2vs2vs2vs2 open thread

[Stapel]

I guess we should ban mapstat.

[Lt. Killer M]

I am totally fine with teh rules suggested by akots, and also think be should feinately ban mapstat!

btw akots: sorry for dropping out of our chat. my connection is fucked i can't use trillian or MSM atm at all

[anarres]

Isn't there a version of MAtStat without the spoiler info? That sucks if not!

[Kingreno]

quote:Originally posted by akots

OK, then how about this:

1) no Military Alliances officially.
2) no MPPs officially.
3) no discussion of military operations in detail between ppls. (Certainly optional and difficult to control).
4) no trading cities neither between human ppls nor between 2 civs governed by the same ppl.
5) Allowed: Trading of techs, contacts (after Printing Press), luxuries, maps (after Navigation), resources, workers, and gold.

Question: Do we allow use of MapStat 2.8.0 or latest version?

1 to 5: Agreed

MapStat: I do not use it, or have it. The only tool I use are my Brain and the f1 to f11 screens. If that happens to be insufficient to beat an opponent so be it. No Mapstat!

[anarres]

KR - would you also say that if it gave no spoiler info?

[Kingreno]

anarres: There is IMVHO no easy way to say what is allowed and what is not. There are tools for almost everything you want in Civ3. From techcalc to mapstat and I bet someone is working on a an f3-tool (to tell how much units an opponent has). I use none of these and do not intend to use them either.
However, to try to answer the Question; I play only PBEM with people I trust, and if they use a tool that tells them things they should not know that is just that. I cannot worry too much about it.

[Kemal]

Though I'm not playing in this game, I'd like to stop by and post my views on this topic as well, because of course it has an effect on all pbems played, not just this one here.
I think that any external program that gives information on the status of your opponents with regard to tech/gold/luxes/resources, or any other information that in SP would be accessible via the diplo screen, should be banned in multihuman PBEMs.
Since you can't see what your opponent has to offer without external help, it should therefore remain unknown. In 1v1 games, you can of course deduct the techs from the costs to research it yourself, but when multiple humans participate this no longer works because it is impossible to know who has what tech anymore, only how many in total have it.

Of course, any program giving information that can't be deducted from the game itself in any "normal" game either should imho be banned as well, for example total land area when not possessing the full map, or total commercial output in case the demographics numbers don't prove to be sufficient for conclusions on that.

[anarres]

This isn't just for fun for me either! MapStat can be very useful (as I found out in the Defiant SID SG), and although the current version is NOT usable with PBEM without spoiler info, I am working hard to get a spoiler-free version that people can use.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...16#post2376916

As you can see, Dianthus is a nice guy, and he is willing to bend over backwards to accomodate the PBEM community, of which CDZ is a very large part.

When he has removed this spoiler info (gold, cities, techs), then the version will give nothing that the game doesn't say. I can't see a reason that anyone could object to somone else using this tool.

KR - I like your purist intentions, but in some situations MapStat can save you (literally) hours of time each turn. If there is no spoiler then why not? BTW, I am really confused as to why you would not use tech calc - all it's doing is some sums that before I used to do by hand.

[Stapel]

Anybody here doing math for flip calc? I don't think so! As long as no extra info is given away, all is fine.

[Kemal]

Btw, on the topic of what can and what can't you use, I think certain graphic mods should be banned as well unless agreed upon before the game. Perhaps I'm sounding a bit too much like a certain ex-gotm moderator for some people here (I apoligize in advance if that's the case ), but it makes for an entire different game if you graphic mod allows you to see the lux/cow/wheat through the fog compared to when you can't, and especially with games on identical starts the difference is just too large to be withing a margin of fairness, imo.