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Old 25-02-2007, 01:05   #11
Beorn
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I've had time to experiment a little and come back charging and blazing with new questions.

13 - CIV has a built-in civ assist that does everything well except 2 things: tech trading and city about to grow / has grown, which are the features I would argue (we can always <s>spam</s> make another thread for this argument) were most powerful in CA2 for C3C. Are there any ways to mod this? I went through the mods on the other site and didn't find anything relevant (wayyy too many personnal projects and custom unit graphics and not enough useful content for the actual player).

Bottom line: I have seen good graphical re-works of the F4 pages but can't manage to find them, nor find something that will pop when someone learns a new tech. Any help there?

14 - REX. REX is dead now. That's a given. I played a game yesterday where 0% science gave me -15gpt with the vikings and ate my socks. I have the tendency to try things the hard way to see if they really suck, and well, it sucked. So with that in mind, and with the fact that either way you will put on "avoid growth" at some point to save yourself unhappiness, should you resume expanding your empire when you hit your happy cap? So far I haven't been able to consistently hold off Prince AI's, but I find that with 5-6 good early cities, I can make my way through to the IA quite comfortably at noble. I was wondering if this was handicapping, however, since in the end cities don't experience commerce and production waste. In other words, is the momentarily crotch of new cities' upkeep worth it in the end, for a mid-game conquest, later diplo, or late late ship?

15 - About GP and cottages. I read discussions that both can run your economy. My (in)experience tells me that cottages are simpler and effective, but they burn away a city's potential for shields. GP are tricky in use but you can do them both in high shield cities (mass wonders) and high food places (scientists, engineers and whatnot). However doing GP farming does not give you raw gold. So to use these fweatures fully, do you have to do super-uber city specialisation in the way of GP food, GP wonder, cottage gold - and the unexpendable <s>shield</s> hammer military ?

16 - Lumbermills: worth the wait?

17 - @Whomp: from the height of my Noble-but-wanna-be-big-Now *diaper ad music here* play, GP farming in food places begins when you hit the food cap. If you hit cap and lack specialist slots, change civic or pop-rush more improvements. You probably know that much, and much better, and that much better, but I thought I'd try
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Old 25-02-2007, 01:13   #12
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Ok, this one is fustrating: what's with the "can't trade" a technology thing? They either will, won't or can't - but how is it that they cannot ??
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Old 25-02-2007, 02:39   #13
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13) HOF mod latest versions do have most of needed alert features and much more. It is also a standard for GOTM now.

14) A bit of REXing is actually required to beat the higher levels starting from Emperor and it is a good idea to build early 6-8 cities as soon as you can afford that. Build Courthouses and cottages as well as Forbidden Palace. The research rate would be hit severely at some point but with continuing conquest and razing a few cities for cash and strengthening the economy with cottages/improvements (pop-rushed mostly) it is fairly easy plus trading a few techs here and there or extra resources with some AI can contribute to recovery if done right. Do not forget pillaging in the enemy land which you are not planning to conquer in the near future. On lower difficulty levels (Noble and Price) with 6-8 starting cities on large maps (standard size and bigger with low sea or no sea) the easiest way through is to research rapidly to Communism (no distance maintenance) and Military Tradition and go kill everyone with Cavalry for Domination win. If done properly, in some cases you'd be facing only longbowmen up until the end. On Monarch you might see occasional musketmen of even grenadiers but there should be no rifles. Although you'd have to research really fast for that.

Regarding happiness cap. This can be dealt with A) Monarchy (unlimited happiness per unit per city); B) Slavery (whip it); C) Drama (luxury slider); D) Representation (early Pyramids); E) More conquests and more happiness resources. Personally E) is the best way to go usually.

15. GP farming gives raw gold when farming for merchants. If you done with SGOTM3, you can go and read CFR-W SGOTM3 thread, it is not an easy read but a clear example of this issue. Regarding super-specialized cities, I'd say not that clearly good always. Sometimes terrain dictates a more balanced approach and you've got to go for that. Always build more units. There is never enough, the more the better as long as you can afford it.

