so an organisational role is probably overambitious. __________________ That was a pretty good gamble. -- Scotty, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2821.5, Episode 14 Linux never looked this good!

26-11-2003, 16:46	#8
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	You got a web site Beam ? __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

26-11-2003, 17:18	#9
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	We should all get CDG log ins I guess... I must say I am seriously impressed by that list of exploits from MZO ! I think I want it applied in all my PBEMs The following is a list of some known exploits. Note that these are not all the exploits, so if an exploit doesn't appear here, it is still illegal. The administator may edit this list as exploits are discovered/fixed. 1. Alliance tricks Basically the idea of most points in this section revolves around two teams flipping back and forth between peace and war to abuse certain game mechanics. 1.1 Getting double-duty out of artillery and Workers Two (or more) teams can get double (triple...) use of bombardment units and Workers by using the units on their respective turns, then letting their "enemy" capture and use them in turn. When facing an alliance of two civs with 20 Catapults among them, it's quite disconcerting to have to face 40 rounds of bombardment. The simple solution is to require alliances and peace treaties to be respected through in-game diplomacy. 1.2 Sharing a Luxury or Strategic resource Two teams can get the use of a single resource by repeated gifting and then cancelling of the trade. One Iron should only supply one civ at a time. Repeated cancellation of trade is okay for supplying bursts of a resource for a civ upgrade, as long as it is not also being used for making a dual supply out of one resource. 1.3 Generating Leaders by sacrificing cheap units A team can build a bunch of Warriors and let another team slaughter them with Elites, in hopes of generating a Great Leader. This is actually quite costly, but the results can be dramatic (fast Forbidden Palace or Palace) if the teams get lucky. The solution to this one is the same as in 1.1. 1.4 Declaring war for happiness Two teams can declare war on each other for purposes of generating a little Happiness, which can lead to increased production through WLTKD. 1.5 Exchanging map/minimap information before Astronomy. In Conquests, map trading is pushed back to Astronomy. If two teams can exchange maps out-of-game, the Seafaring trait becomes a lot less attractive. 2. Metagame tricks 2.1 Reloading to alter unwanted random results It is possible to alter the results of combat (even with preserve random seed turned on) by reloading the save and playing out the turn slightly differently (i.e. by attacking in a different order, or basically by playing around with things that trigger the RNG). This can result in finding highly one-sided battles, and the appearance of an inordinate number of Elites and Great Leaders. The simple solution is to require each team to open the save only once. This means that only one sequence of moves/orders is allowed to be viewed per save. 2.2 Manipulating a savegame file Crafty players use the PBEM savegames to obtain information, or worse. Again, let's play Civ3. If we allow tools like MapStat, then the door is wide open for any other file-manipulation program, which is a can of worms. 2.3 Loading a save while zoomed out A team's turn-player can configure his or her game to be zoomed out, then load a PBEM savegame, which can reveal certain facts about the previous team's location. Solution: all teams must agree to zoom in before loading the savegame and/or zoom in before saving the game. 2.4 Renaming units/cities to confuse/mislead opponents Cities can be renamed to names of techs ('Monotheism') or sums of Gold ('210 Gold') or anything else that can be traded in the diplomacy screen. This allows a team to screw over another in a very weird way. Worker and Settler names can be interchanged to hide their identities in stacks (since their stats are the same). Units with identical stats can be renamed for the same effect (Enkidu Warriors and Spearmen, Ancient Cavalry and Gallic Swordsmen). Units/cities, therefore, may not be renamed for the specific purpose of fooling opponents. 3. Game Mechanics tricks 3.1 Fortifying a ship without any movement points left to obtain extra vision radius A ship that fortifies sees an extra 1 tile in all directions at the beginning of the next turn. This can be accomplished by waking up the passengers of a ship (if there are any), and giving the Fortify All order. 3.2 Hitting F1 to change production It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and change production before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue. This can result in tech-enabled units and Wonders being completed the very turn the tech is researched, or production to be changed in response to an enemy's actions (like Walls if a stack moves toward a specific city and not another). 3.3 Using GoTo to get extra movement The last civ in the turn order can issue a GoTo command to a unit, and have that unit move twice before the next turn begins. This is very strong in war-time, and benefits one team only. 3.4 Chaining naval transports to quickly move land units across water It is possible to wake a land unit at sea, and transfer it from one transport to another. Given enough ships, a chain can be created to instantaneously move units across bodies of water (by ending in port). 3.5 Teleporting units by abandoning or gifting cities A team can instantaneously transport units from any city back to their capital by simply disbanding it or gifting it to another team. This results in very weird strategy. 3.6 Accepting a Peace Treaty from a civ then immediately declaring war A team at war with another can accept the latter's Peace Treaty, then declare war afterward in order to eliminate War Weariness from that civ. This results in a huge advantage if the peace-seeking team is not aware of the trick. __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

26-11-2003, 17:34	#10
Grille Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a swamp. Posts: 901	Well.... got no demo game experience, don't want to see how organisational tasks eat up my time and I am not the biggest fan of role-playing... so... count me in! I could occasionally play turns or just contribute to some spammy discussion. Agree with Sky & Beam along the lines to keep it straight and simple. Also, I tink the "bizarre combination of both" should be our aim...