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Old 18-04-2007, 14:23   #41
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So how far do you think BCLG or Darkness is off being able to have Grenadiers, they are good against Cavs right?
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Old 18-04-2007, 14:55   #42
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It does not matter much how far they are from grenadiers (probably BCLG is researching that as we speak, since he got gunpowder a few turns ago), or military tradition for that matter either.

Both these units (though the grenadier still has a tough time vs cavs) are simply too expensive for their economy to produce en masse, so even if they have the proper technology, my assumption is they simply will not be able to field enough of them to get out of the hole they are in now.

And even if they do (mass rushing/upgrading) it will set them back even more in the long run, as it will cripple their future output/research while I set course for flight. Might be I'm too optimistic here (which usually really isn't my style) but those graphs and F9 screens speak for themselves...

Take for example Darkness, who atm has 1 size 11 city (which completed the Haga Sophia a few turns ago ), 2 size 7 cities, 1 size 4 city and a size 2 city, of which 2 are currently besieged and in danger to fall. That leaves one size 11 city and 2 size 7 cities as his productive core + research capabilities. With those 3 cities, he needs to fend off my raiding parties, the American onslaught ánd create an offensive army to besiege American cities. In between, he would also somehow magically need to create grenadiers out of thin air... it simply seems impossible to me.

BCLG is currently in slightly better shape, Cuzco is a strong research center with a lot of villages/town around, though that results in slow production there. He also has 3 other decent cities (size 7, Corihua, Elephantine, Thebes, plus 2 size 4 cities (Memphis, Machu Picchu). He also seems responsible for the research at the other continent now, and I expect him to join in in fighting America soon, considering his severe power-buildup of the last few turns, which as said drains his economy. Maybe he intends to capture american cities then gift them to Darkness, since I don't think he can afford to sustain more cities with his current empire spread.

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Old 18-04-2007, 15:03   #43
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Hmm well it will be interesting to see. I find it much harder to wage war on CivIV as I always under-estimate the defensive bonuses of the opposition.

I also tend to focus on 1 type of unit for offense, so in the case of grenadiers, would'nt it be good to have a couple of units suited against them (cant think of one of the top of my head)
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Old 18-04-2007, 15:17   #44
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Agreed on both observations. Waging war as in taking cities, especially on another continent, is very difficult due to the fact that siege weapons need to be ferried over, which is a logistic nightmare really.

Due to the high defence bonus in cities, actually taking them could prove to be tough even with high level units like level 3 cavs. However, to do damage in a war, there are other options besides taking/razing cities. Pillaging becomes a serious option should they choose to turtle up inside their fortifications, and would permanently damage their economy.

As for focusing on one unit, agreed again, the rock-paper-scissors approach makes one-sided armies very vulnerable to their counterpart... however, for cavs, their natural counter is the rifleman and they both are lightyears away from fielding those. A grenadier is actually the counter for the rifle, but vs the mounted cavs it performs only marginally better than a pike, as the cav is more or less the counter vs grenadiers.

So if I drop 12 cavs near one of their cities, their best bet (catapults aside) is to attack with pikemen, who still "only" manage to get a 110% bonus (ability + combat 1), vs my shocked level 3 cavs 35% bonus (60% if on hills/jungle, 85% if on forest). A not so good chance for victory there for those pikes, and what's even worse, even if they attack, they need to fully kill the stack in one turn, since otherwise I'll just move them back to my galleons again to heal up. A ton of catapults really is your only option, and even those would need to be placed in such a manner that they actually all could reach my surprise party in a few turn... and they have no idea where I'll be coming from.

But it is good that you try to dampen my (over)confidence a bit here, I'm gonna review everything some more when I get the turn again, to see what my best options are.
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Old 18-04-2007, 16:46   #45
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opps your right rifles is the Grenadiers bunny and Cav is the rifles bunny, i got my rock paper scissors mixed up.

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Old 20-05-2007, 12:53   #46
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So, finally yet another update, several things have taken place in the past couple of turns, and I suspect some of you might have read something about it in other spoiler threads (Iirc Darkness's spoiler was updated shortly after some major events).

As a recap, the last things talked about here were some musings on how to effectively use the army of cavs built during the GA, and how well the other continent would be able to set up a defense against the coming wave of attacks (via grenadiers and/or cats?).

