ANNOUNCEMENT - Page 2

Aggie · 10-05-2004, 08:50

After sleeping over it I decided to I end my pbem vs him. The fun of that game has gone with this announcement anyway.

col · 10-05-2004, 09:21

Its very sad. I hope Sky will post some kind of explanation or apology.

ERIKK · 10-05-2004, 09:30

This sucks very much as I clearly remember the full frontal on
Ribannah (getting slaughtered by our friends Sky and Killer)
and also the CB issue Sky had with him (accusation on cheating)...

If have had a # of chats with Sky on cheating as he thought some of
the players cheated against him (not gonna say who but will tell
anarres/PP if asked for). My general comment has always been that why
on earth would someone lower himself for a stupid ladder... I think
he agreed on that (not sure). I think this opinion on other players
has made him do this. As he knows how to edit games (what kind of
fucking geek goes on hacking these savegames goddamnid!!!

) -
and you know how to trace this - might mean he did that too and found
something out. Or he was just paranoid...

(That's what I always thought but now facing this there might be more
going on...)

col · 10-05-2004, 09:35

Trust is the basis of MP. I guess we all know lots of ways of cheating that we could use - and a small edge is all it needs in most cases.

Erikk's post has a ring of truth about it. Its a small step in one's mind from "they cheated" to "everyone cheats so I might as well cheat too".

Darkness · 10-05-2004, 09:58

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by col

Trust is the basis of MP.

Very true!

This is bad new...

yndy · 10-05-2004, 11:24

OK, this is a sad moment. Me being a practical fellow, think of a way of doing things in the future.

First is good that we’re keeping things in the open here. We’re stating the facts, the accusations, it’s not like the GOTM’s ”we know you cheated and we have proof but we’re not going to show it to you or others”. Sky is welcome to come, state what he thinks, admit/deny, do all the things Ribby did at that time, throw dirt everywhere and stuff. I’m sure we can handle that and we don’t need to moderate or ban anybody on the forum for that.

Second is good to see people are checking other people’s games and cheaters will eventually get caught. I bet Sky hates being banned from the forum for 6 months and also losing all his points in the ladder for three or four games that he would have lost instead of winning. With the turn-by-turn record, cheaters will always get caught even if with circumstantial evidence if they can hide their tampering pretty good. So now I have another reason to keep al saves archived when a game ends.

Third is bad that cheating suspicions will rise for a while in the forum. I hate this and hope I won’t have to answer questions like “how did you get that leader?” because I don’t really log all my moves. I’m not keeping detailed spoilers either and not even extremely careful with the saves. I bet I’m not the only one here. For example, several times I’ve started to play a turn and from sheer foolishness I pressed end-turn, trying to save my moves so far or something. This is a mistake and we’re all allowed to do those and reload. Most of the time I let the other player know about it because I know reloads can be detected. But sometime I don’t and I hate people complaining about it or trying to set rules regarding when you are allowed to reload and when you’re not. I also agree that players which are ‘too lucky’ should be investigated and even ‘convicted’ based on circumstantial evidence only.

That’s what I think about it and I don’t think it has anything to do with the ISDG, it’s not like Sky is playing the turns and all the CDZ team fails to notice temples popping out here and there.

Last thing to add: a, could you please play that turn, I’m getting very bored some days. I don’t care about that issue we had, just send me a turn to play.

Beam · 10-05-2004, 12:15

This is sad news. I really hope however that Sky will stay with us and keep on doing the great contributions to the site.

As other ppl have said, I really hope we can find a practical solution to this and don't fall in PBEM Police paranoia.

@work now, there is more I'd like to say, no time to phrase it atm.

Kemal · 10-05-2004, 12:19

As people who know how I approach and play the game of civ3 will understand, I have put a very large investment of energy, and at least a hundred hours of free time playing this PBEM against Skyfish in the past half a year. Skyfish himself certainly knew about this, as we spoke regularly via MSN, and discussed the topic of my time-consuming approach on playing the game in more than one of these conversations.

Obviously, my time was totally wasted on this game, as Skyfish was manipulating the savegame files in such a way that he got several very large advantages over me, and I'm very saddened and disappointed to have invested my energy in projects that I've been doing together with Skyfish over the past few years, as my history with him goes beyond just the PBEMs played on this site.

However, one thing that is much more painful to me in this case, is something that is even more valuable to me than the wasted energy and time I've put into these projects. A thing that can only be given once IMO, and something which Skyfish has abused in a way that is beyond my comprehensability:

I've given him my trust, and he has not proven a person worthy to recieve it, that much is clear to me now. By the actions made by skyfish in my game against him, he has caused a breach of trust between us that has no hope of ever being fully mended again.

