America and England: true love? - Page 2

Lt. Killer M · 02-11-2003, 18:42

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Grille

Quote:

quote:By

:

he found it more likely (compared to above example=Pakistan/India) that the next ww would be between the U.S./G.B. and Europa/Russia!

Made me think, too.
But then again, along w/ Cuba etc, Germany is in the axis of weasel and France is even worse. A government that doesn't officially support US foreign policy seems to be regarded as potential foe... there you have Europe as foe image. Just look at Killer's sig which says basically "Every country has to decide: Either be on our side or..."
Propaganda is a powerful tool to polarise the folks.
Btw, recent polls show decreasing support for the 'anti-terrorism' war in Iraq, strange - an at least 5 years old video showing cruel police methods is *somehow* making its way to the editorial department of that Faux organ.

sad is it is, most Americans even do not realize the parallels and differences between the two people my sig quotes....

Ehecatl Atzin · 06-11-2003, 09:09

Gothmog has a point on the whole religious thing, the States have a fundamentalist cristian in the presidential seat...
@Shabbaman--- hmmm.. millions of people dead because of the 2 world wars.. what about the millions that die because they can't compete with big business and have to sell their lands at dirt cheap prices just to scrap by.. or entire families that are chained to the maquiladora system and can't leave it even if they wanted to. There are other forms, uglier forms, of violence and death, not just a bullet... compared to that, a bullet seems almost painless. What about the korean farmer that took his life in Cancun in a protest against the WTF and the world bank? was his sudden death any less harsh that the long, agonizing struggle for survival in his homeland? War isn't just bullets, cannons and nukes... violence is violence, and povery is it's worst example, specially if it's caused by the bottom line.

EDIT-- but if body count is that important, let us count all those that died when the States invaded or directly supported terrorist regimes that killed it's own people: Chile 3,000+ under Pinochet, Argentina: 60,000+ when the military coup took power in 76 I believe, East Timor, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea... I'm sure that number can add up and match those that died in the first 2 wars.

Lt. Killer M · 06-11-2003, 09:14

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

violence is violence, and povery is it's worst example, specially if it's caused by the bottom line.

A bullet is intended to kill a specific person that you can see. Move from there to bombs (can't see hem normally), ordering the dropping of bombs, ordering 'make war', supporting that war, cutting down the rainforest, buying eating sticks made from these trees, buying sports equipment made in Third World countires, trying to be affluent in the First World...... basically, it is just a gradual thing

- and at the end there usually is no malintent (or even consciousness of it) at all.

Ehecatl Atzin · 06-11-2003, 09:22

Ignorance (can a nike exec, really ignore where his/her product gets made???) is no excuse for it, nor does it remove the stain of guilt.

Lt. Killer M · 06-11-2003, 09:45

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

Ignorance (can a nike exec, really ignore where his/her product gets made???) is no excuse for it, nor does it remove the stain of guilt.

at THAT level, there is no ignorance.

But, can a consumer who gets lied to be companies, press, politicians etc. really be called informed when all the products he gets to choose from are more or less 'bloody'? Where would he get the information on 'clean' products? And would he be able to afford them? There is 'fair trade' coffee on the market here - but even that is far from perfect. And I know of very few other products that do not involve exploitation of Third WOlrd countries in one way or another.

anarres · 06-11-2003, 10:09

Hmm, how about the following as a start for any consumer in the first world:

1) Don't buy Nike or other 'big brand' clothing.

2) Buy fair-trade coffee (or rather, don't by non-fair trade)

3) Buy fuit and veg from local markets, not supermarkets OR

Better than (3) - buy fruit and veg from a health food shop that gets it produced locally.

If you really want to go all out don't support the meat industry - it is a big offender when it comes to abusing the worlds resources.

I agree that it is hard - but by saying consumers are not to blame you are making the system worse. We have to blame everyone in the system (in which I include myself) if we are to ever make a difference.

Ehecatl Atzin · 06-11-2003, 10:43

I agree with Anarres, there is plenty of info out there for anyone interested in what company does what. I get along just fine not wearing nikes and buying locally. Frankly, I feel quite proud that most of my clothes are made right here by people who I buy from and know they are the ones getting the money.. not some company that doesn't give shit 'bout me but what's it's brand on my butt. I personally grow some of my veggies and fruits... info is out there for anyone interested, that's what the internet is for; retaking a now-slogan: where do u wanna go today?

you can find porn and video game sites here, but you can also find info on Che Guevara, the zapatista movement, clean and dirty industries, consumers have a lot of power when they decide to use it. Sometimes they just don't know it, they lack social class consciousness.

Lt. Killer M · 06-11-2003, 10:45

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by anarres

I agree that it is hard - but by saying consumers are not to blame you are making the system worse. We have to blame everyone in the system (in which I include myself) if we are to ever make a difference.

your suggestions only cover about a 10% reduction or so - locally produced fruit is only marginally better as the people alos use cars, wear nikes which essentially you pay for.... etc.....

