Gothmog vs. Anarres **Spoiler** - Page 2

Skyfish · 05-08-2003, 07:31

I am surprised not to see the famous "3-tile" grid

!
According to anarres and Killer, experienced PBEM players, a tight/close build is key to success in a PBEM.
Especially on Pangea with Riders and Immortals where the chance of this game going Industrial is quasi nihil.

ERIKK · 05-08-2003, 07:36

It all depends on how close the two meet and make a decisive move. Also you must nog forget that
taking over the AI's sometimes is not easy at all. Also we dont know the MA and MPP agreements
the have (if any). If their will be a MA pingpong then their expanding will be slowed down.

Skyfish · 05-08-2003, 11:40

Quote:

quote:It all depends on how close the two meet

I dont agree with that because there is no way you will ever meet the other human before you have to start building your first ring.

I know Erikk you are a not a proponent of close builds but I dont understand any of your arguments here...

Aggie · 05-08-2003, 11:53

@Sky: I'm not saying that I agree with ERIKK on every point, but one thing is for sure: if you are talking about anarres and Killer as experienced PBEM-ers, what would ERIKK be?

ERIKK lost a couple of games vs anarres, but those had nothing to do with anarres having the upperhand because of tight build. ERIKK won quite a few games from good players with his type of start.

But I must admit: that was before RCP became known to the whole world.

ERIKK · 05-08-2003, 12:06

Hehe, I am sorry but I meant if you do or do not reach Industrial Age (hospitals). In most
of my PBEM games I build hospitals => those cities grew (or workers were added) to 16, 17
etc... I guess you need a bit more lands then the RCP amount to keep such cities.

Reaching the IA:
- if opponents are far away or on continents contact will be late
- if there is early MA pingpong the expanding phase is very much hold back
- if you ar unable to conquer your big AI neighbour...

I guess you should mix RCP with larger spacing. If there will be a late game you will
be able have some bigger cities too. Look at the spacing I did in the ERIKK vs. Jack
game: it is a mix of RCP and larger spacing.

Gothmog · 05-08-2003, 15:57

Don't worry Sky, my build in our game is indeed tighter

In this game I wanted to found Pasargadae where I did so it would have both a wheat and game in its first 9 (and not be ontop of a bonus grass at distance 4). So that's at 4.5 distance, which does allow for a three square in the NSEW directions. The three square grid diagonal directions put me on top of the wheat and on that lake to the SW in my initial exploration. As it turns out I should have founded my city three to the east first, but I did Susa to try and hook my luxuries earlier, also because of barbarian locations. If i had founded a city 3 squares east (distance 4.5), and one somewhere to the North, then Persepolis would only have 9 squares to work anyway. I hope to have a second ring some day at distance 7-8, so this is a close build but not really close, no way will more than a couple cities in my first ring be able to use more than 12 squares. I'll have to see if I regret it later.

My plan atm is to take Germany out with my Immortals. Then build my defences for the inevitable Rider attack.

We have no agreements about MA's or MPP's. That's why I am so worried about getting out to do some exploring. I just can't get a break vs. the barbs.

Skyfish · 05-08-2003, 16:36

Aggie it's clear I am not saying Erikk is not an experinced player ! I did not cite his name because he is not a supporter of a tight build.
I find Erikk's arguments quite good and I would like to read anarres' (since Killer is away) as to why he believes a tight build is needed in PBEM. The RCP issue is something that came *after* the tight build debate and somewhat moves its focus away from the heart of the matter.

Gothmog · 11-08-2003, 18:09

After building that worker Persepolis cranked out a couple warriors (which you can see in the last screen shot I desperately need) before another settler. I sent that spear about to hit Arbela west to explore some, meanwhile the vet north of Pasargadae was sent to Arbela. I was starting to really worry about not having any more contacts and decided that I could take a few more barbarian raids. I wasn’t having luck holding them off anyway, as exemplified by my losing the fortified spear to a barb horse previously in Arbela.
Five turns later I make contact, but not with someone who wants to trade with me:

35.49 KB

Yup, my first contact since Germany is with the man himself, my mortal enemy

anarres of China. This is bad as he is going to be able to sell contact with me (though I know he will hold off as long as possible), and he will meet Germany before too long as and sell their contact as well. I am worried that he will buy in Germany against me, which would be bad given my current lack of military. This same lack makes it impossible for me to even run interference between him and Germany. Shit

.