So, here will be my take on describing recent turns, seen from the viewpoint of Mali... but to be honest I really don't know where to start, so I'll just post some pics first (after all, a picture says more than a 1000 words), and we'll just go from there:

1130 AD: Attack on Cuzco:

92.59KB


95.2KB


1200 AD: Attack on Philadelphia:


99.34KB


95.74KB


1200 AD: Attack on Thebes:


90.47KB


86.74KB


In short, BCLG turned out to be the intended target of the attack, and it has been really brutal. First of all, in 1130 Malinese troops landed near Cuzco and found in severly undermanned, and despite some last gasp troop upgrades it never really stood a chance to survive. One cavalry was lost and 4 more severely injured, but the city was put to the torch.

This probably was the decisive blow to the Incan empire, and as my wounded cavs simply headed back to the medical frigates to heal somewhere at sea there wasn't even a chance to counterattack, meaning the would live to fight another day.

That other day was only 7 turns later.

As BCLG had indeed joined the war vs Roosevelt, and tried to gain extra territory by invading them with a stack of cats and grenadiers/maces near Philadelphia instead of buckling up and waiting for an invasion of mine (a logical decision even though they probably knew I was coming, as really they needed more territory to be able to compete in the long run). He managed to capture Philadelphia but was held to somewhat of a standstill because of my gang of 2 maces and the horse archer who patrolled through American borders, plus some formidable defenses Roosevelt put up.

This also meant he had to stretch his forces out and leave his eastern side of the empire vulnerable. In 1200 AD, 6 new cavs had landed in New York and made their way to an attack position near Philadelphia, while the remaining 8 vets of the Cuzco campaign disembarked near Thebes (containing Stonehenge, Pyramids, Chichen Itza and a religious shrine). Both fell uncontested, but you might have observed that Philadelphia is now actually an American city again rather than a pile of rubble.

I decided to return control to the American empire when capturing Philadelphia, mostly because I had barely reached "friendly" status with Roosevelt (+10) and I wanted to maintain positive relations to prevent him from declaring on me via some random fluke roll or via bribery by Darkness/BCLG. At the moment, it is actually impossible for him to declare on me IIRC meaning I will have continued usage of his roads and territory to heal/strike and return on the enemy. Razing the city would have angered Roosevelt for a permanent "you razed one of our cities" modifier.

Also, but somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, I think you can use the defensive bonus of the city you are in if it is a city of your ally. I know healing is sped up for sure, not a 100% positive on defense though. And since the city is actually next to Washington I'm positive the Americans will garrison it soon anyway.

I contemplated doing the same with Thebes since the massive cultural influence would have been useful for my cavs there, but since Egypt can't possibly send forces to defend the city, I would have been forced to assign some cavs to do so, and that wasn;t worth it for me, as I only have 8 of them anyway.


So as it stands, I still have 14 cavs active in the area while having taken out a large chunk of BCLG's forces already. The following 2 pics actually show his entire empire as it exists at this date:


86.73KB



84.18KB

Yep, that's all there is and Memphis looks like a goner as well... to be honest, unless Darkness intervenes (he has made peace with both Roosevelt and Egypt some time ago) I think that BCLG might not survive these 14 cavs for very long... They are simply too good to be defended by macemen/axes even in the most mature cities.

And with BCLG gone, what hope is there for Darkness?

Basicly, I'm kinda expecting a resignation soon now, if it is to come at all. They might continue to fight though as I can imagine that surrendering the game even before you have met one of the other players in the game (Matrix is still isolated and has no idea what is going on except seeing BCLG's score dwindle down, I assume) feels somewhat stange. We'll just wait and see.


So, that's the current standing with regard to military matters. For the sake of completeness, I still would like to give some insights on Malinese domestic issues, though (yeah you may skip reading if that's beginning to bore you ).

Contrary to what I think most would have expected, after the expeditionary forces were built during the GA, Mali starting focusing on domestic builds again and switched civics again:


86.43KB

A lot of extra costs due to maintenance but the goal was twofold: the newer cities founded mainly in the east had good food potential and could profit from slavery by rapidly building up key improvements such as granaries, lighthouses and libs, while on the other hand the mature cities collectively embarked on a mission to get the Newton University in Timbuktu. This required 5 more universities in different cities, as Timbuktu already had one. In short, hammers were needed, and lots of them, so theocracy was swapped for organized religion speeding up construction. All military builds were abandoned again.