I am not saying blame is wrong, but we should put the vast majority of the blame where it belongs - our standard of living and the people who order the actual abuse. Sure consumers are to blame, but I have to admit that I do not think consumers, especially those in countries like the US where a few big companies control all the supermarkets, can really change things.

Lt. Killer M · 06-11-2003, 10:47

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

I agree with Anarres, there is plenty of info out there for anyone interested in what company does what. I get along just fine not wearing nikes and buying locally. Frankly, I feel quite proud that most of my clothes are made right here by people who I buy from and know they are the ones getting the money.. not some company that doesn't give shit 'bout me but what's it's brand on my butt. I personally grow some of my veggies and fruits... info is out there for anyone interested, that's what the internet is for; retaking a now-slogan: where do u wanna go today?

you can find porn and video game sites here, but you can also find info on Che Guevara, the zapatista movement, clean and dirty industries, consumers have a lot of power when they decide to use it. Sometimes they just don't know it, they lack social class consciousness.

well, good! But that only lowers your level of guilt, it doesn't cut it down to zero

anarres · 06-11-2003, 10:50

Indeed Killer. But are you saying that because we are not perfect we shouldn't do anything? That is a bit defeatist....

06-11-2003, 09:09	#12
Ehecatl Atzin Part-timer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Moon\'s Belly button. Posts: 280	Gothmog has a point on the whole religious thing, the States have a fundamentalist cristian in the presidential seat... @Shabbaman--- hmmm.. millions of people dead because of the 2 world wars.. what about the millions that die because they can't compete with big business and have to sell their lands at dirt cheap prices just to scrap by.. or entire families that are chained to the maquiladora system and can't leave it even if they wanted to. There are other forms, uglier forms, of violence and death, not just a bullet... compared to that, a bullet seems almost painless. What about the korean farmer that took his life in Cancun in a protest against the WTF and the world bank? was his sudden death any less harsh that the long, agonizing struggle for survival in his homeland? War isn't just bullets, cannons and nukes... violence is violence, and povery is it's worst example, specially if it's caused by the bottom line. EDIT-- but if body count is that important, let us count all those that died when the States invaded or directly supported terrorist regimes that killed it's own people: Chile 3,000+ under Pinochet, Argentina: 60,000+ when the military coup took power in 76 I believe, East Timor, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea... I'm sure that number can add up and match those that died in the first 2 wars. __________________ ~If getting gas .50 cents cheaper means the systematical extermination of an entire culture, I\'ll walk. ~The resistance will be as transnational as capital. ~The Revolution is also made with bricks-- Dr.Atl

06-11-2003, 09:22	#14
Ehecatl Atzin Part-timer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Moon\'s Belly button. Posts: 280	Ignorance (can a nike exec, really ignore where his/her product gets made???) is no excuse for it, nor does it remove the stain of guilt. __________________ ~If getting gas .50 cents cheaper means the systematical extermination of an entire culture, I\'ll walk. ~The resistance will be as transnational as capital. ~The Revolution is also made with bricks-- Dr.Atl

06-11-2003, 10:09	#16
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Hmm, how about the following as a start for any consumer in the first world: 1) Don't buy Nike or other 'big brand' clothing. 2) Buy fair-trade coffee (or rather, don't by non-fair trade) 3) Buy fuit and veg from local markets, not supermarkets OR Better than (3) - buy fruit and veg from a health food shop that gets it produced locally. If you really want to go all out don't support the meat industry - it is a big offender when it comes to abusing the worlds resources. I agree that it is hard - but by saying consumers are not to blame you are making the system worse. We have to blame everyone in the system (in which I include myself) if we are to ever make a difference. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

06-11-2003, 10:43	#17
Ehecatl Atzin Part-timer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Moon\'s Belly button. Posts: 280	I agree with Anarres, there is plenty of info out there for anyone interested in what company does what. I get along just fine not wearing nikes and buying locally. Frankly, I feel quite proud that most of my clothes are made right here by people who I buy from and know they are the ones getting the money.. not some company that doesn't give shit 'bout me but what's it's brand on my butt. I personally grow some of my veggies and fruits... info is out there for anyone interested, that's what the internet is for; retaking a now-slogan: where do u wanna go today? you can find porn and video game sites here, but you can also find info on Che Guevara, the zapatista movement, clean and dirty industries, consumers have a lot of power when they decide to use it. Sometimes they just don't know it, they lack social class consciousness. __________________ ~If getting gas .50 cents cheaper means the systematical extermination of an entire culture, I\'ll walk. ~The resistance will be as transnational as capital. ~The Revolution is also made with bricks-- Dr.Atl

06-11-2003, 10:50	#20
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Indeed Killer. But are you saying that because we are not perfect we shouldn't do anything? That is a bit defeatist.... __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>