I decide to keep my spear moving east (I assume that’s where he anarres came from) and I get a big big break.

22.51 KB

Yup, I meet the Aztec

. I am so excited by this that I hop around the room pumping my fist; my Son Jacob (three years old) joins in my jubilant dance

. I take a break to dwell on my options and don’t get back to the game until the next day. While sleeping my options jell. I have a monopoly on contact with the Germans – my prime asset. The Germans have a lot of cash. I already know China and so the Aztec don’t have a monopoly on the techs they share.
Thus my strategy is to buy tech from the Aztec @3rd, then sell to the Germans @ monopoly. After getting the German treasury I want to trade contact with them to everyone for a few contacts. India and France especially as they will be cheap (from the power graph ranking) and as commercial civs they are the best to buy from. Then I really want writing, the rest of the contacts, and a map. Here’s how it went down:

Horseback Riding from the Aztecs for my WM + 97 gold; sell HB to Germany for 212 gold.

Alphabet from the Aztecs for 130 gold; sell to Germany for 87 gold (their remaining treasury).

Contact w/Germany to the Aztecs for contact with the Indians + 47 gold. India has writing but lacks Math that the Aztecs have. They all (Germany included) have myst.

Contact w/Germany + 11 gold to the Indians for contact with France.

Contact w/Germany + WM + 64 gets math from France.

Math + 45 gets writing from India.

The Aztecs and French both have Philosophy and Map Making but India doesn’t have either.

OK, I could afford MM but it would break the bank. I have to stop here and take care of my kids for a while. Jacob wants to play on my computer and my other son Roman (9 months), needs attention.

In a chat w/anarres I try to get a temporary ban on MA’s here, telling him that I am considering buying the Aztec in against him (I think I could afford it but don’t know for sure). He doesn’t bite.

I decide that my best move is to buy all the contacts if I can and sell contact w/Germany to everyone. This will deny anarres the opportunity to profit from contacting me or Germany first.

89 gold gets me contact w/the Zulu from India.

Contact w/Germany + WM gets me contact w/Russia + 13 from the Zulu.

Shit, Russia lacks MM and has nothing to give for contact with Germany. I wish I had gotten contact with her first… Ah, I can sell Germany contact with Russia and still profit from that.

Contact with China and Russia go to Germany for Mysticism.

No way I can afford more than a couple TM’s so I pass for now.

All in all that went well. I got HB, Alph, Math, Writing, Myst and contact with everyone for contact with Germany + 77 gold!

A few turns later I have targeted a distance of 7.5 for my second ring, based on incomplete map data. I get pushed around a bit by the barbs before getting to settle my first 7.5 city in the west - Tarsus. Not where the settler was originally headed. I decide to get a barracks in Persopolis before my next settler from there. Pasargadae also completes a settler, which I send east to a 7.5 spot, it arrives 2 turns after Tarsus was founded and becomes - Gordium.

After completing that settler I have improved the tiles around Pasargadae enough to turn it into a 2 turn worker factory. Now it’s one every two turns for as long as I like. This is why I targeted that location for my second city (at distance 4.5) in the first place and my plan has finally reached fruition

.

77.59 KB

Soon after this I realize there is a brokerage on the table. I consider waiting as none of the techs are absolutely needed right away, but I might be able to get a map out of this and I don’t know if anarres will eliminate this brokerage possibility.

The situation:
Germany – 116 + Philosophy
India – 14 + Philosophy
Zulu – 0 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism
Russia – 9 + Philosophy + Polytheism + Construction
France – 68 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism
Aztec – 344 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism

I can’t get Construction@ miser, but as I said I can’t let this opportunity slip to anarres, in a SP game I would have waited.

I get MM from France for WM + 6 gpt + 179 gold.

MM + 1 gpt + 17 gold gets me Polytheism from Russia.

MM + Poly to Germany for WM + Philosophy + 96 gold.

Poly to India for WM + 14 gold.

Where is China

WM to Russia for WM + 26 gold.

Ah, there’s China

WM + 47 to the Zulu for WM, to France for WM + 8, to the Aztec for WM + 21, TM to Germany for 14 gold, India can’t afford my map nor can Russia, to Zulu for 16, finally I get 3 more from France.

