European Constitution, yes or no? - Page 6

Matrix · 30-05-2005, 20:40

Well, in the Netherlands one vote was one of 9,501,152 in the last elections. In Europe it was one of 154,345,596. That's the difference. Your personal power is less, but it's still equally democratic.

By the way, although this is a completely different story, I can't blame Norway not to join the EU. You guys are bloody rich and much smarter than the previous Dutch governments have been: we now loose 5% of our national income due to rent of our national debt. That's 10.2 billion euro thrown away every year.

It is pure luck however that you have all that oil and gas that makes you rich, but it's the way you spend it that I have much respect for.

Pastorius · 30-05-2005, 20:51

Yes, luck, but also very good negotiations when they agreed on economical and territorial borders on waterland (did that make sense in English). If it hadnt been for those negotiations, Norway would not have secured the right to oil. Also, if we had not had the possibility to take up loans abroad, we could not have invested in capital to extract the oil, and we would be in a different state today.

However, I must say that I still disagree with you on the EU being equally democratic. You guys have the Euro - which is a result of the EMU. With the EMU, you gave away the ability to control your own monetary policy, and as a direct result, most of your control of fiscal policy. All of that is controlled from Frankfurt (the ECB). I like referring to the EMU when I talk about a less democratic EU than the more democratic alternative of not being in the EU.

IMO, the most democratic system is direct democracy.
Any form of representative democracy is less democratic - but there is a tradeoff involving efficiency that is very important.

I will however argue that there is a limit on this efficiency bonus of representative democracies. If a representative democracy is too big, it cannot be sufficiently efficient in all important areas. This is why the EU fails IMO, and why a national state is better. Actually, there are enough problems with the national state already, so why make it worse?

Also, I got to say, that since I am not Killer (who gets pleasure from science vs creationism), and since I often dislike the way discussion is done in that other forum, I find this particular discussion to be most pleasing. Since we are all rational adults and respect eachother here

Rik Meleet · 30-05-2005, 22:30

The representative democracy in the Netherlands is already too big if you consider that they do not represent the opinions of the citizens very well. 85% of the members of parliament are for the ratification of the EU-constitution proposal, while (at the moment) polls indicate that around 40% of the Dutch citizens will vote "Yes".

Of course these numbers can be deceiving by what happened in France and depends on the %-age of voters that will actually vote; but the gap between 85% and 40% is just too big to be a coincidence.

That is for 9,501,152 voters; imagine what the difference can be with 154,345,596 voters.

Matrix · 30-05-2005, 22:50

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

Of course these numbers can be deceiving by what happened in France and depends on the %-age of voters that will actually vote; but the gap between 85% and 40% is just too big to be a coincidence.

Indeed, a lot of people vote "no", because they disagree with the government in general. But who is to blame? If you disagree with the government, then why keep voting on these parties?!

Displeasement with "The Hague" in general is the biggest political joke if you ask me. We all vote for them. And they are doing the best they can, and do what they think is best for the Netherlands and the rest of the world. Sometimes they make mistakes, but then it's the question "Who knew better?" Usually no one. That's why people should quit nagging. Or go into politics themselves. But the LPF is the perfect example of what happens then: you smash with your face to the ground.

Sorry if this is too Dutch oriented, but that's just my reference.

Pastorius · 30-05-2005, 22:58

Matrix, anyone remotely interested in European politics would understand what you are talking about. And besides, we dont care about those who dont

Rik Meleet · 01-06-2005, 21:20

Exit-poll for the Netherlands:

Yes: 37%
No: 63%
62% of the people voted.

As Stapel called it on CFC-OT: "This is not a No; this is a "No Way!""

Matrix · 01-06-2005, 23:12

Question to the no-voters:
Now what?

romeothemonk · 01-06-2005, 23:27

You wait for a charismatic military power to Unite Europe into one cohesive force the old fashioned way.

Beam · 02-06-2005, 00:27

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Matrix

Question to the no-voters:
Now what?

Sorry for the late reply, was building a save refuge in the garden for the upcoming war.

A bunch of Dutch politicians just publically confessed they were wrong, they should have more ears for the regular citizen, things went wrong in the campaign etc. They took the ball, let them play it.

And we've heard that before remember?