But science is still making good progress as well, in part due to the money coming in from the military campaign, and good progress has been made on the tech tree:


66.84KB

Since the last update, Mali has taken the Guilds -&gt; Banking -&gt; Economics path, and a great merchant was born in Timbuktu (plus the free market civic, which is a good assett to the economy as well), who is now en route to New York to perform a trade mission there:


57.03KB

Speaking of which, another great scientist just appeared in Rome, and he will be finally constructing an academy in Timbuktu, which will increase science there by over 80 beaker/turn, making it the superior choice over popping part of scientific method (which would obsolete my precious monasteries in Timbuktu anyway):


117.57KB

No demographics to conclude with this time, but there is some news on Matrix, who has finally sent a couple of scouts north to map my lands. A few post ago, I made mention that it worried me since he could sell my map to the other continent, but as it stands it looks like Matrix is actually becoming my biggest rival for the win. He has overcome his economic problems by cottaging and wisely halting his advance on Monty, and is now no longer facing bankruptcy.

With the universities finishing in most major cities, new cavalries are being ordered again, but this time I'm not too sure whether they'll be making a long ocean voyage before seeing some action...
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Old 20-05-2007, 23:29   #47
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Awesome display Kemal.
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Old 22-05-2007, 15:41   #48
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Hmm, Memphis is gone but I was forced to raze it since it borders right on Darkness's empire, and as with Thebes returning control was no option. That means I now have -7 for razing (holy) cities of the Egyptian empire, though they are still cautious atm total due to open borders/trades.

What is worse, America now has a permanent -2 too because of razing holy cities (heh, 3 total now, the hinduism, buddhism and judaism cities... those heretic Malinese). That dropped me to pleased status but I managed to get them friendly again by bribing him to Confucianism, which hopefully he will start spreading on his own now too.

Worst of all, finally, is that war weariness has finally kicked in after taking so many cities, and I'm facing unhappiness in most major cities. Hereditary rule will help out here, but I think I'm going to let BCLG alone for a while, and maybe focus more on Darkness...

In other news, Roosevelt has made it to my continent with his caravels, and has met Matrix. I expect them to trade world maps, but there is little I can do to prevent that. At least I can be fairly sure Roosevelt will not trade his map with either Darkness or BCLG. Kinda wondering what Matrix will think when seeing the map of the other continent though, and whether he will turn hostile soon....
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Old 23-05-2007, 12:04   #49
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Some short (pictureless) updates in quick succession now, but I think it is safe to report that the Malinese overseas campaign is over for now.

Darkness ambushed a few cavs near the ruins of Memphis with 2 WEs and three pikes, and I lost 3 cavs there for his 2 WEs. This makes the total active cavs in the north 5 total, which is not enough to keep on taking cities there (though BCLG seems to have given up on Elephantine, which seems abandoned this turn, but just out of reach.

I'm pulling back those 5 cavs (maybe take Elephantine from the sea if possible) and just focus on patrolling American soil and taking out units whenever possible. Aside of Beijing and BCLG's southern capitol, there aren't many targets of opportunity left anyway.




Also, there has been an interesting message from Matrix this turn. He contacted me saying he could buy a world map from Roosevelt for 270g (seems really cheap to me, considering he knows almost half of the map, so probably that would involve Matrix giving his map too Roosevelt too).

He was wondering whether he could trade the map with me for less, or get it for free, to which I responded that he could get it for free on just one condition: he was not to trade the map with BCLG or Darkness, ever, no matter the situation.

I'm still awaiting his response, but his answer will have a profound effect on the way Mali will review the current and future state of coexistence between our two empires.
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Old 23-05-2007, 13:18   #50
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It appears to me Kemal that you are a safe bet to win this game now. I cant see the combined forces of BCLG/Darkness/Matrix being able to beat you. I'm not saying this based on the other guys spoilers (they report feck all!! except to say X city has fallen to the Malinese empire, by reading you spoiler i get the same info).

You have double the score of your nearest opponent, you are more advanced than them. Even if they got tech par with you, what sort of productive advantage would they need to scratch you? You could hunker down for a boring win, or you could take it to the max.

So how do you think you will win this game? Most likely via retirement from the other players? Or possibly domination?

Its has been very interesting read. so far, i am curious as to how you got so powerful a state in the first place, i must read back over your starting turns again. In my games i always seem to flounder during the expansion phase, and it only in the later stages of the game that the economic foundations that i built early on start to catchup and over take the AI.
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