16. Not worth it. Chop it early as soon as discovering Math. You can build a workshop or cottage or farm there.

17.This one is for Whomp.
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Old 25-02-2007, 02:42   #14
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Beorn

Ok, this one is fustrating: what's with the "can't trade" a technology thing? They either will, won't or can't - but how is it that they cannot ??
Tech cannot be traded when you acquired knowledge of prerequisites on the same turn. Next turn tech will be possible to trade if AI will want to.

The question as to why AI won't trade techs (colored red in diplo screen) is more complex but there should be a strategy article that covers that somewhere on CFC. Usually, AI won't trade a tech that it has as monopoly. It won't trade if building wonder associated with this tech or if AI considers the tech too important to be traded. Sometimes, AI won't trade a tech because human player is too advanced or just because relationships are not good enough. There are numerical values to all these things in the code.
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Old 28-02-2007, 06:05   #15
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I'd like to thank everyone for my first victory, SS as Napoleon on Prince

Now onto warring

18 - Is it me or does collateral damage totally obtusely flabberghasterdly own ? And does that make the Cho-ko-nu a very, very, very powerful UU, or is it still too expensive vs maces and swords?

19 - To achieve conquest, does one have to capture and pace himself with city costs not to go bankrupt, or raze his way about, or is conquest a shunned VC on the pacifist playground that is CIV ?

20 - As I understand it, retreat chances are nerfed from their C3C counterparts ... unless you spend your promotions on it, effectively weakening your unit. So is the use for mounties really to max flanking, for raiders to max raid, for cats to max collateral and for the defensive spear and/or archer to max heal?
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Old 28-02-2007, 07:56   #16
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Your questions are getting harder and harder.

18. Collateral damage is very powerful. Chokonu is a very powerful unit if used in time and properly. But they should not be used to attack cities defended with archers/longbowmen. They can be used but it is usually not a good idea. They are great against melee stacks in the open though.

19. In case on aiming for Conquest it is better to raze everything. Domination is harder to acheive sometimes because you have to bear the maintenance costs. Actually, it is the easiest victory on lower levels (up to Monarch) and usually can be achieved before other conditions, sometimes on Prince or Monarch and epic speed even in the BC ages on standard map size if no Astronomy is needed. With Astronomy on Monarch and up to Immortal it can be done with a good start and a good leader prior to 1500AD if executed properly. There are numerous examples in GOTM/SGOTM spoilers.

20. Flanking/retreat promotions are greatly nerfed down. It might still be important though sometimes but usually is absolutely useless. Other promotions are more complex and depend on the situation. Healing promotions are better be taken by some weaker unit which is supposed to survive the combat in a stack of big guys (scout or explorer or even warrior/chariot). And you need only 1 Medic 3 promotion for a stack. Raiders against AI often times can be indeed promoted to city raiders but archery units and spearmen can have a variety of promotions. For spearmen, advancing in combat level might be good up to Formation and for archers City garrison or Guerilla are rather useful at times depending on actual situation. Of course there are multiple exceptions. Artillery units can be maxed on accuracy/collateral and sometimes trebuchets can be given Raider as well since their collateral is somewhat lower than that of cats and they are substantially more expensive.
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Old 21-03-2007, 00:32   #17
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21. I tried going for the BCLG patented GP economy strategy. I prioritize food, get a religion and luxuries, pull up specialists, everything is fine. However I find that I have a very hard time keeping up economically when I build up military. The actual income is very low unless you build cottages or have banker specialists. In cities with grassland hills or goldy ressources I feel like employing specialists is somewhat of a waste of good working class people that could be employed in the fields.

I guess the bottom line is: should the second city (or third if the second is bronze-bound) be built wherever a high amount of ressource/cottage raw commerce be found to support the rest of a GP-economy empire while it still waits for GE, GS and GM's to kick it up? And how can you play always war games with these restrictions anyways? I feel like before I have a size 10+ city supporting the empire for gold I am bound to run 0% research with half a dozen scientists specialists, crossing my fingers for the pyramids to help me with doubled research from scientists.
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Old 21-03-2007, 01:41   #18
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You are obviously doing something wrong. I'm not sure what the problem is but IMO it might be that you start GP-based economy too early and run it all the way through whereas it is not a good idea to base your whole game on it. It might be that you might need to:

1) build more cities (at least 6-8 as early as possible if the economy can handle that at 30-40% research).
2) If you cannot, build yourself more units and go conquer these cities from neighbors.

