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Old 11-03-2004, 17:17   #11
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Melifluous

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

BTW I've always had a problem with walls disappearing above size 7, this, it makes no sense at all...
Makes perfect sense to me, look inside any major city and you will find either the remains of the old city wall (which offers no protection, its IN the city) or pubs called the City Wall which would have been where the walls were when the town was smaller...

Melifluous
Don't agree. Well, yes, Paris is a good example of a major city where you can find older, smaller walls near the center. But until the 19th century, walls have always been rebuilt at the new limits. Cities of size 7-12 can be reached in the Ancient Age (like historical Rome, I believe)... And even now we have new walls in way of the "Périphérique" (kind of a motorway around the capital) !!! I think that walls in little towns should be free to upkeep and have a little bonus, whereas walls in medium cities should be charged 1 gpt and have a better bonus.

Metros should forget walls anyway, as historically it doesn't make sense (agree with Meli), and in the game, once you have metros (Sanitation), you already know Metallurgy which cancels the effects of the GW, the only exception being the new feature for the Theater (size 20 available before Metallurgy, well just make a requirement to know Metallurgy before completing the Theater, and you're off, baby).

Alright about WW, nuff said !!! Well, yes, I know a link that explains that pretty well (CFC academy, I think). Just being in Anarchy doesn't help, uh ? Like if I come back to Republic after 5 turns, my WW points stay the same (or worse ?) ?
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Old 05-02-2005, 20:05   #12
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Might as well bump an old thread of mine...

You'll see the reasons in my spoiler (to be updated later), but in my game versus Stapel, I declared war on him in the early game. I have questions about it.

1- I guess Stapel is now enjoying war happiness (1 happy citizen for 4 citizens), is that right ?

2- If we stay at war for some time and no great battles are fought (meaning : not many war weariness points are added to anyone), will he lose some war happiness points through time ? I assume no, since I was on the other side versus Beam for the entire game, and kept my happiness for a very long time.

3- Of course in Despotism you don't get war weariness, but you can still increase it in points. If I revolt to Republic someday, do I get instant war weariness if enough points have been gained ?

4- If Stapel and I sign peace soon, I suppose that his war happiness stops ?

5- If we then go to war again, will he always get back his war happiness again ? Even if he declares war this time ? Even if it's 5000 years later ?

6- In the previous case, will I get war happiness too ?

7- Finally, what do you think of the trick consisting in having your opponent declare war on you, just to get some war happiness ? By "having your opponent declare war on you", I mean "blackmailing him with military units, so that he's close to having no choice at all but anticipating an attack from you" (he can't know what you're gonna do). Please don't take this last question as me ranting at anyone, I just want opinions. I suppose the program can't deal with it, so it's a matter of human behaviour. I had no choice because Stapel could have struck some targets before I had the chance to acknowledge his attack (ie. entering enemy territory and inflict damage in one turn).
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Old 05-02-2005, 21:50   #13
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

Might as well bump an old thread of mine...

You'll see the reasons in my spoiler (to be updated later), but in my game versus Stapel, I declared war on him in the early game. I have questions about it.

1- I guess Stapel is now enjoying war happiness (1 happy citizen for 4 citizens), is that right ?

2- If we stay at war for some time and no great battles are fought (meaning : not many war weariness points are added to anyone), will he lose some war happiness points through time ? I assume no, since I was on the other side versus Beam for the entire game, and kept my happiness for a very long time.

3- Of course in Despotism you don't get war weariness, but you can still increase it in points. If I revolt to Republic someday, do I get instant war weariness if enough points have been gained ?

4- If Stapel and I sign peace soon, I suppose that his war happiness stops ?

5- If we then go to war again, will he always get back his war happiness again ? Even if he declares war this time ? Even if it's 5000 years later ?

6- In the previous case, will I get war happiness too ?

7- Finally, what do you think of the trick consisting in having your opponent declare war on you, just to get some war happiness ? By "having your opponent declare war on you", I mean "blackmailing him with military units, so that he's close to having no choice at all but anticipating an attack from you" (he can't know what you're gonna do). Please don't take this last question as me ranting at anyone, I just want opinions. I suppose the program can't deal with it, so it's a matter of human behaviour. I had no choice because Stapel could have struck some targets before I had the chance to acknowledge his attack (ie. entering enemy territory and inflict damage in one turn).
1 - Correct.

2 - Your assumption is correct, I did it because you had not found China and I needed to make sure you did not contact them to protect tech trading.

3 - Not sure how this works. In our game I did not have any WW when I went to Rep.

4 - It stops, but if I were stapel I would not sign peace!

5 - The one being declared gets the war happiness. Citizens will remember they were at war however for some time. 20 turns iirc.

6 - See 5.

7 - Nice trick.

Somewhere on CFC there is an excellent topic about WW. It explains in detail how it works, including the thresholds, i.e. levels.
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Old 05-02-2005, 22:00   #14
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Thinking of http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61628, Beam?

You'll keep your war weariness until you do stuff that starts to take away 'points' (negative points are good, positive is bad). Read the thread for the stuff that is 'bad' for war weariness.
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Old 05-02-2005, 23:43   #15
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Thanks Beam for answering in details. Unfortunately, a few points still aren't clear.