Kingreno · 02-06-2005, 09:38

Great stuff to see Religious-, Rightwing- and Leftwing-Fanatics work together on this, it certainly makes me wonder where to go next. If the "yes"-parties play their cards right they'll let the "No"-camp come with their solutions to the constitution and let them blow themselves up.

View Poll Results: European Constitution, yes or no?
Yes	11	47.83%
No	8	34.78%
Abstain	2	8.70%
Don't know	2	8.70%
Don't care	0	0%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

30-05-2005, 20:40	#51
Matrix Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 4,828	Well, in the Netherlands one vote was one of 9,501,152 in the last elections. In Europe it was one of 154,345,596. That's the difference. Your personal power is less, but it's still equally democratic. By the way, although this is a completely different story, I can't blame Norway not to join the EU. You guys are bloody rich and much smarter than the previous Dutch governments have been: we now loose 5% of our national income due to rent of our national debt. That's 10.2 billion euro thrown away every year. It is pure luck however that you have all that oil and gas that makes you rich, but it's the way you spend it that I have much respect for. __________________

30-05-2005, 20:51	#52
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	Yes, luck, but also very good negotiations when they agreed on economical and territorial borders on waterland (did that make sense in English). If it hadnt been for those negotiations, Norway would not have secured the right to oil. Also, if we had not had the possibility to take up loans abroad, we could not have invested in capital to extract the oil, and we would be in a different state today. However, I must say that I still disagree with you on the EU being equally democratic. You guys have the Euro - which is a result of the EMU. With the EMU, you gave away the ability to control your own monetary policy, and as a direct result, most of your control of fiscal policy. All of that is controlled from Frankfurt (the ECB). I like referring to the EMU when I talk about a less democratic EU than the more democratic alternative of not being in the EU. IMO, the most democratic system is direct democracy. Any form of representative democracy is less democratic - but there is a tradeoff involving efficiency that is very important. I will however argue that there is a limit on this efficiency bonus of representative democracies. If a representative democracy is too big, it cannot be sufficiently efficient in all important areas. This is why the EU fails IMO, and why a national state is better. Actually, there are enough problems with the national state already, so why make it worse? Also, I got to say, that since I am not Killer (who gets pleasure from science vs creationism), and since I often dislike the way discussion is done in that other forum, I find this particular discussion to be most pleasing. Since we are all rational adults and respect eachother here __________________

30-05-2005, 22:30	#53
Rik Meleet Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands. Posts: 2,502	The representative democracy in the Netherlands is already too big if you consider that they do not represent the opinions of the citizens very well. 85% of the members of parliament are for the ratification of the EU-constitution proposal, while (at the moment) polls indicate that around 40% of the Dutch citizens will vote "Yes". Of course these numbers can be deceiving by what happened in France and depends on the %-age of voters that will actually vote; but the gap between 85% and 40% is just too big to be a coincidence. That is for 9,501,152 voters; imagine what the difference can be with 154,345,596 voters. __________________ Social life ? Sounds like fun !! Where can I download that ?

30-05-2005, 22:58	#55
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	Matrix, anyone remotely interested in European politics would understand what you are talking about. And besides, we dont care about those who dont __________________

01-06-2005, 21:20	#56
Rik Meleet Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands. Posts: 2,502	Exit-poll for the Netherlands: Yes: 37% No: 63% 62% of the people voted. As Stapel called it on CFC-OT: "This is not a No; this is a "No Way!"" __________________ Social life ? Sounds like fun !! Where can I download that ?

01-06-2005, 23:12	#57
Matrix Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 4,828	Question to the no-voters: Now what? __________________

01-06-2005, 23:27	#58
romeothemonk King Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Yankton, SD. Posts: 1,310	You wait for a charismatic military power to Unite Europe into one cohesive force the old fashioned way. __________________ I am not crazy cause I take the right pills..................................... Everyday

02-06-2005, 09:38	#60
Kingreno Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,270	Great stuff to see Religious-, Rightwing- and Leftwing-Fanatics work together on this, it certainly makes me wonder where to go next. If the "yes"-parties play their cards right they'll let the "No"-camp come with their solutions to the constitution and let them blow themselves up. __________________ Go ahead punk. Make my day.