There is always use of some terrain unless it is all riverless plains without bonus resources. Grasslands can be farmed to work hills or build up great people or cottaged if there are no rivers or hills nearby. Plains can be workshopped or cottaged or farmed in a worst case scenario. Flood plains can be farmed to build up great people or to work nearby hills or they can be cottaged as well.

Great people farming usually is better in caste system with pacifism and national epic. You can then farm 3-4 great scientists in no time in the middle of the game to accelerate your way towards Liberalism or towards Astronomy depending on the map. Great people farming very early in the game is not too useful except may be first great scientist for Academy in the capital or on higher difficulty levels for lightbulbing philosophy to trade yourself even in techs with the AI. Otherwise, it greatly slows down growth. So, early in the game, slavery is usually preferred as you can whip improvements or settlers/workers or units.

Farming for GE makes sense only with philosophical trait and farming for GM makes sense only if you run universal suffrage (built or conquered Pyramids) or need massive instant upgrades. Farming for GP is usually not required. Farming for GA is needed only if going for cultural victory. Otherwise, GS are always better because they give better techs and more beakers towards these techs.
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Old 21-03-2007, 02:20   #19
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Yeah I started way too early. I also was stuck with the idea that science should be run around 80+%, not at lower percents to support more cities for an equivalent (early) and more potent (later) science total.

I see the obstruction with GA's and GP's, but GE and GM have great usefulness imho. Clearing a wonder build or freeing up your treasury for 100% research should be good enough to consider, no?
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Old 21-03-2007, 03:08   #20
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Generally (! but not always !) what matters is the total science output of your empire in beakers per turn and not where your science slider is. With a large empire and at war you can run it at 50% but still make way more bpt than with small empire running at 100%. Also, there is no corruption and with larger empire, you can make more units, have more resources (bigger and healthier cities) and thus do not need too many improvements to make that happen in all cities which saves you hammers towards more useful builds. For example, compare banks with grocers. If you have more health, you don't need grocers and can go directly for banks. But granaries are always needed. You would not also need markets or temples since you can get that happiness out of military police warriors. And so on. Building courthouses and Forbidden Palace or moving Palace to a more central location can greatly reduce maintenance. Or you can play Zulu and get cheap -20% maintenance almost instantly in all cities. Or you can research full throttle to State property and again get rid of distance maintenance completely.

Benefit of GM is usually (! not always !) an illusion since you can get more beakers with GS than running 100% science due to maney made with GM. For example, you run 70% science for most of the game and can run 100% science for a few turns (let's assume 10 turns). So you save 30% * 0.25 (assuming you have libraries everywhere and no markets at all) = 37.5% of your total budget. Let's assume also you are playing on monarch level standard size map and have 7-8 cities in early Renaissance. This makes your total income about 400g and you gain roughly 1500 beakers (gold frm GS mission) this way. Usually, you can get up to 2100 beaker towards Education (which is a reasonable tech to research at this time) with a GS and you get the tech earlier because the gain is instant and does not have to be distributed over 10 turns. This makes GS better in many cases (! but not always !).

Farming GE requires early Metal Casting and early forge and even then it is hard to keep the GE pool clear from any contamination with other GP points. For normal speed this requires running an engineer in a city with Great Wall (1 GE ppt) for about 25 turns for total 3 gpp. And you cannot run any other specialists there and cannot build other wonders. Pyramids are better but on higher difficulty are hard to get and require considerable sacrifice in development which might result in tech retardation and cornering by AI in a closed space. General (! not always !) these hammers are better off to be spent towards military and expansion and libraries. Of course, with an industrious leader and with stone and a few worthless forests nearby, Pyramids can be built early and are well rewarding wonder. But normally this kind of situation is extremely rare. Most of wonders apart from Oracle early on and may be Great Library are relatively worthless down to much later in the game usually (! not always !). Sometimes, it is worth rushing Oxford with GE in a scientce-oriented capital with very low hammers. But one can revolt to slavery and whip that Oxford as an option.

So, screwing expansion and growth for a GE or GM is not worth it generally.
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