While fully knowing of his acts, and of the time I spent and trust that I gave him, he has chosen not to confess any of his illegal acts at any of the dozens of opportunities that he has had over the past few months, not before starting this game with me, not during the time we played it, and not even after the game had finished and I congratulated him with his victory, even though we have spoken about it when I had already resigned, and not even giving any sign whatsoever when speaking to the persons he was betraying face-to-face on the meeting some of us had in The Hague on the 27th of March this year.

To learn that I have not been the only one that he has been betraying for such a long period, and that he has been trying to hide this away as well from the community here at CDZ, only adds to my changed view I now have of this person.
Someone who has also failed to give any reaction on matters such as how, what and why he has done the things that have been discovered now, even after being given the time and opportunity to do so outside the public fora here on CDZ, but repeatedly failed to take it.

Furthermore, I'd like to add one small thing about the way the case is presented here. Though some people may be happy about the way Skyfish has been communicating with them, or any other things he might have done for this site, I think this is not the thread to be pointing those things out, just beneath the publication of this person commiting the IMO worst crime possible in a community like this, betraying the trust given to him by other members on several occasions, for lengthy amounts of time.
It is my opinion that any decision or judgement on a matter as severe as this one should have the same basis and considerations for any participating member of CDZ, whether him being skyfish, or an unknown member that has just signed on to this board. Any of his personal behaviour and other matters he might have done in the past few years that are totally unrelevant to the matter of him using illegal methods during the PBEMs he has played, and the consequences it should have, should therefore in my opinion have been stated in a separate thread at least, if at all.

Kemal

anarres · 10-05-2004, 12:54

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

It is my opinion that any decision or judgement on a matter as severe as this one should have the same basis and considerations for any participating member of CDZ, whether him being skyfish, or an unknown member that has just signed on to this board.

I can understand your anger Kemal, but you must also understand that the actions we have taken were not affected by anything else Skyfish has done at the site. I can't actually think of any worse punishment that we could have given Sky, apart from a ban from CDZ, and we will not ban anyone from CDZ for cheating in the ladder.

Quote:

quote:

Any of his personal behaviour and other matters he might have done in the past few years that are totally unrelevant to the matter of him using illegal methods during the PBEMs he has played, and the consequences it should have, should therefore in my opinion have been stated in a separate thread at least, if at all.

Whilst you have your own opinions on the consequences of what has happened, so does everyone else, and they have every right to say what they think in this thread. Sky's actions are a reflection on his character, as are his previous actions and participation at the site, and so IMO it is totally relevent to comment on that in this thread.

Please understand I am not saying you shouldn't have this opinion - at CDZ we thrive on openly saying what we think, and you opinion is just as much respected as everyone elses.

ERIKK · 10-05-2004, 13:07

Well said anarres.

There already is a 'Sky is a good guy' thread created by Mel by the way.
I contibuted in that one as I have good memories on Sky.

Kemals post might be taken a little harsh but:
1) Kemal totally goes for a game, as stated in his post
2) Think how Sky would have reacted when this happened to him => Ask Ribannah what happened to her on CFC and CDZ.

10-05-2004, 09:21	#12
col King Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Sandwich Islands. Posts: 1,529	Its very sad. I hope Sky will post some kind of explanation or apology. __________________ I can't be arsed.

10-05-2004, 09:35	#14
col King Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Sandwich Islands. Posts: 1,529	Trust is the basis of MP. I guess we all know lots of ways of cheating that we could use - and a small edge is all it needs in most cases. Erikk's post has a ring of truth about it. Its a small step in one's mind from "they cheated" to "everyone cheats so I might as well cheat too". __________________ I can't be arsed.

10-05-2004, 11:24	#16
yndy Prince Join Date: May 2003 Location: Romania. Posts: 895	OK, this is a sad moment. Me being a practical fellow, think of a way of doing things in the future. First is good that we’re keeping things in the open here. We’re stating the facts, the accusations, it’s not like the GOTM’s ”we know you cheated and we have proof but we’re not going to show it to you or others”. Sky is welcome to come, state what he thinks, admit/deny, do all the things Ribby did at that time, throw dirt everywhere and stuff. I’m sure we can handle that and we don’t need to moderate or ban anybody on the forum for that. Second is good to see people are checking other people’s games and cheaters will eventually get caught. I bet Sky hates being banned from the forum for 6 months and also losing all his points in the ladder for three or four games that he would have lost instead of winning. With the turn-by-turn record, cheaters will always get caught even if with circumstantial evidence if they can hide their tampering pretty good. So now I have another reason to keep al saves archived when a game ends. Third is bad that cheating suspicions will rise for a while in the forum. I hate this and hope I won’t have to answer questions like “how did you get that leader?” because I don’t really log all my moves. I’m not keeping detailed spoilers either and not even extremely careful with the saves. I bet I’m not the only one here. For example, several times I’ve started to play a turn and from sheer foolishness I pressed end-turn, trying to save my moves so far or something. This is a mistake and we’re all allowed to do those and reload. Most of the time I let the other player know about it because I know reloads can be detected. But sometime I don’t and I hate people complaining about it or trying to set rules regarding when you are allowed to reload and when you’re not. I also agree that players which are ‘too lucky’ should be investigated and even ‘convicted’ based on circumstantial evidence only. That’s what I think about it and I don’t think it has anything to do with the ISDG, it’s not like Sky is playing the turns and all the CDZ team fails to notice temples popping out here and there. Last thing to add: a, could you please play that turn, I’m getting very bored some days. I don’t care about that issue we had, just send me a turn to play. __________________ The one and only