- OK, if w're at war again and HE declares, I get some war happiness. But what about him ? Does he get his war happiness from now back ? Stapel assumes so... and that's the whole point of his aggression.

- I know that citizens who rioted against war will remember they were at war for some time, and that this decreases through time, but do citizens also progressively forget that they were at war and that it was good (war happiness) ? Same formula ?

- Thanks Ginger_Ale. In fact I read the article in the war academy that tells about the same as that thread. But I find it difficult to understand, it's not very clear IMHO. And it seems that in PBEMs, human-human wars are different from the rest regarding this issue. I have my experience with my PBEM vs Skyfish : I was in Republic (he was in Monarchy, ready to roll over me), and I lost a lot of units on my soil, got many cities razed... I never suffered any war weariness until Sky captured my last city. I WONDER WHY ?

- Nice trick ? I beg to disagree, but it's my opinion. You might think that I rant against something that is happening against me. That is true in fact, but not true in concept. For a start, I've already thought of sending units to my opponent in the early game, and maybe I'll do it, or more often. But it never occurred to me that you could blackmail someone and get war happiness for a great part of the game. I'm not against the concept of blackmailing with military units, nor against the concept of enjoying a compensation for being declared (Stapel getting war happiness because I declared. I'm against the fact that this war happiness is insanely huge for the cost (one horseman lost ?), and that's exactly what Stapel was after. IMHO this is once again a flaw in the gameplay, and also in historical accuracy (if the obscure points I mentionned are in favour of Stapel here).

Sorry for the long post, I know many dislike it, but hey, if I can't shorten it...
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Old 05-02-2005, 23:53   #16
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It might be a good idea to start at locked war with a human opponent in 1x1 game even with AI involved.
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Old 05-02-2005, 23:55   #17
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It seems to be GA although if I remember well there is a thread / article somewhere with even more detail about the stuff.
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Old 06-02-2005, 00:26   #18
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quote:Originally posted by akots

It might be a good idea to start at locked war with a human opponent in 1x1 game even with AI involved.
Because when you play a game where you're locked at war with someone (like in RoR), you never get war weariness nor happiness ? It could be worth it, though there would be no more deal ever between humans in this kind of games. Anyway in Civ3 you wouldn't lose much...

We could add this to "no UN victory" in PBEMs... Input, comment...?
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Old 06-02-2005, 01:07   #19
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Post is not that long krys. What you call blackmailing is part of the PBEM toolkit imo. And everybody has his/her own toolkit. There are micromanagers, blackmailers, sneakers, negotiaters etc. and combinations of those. If it is within common CDZ practice and the specific ruleset you agreed there isn't an issue.

War happiness is a well known feature in Civ and to an extend balancing war vs. peace decisions. But aren't we all looking to use these features to our advantage? This is a big part of gaming imo. No matter what ruleset you make, in-game or out-game.

My recommendation is to think creative how to handle the situation in your game with Stapel and also think how to avoid being caught with your pants down in the future.
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Old 06-02-2005, 01:43   #20
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You raise valid points, Beam. However that is not exactly what I'm ranting at. Just like when I ranted at what craters or man-o-wars (okay... and dromons, but less ) were in our PBEM, I was not ranting at you Beam using this strategy to beat me.

Stapel has all rights to send a horsie to my land, to blackmail me with it as a threat (though I replied it wasn't a real threat, and it got killed ), etc... And he has all rights to get a war happiness when I declare war on him. I agreed to that, or should I say, I never complained about it (because I had not encountered this situation so far, probably).

Now I'm experiencing something new, and I'm trying to evaluate it. Sending a single unit to get war happiness for the rest of the game (though Stapel immediately offered me peace, I guess he knows what he's doing) ??? It's a bit like if a country provocked another one by initiating an incident at some lost border, and the other country retaliated by nuke !! Ever heard of "proportionate retaliation" ? Well that's what I'm speaking of : you lose almost nothing, but get much, very much. Forget the Republic slingshot or the ToE trick, this is more powerful. The game must have limitations (corruption, pollution, etc...), but there's something missing here obviously.

I reckon I enjoyed a good war happiness in our game too, Beam. I can agree it shouldn't last so much time (in fact I must have kept it until we were really at war, or did I keep it until the end ? ). But I feel better about it : I was only scouting the sea and meeting friends in our game, whereas Stapel threatened my cities, workers and improved tiles. Quite a difference.

Here's hoping Civ4 will act differently here again. And I'm willing to try akots's idea for my next games. I'll look at how many trades I have done in my PBEMs so far, but we must surely not lose much. In Civ4 I hope to trade more with the human opponent too. What if the AIs are so strong that we have to ally against them to survive ? It could be nice to have an AI actually winning a PBEM (not the case in Civ3). Or we could imagine a situation where no direct action between humans are possible (stalemate) unless massive destruction, and so the humans have to compete for something else (space race, cultural race, etc...), and so both believe they get the advantage in a particular trade (leading to intense trading between humans, so as to get the best of it).

I'm dreaming... And a few points still obscure to my taste (see other posts).
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