10-05-2004, 12:15	#17
Beam c00l b33r Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beat 'm up Scotty!. Lives in the Lands that are Nether. Posts: 5,094	This is sad news. I really hope however that Sky will stay with us and keep on doing the great contributions to the site. As other ppl have said, I really hope we can find a practical solution to this and don't fall in PBEM Police paranoia. @work now, there is more I'd like to say, no time to phrase it atm. __________________ That was a pretty good gamble. -- Scotty, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2821.5, Episode 14 Linux never looked this good!

10-05-2004, 12:19	#18
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	As people who know how I approach and play the game of civ3 will understand, I have put a very large investment of energy, and at least a hundred hours of free time playing this PBEM against Skyfish in the past half a year. Skyfish himself certainly knew about this, as we spoke regularly via MSN, and discussed the topic of my time-consuming approach on playing the game in more than one of these conversations. Obviously, my time was totally wasted on this game, as Skyfish was manipulating the savegame files in such a way that he got several very large advantages over me, and I'm very saddened and disappointed to have invested my energy in projects that I've been doing together with Skyfish over the past few years, as my history with him goes beyond just the PBEMs played on this site. However, one thing that is much more painful to me in this case, is something that is even more valuable to me than the wasted energy and time I've put into these projects. A thing that can only be given once IMO, and something which Skyfish has abused in a way that is beyond my comprehensability: I've given him my trust, and he has not proven a person worthy to recieve it, that much is clear to me now. By the actions made by skyfish in my game against him, he has caused a breach of trust between us that has no hope of ever being fully mended again. While fully knowing of his acts, and of the time I spent and trust that I gave him, he has chosen not to confess any of his illegal acts at any of the dozens of opportunities that he has had over the past few months, not before starting this game with me, not during the time we played it, and not even after the game had finished and I congratulated him with his victory, even though we have spoken about it when I had already resigned, and not even giving any sign whatsoever when speaking to the persons he was betraying face-to-face on the meeting some of us had in The Hague on the 27th of March this year. To learn that I have not been the only one that he has been betraying for such a long period, and that he has been trying to hide this away as well from the community here at CDZ, only adds to my changed view I now have of this person. Someone who has also failed to give any reaction on matters such as how, what and why he has done the things that have been discovered now, even after being given the time and opportunity to do so outside the public fora here on CDZ, but repeatedly failed to take it. Furthermore, I'd like to add one small thing about the way the case is presented here. Though some people may be happy about the way Skyfish has been communicating with them, or any other things he might have done for this site, I think this is not the thread to be pointing those things out, just beneath the publication of this person commiting the IMO worst crime possible in a community like this, betraying the trust given to him by other members on several occasions, for lengthy amounts of time. It is my opinion that any decision or judgement on a matter as severe as this one should have the same basis and considerations for any participating member of CDZ, whether him being skyfish, or an unknown member that has just signed on to this board. Any of his personal behaviour and other matters he might have done in the past few years that are totally unrelevant to the matter of him using illegal methods during the PBEMs he has played, and the consequences it should have, should therefore in my opinion have been stated in a separate thread at least, if at all. Kemal __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

10-05-2004, 08:50	#11
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	After sleeping over it I decided to I end my pbem vs him. The fun of that game has gone with this announcement anyway.

10-05-2004, 09:30	#13
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	This sucks very much as I clearly remember the full frontal on Ribannah (getting slaughtered by our friends Sky and Killer) and also the CB issue Sky had with him (accusation on cheating)... If have had a # of chats with Sky on cheating as he thought some of the players cheated against him (not gonna say who but will tell anarres/PP if asked for). My general comment has always been that why on earth would someone lower himself for a stupid ladder... I think he agreed on that (not sure). I think this opinion on other players has made him do this. As he knows how to edit games (what kind of fucking geek goes on hacking these savegames goddamnid!!! ) - and you know how to trace this - might mean he did that too and found something out. Or he was just paranoid... (That's what I always thought but now facing this there might be more going on...)

10-05-2004, 13:07	#20
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	Well said anarres. There already is a 'Sky is a good guy' thread created by Mel by the way. I contibuted in that one as I have good memories on Sky. Kemals post might be taken a little harsh but: 1) Kemal totally goes for a game, as stated in his post 2) Think how Sky would have reacted when this happened to him => Ask Ribannah what happened to her on CFC and CDZ.