So I spent 45 + 7 gpt for MM, Poly, Philosophy, and an up to date WM.

I am now up those three techs on anarres.

I spy a nice bottleneck between the area I share with Germany and the rest of the world.

Here’s the current situation.

66.3 KB

134.46 KB

WildFire · 11-08-2003, 18:19

Nice!

Gothmog · 11-08-2003, 19:14

Thanks WildFire.

Does anyone know what the cost of upgrading a warrior to Immortal is?

05-08-2003, 07:31	#11
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	I am surprised not to see the famous "3-tile" grid ! According to anarres and Killer, experienced PBEM players, a tight/close build is key to success in a PBEM. Especially on Pangea with Riders and Immortals where the chance of this game going Industrial is quasi nihil. __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

05-08-2003, 16:36	#17
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Aggie it's clear I am not saying Erikk is not an experinced player ! I did not cite his name because he is not a supporter of a tight build. I find Erikk's arguments quite good and I would like to read anarres' (since Killer is away) as to why he believes a tight build is needed in PBEM. The RCP issue is something that came after the tight build debate and somewhat moves its focus away from the heart of the matter. __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

05-08-2003, 07:36	#12
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	It all depends on how close the two meet and make a decisive move. Also you must nog forget that taking over the AI's sometimes is not easy at all. Also we dont know the MA and MPP agreements the have (if any). If their will be a MA pingpong then their expanding will be slowed down.

05-08-2003, 11:53	#14
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	@Sky: I'm not saying that I agree with ERIKK on every point, but one thing is for sure: if you are talking about anarres and Killer as experienced PBEM-ers, what would ERIKK be? ERIKK lost a couple of games vs anarres, but those had nothing to do with anarres having the upperhand because of tight build. ERIKK won quite a few games from good players with his type of start. But I must admit: that was before RCP became known to the whole world.

05-08-2003, 12:06	#15
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	Hehe, I am sorry but I meant if you do or do not reach Industrial Age (hospitals). In most of my PBEM games I build hospitals => those cities grew (or workers were added) to 16, 17 etc... I guess you need a bit more lands then the RCP amount to keep such cities. Reaching the IA: - if opponents are far away or on continents contact will be late - if there is early MA pingpong the expanding phase is very much hold back - if you ar unable to conquer your big AI neighbour... I guess you should mix RCP with larger spacing. If there will be a late game you will be able have some bigger cities too. Look at the spacing I did in the ERIKK vs. Jack game: it is a mix of RCP and larger spacing.

05-08-2003, 15:57	#16
Gothmog Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Angband. Posts: 334	Don't worry Sky, my build in our game is indeed tighter In this game I wanted to found Pasargadae where I did so it would have both a wheat and game in its first 9 (and not be ontop of a bonus grass at distance 4). So that's at 4.5 distance, which does allow for a three square in the NSEW directions. The three square grid diagonal directions put me on top of the wheat and on that lake to the SW in my initial exploration. As it turns out I should have founded my city three to the east first, but I did Susa to try and hook my luxuries earlier, also because of barbarian locations. If i had founded a city 3 squares east (distance 4.5), and one somewhere to the North, then Persepolis would only have 9 squares to work anyway. I hope to have a second ring some day at distance 7-8, so this is a close build but not really close, no way will more than a couple cities in my first ring be able to use more than 12 squares. I'll have to see if I regret it later. My plan atm is to take Germany out with my Immortals. Then build my defences for the inevitable Rider attack. We have no agreements about MA's or MPP's. That's why I am so worried about getting out to do some exploring. I just can't get a break vs. the barbs.

11-08-2003, 18:09	#18
Gothmog Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Angband. Posts: 334	After building that worker Persepolis cranked out a couple warriors (which you can see in the last screen shot I desperately need) before another settler. I sent that spear about to hit Arbela west to explore some, meanwhile the vet north of Pasargadae was sent to Arbela. I was starting to really worry about not having any more contacts and decided that I could take a few more barbarian raids. I wasn’t having luck holding them off anyway, as exemplified by my losing the fortified spear to a barb horse previously in Arbela. Five turns later I make contact, but not with someone who wants to trade with me: 35.49 KB Yup, my first contact since Germany is with the man himself, my mortal enemy anarres of China. This is bad as he is going to be able to sell contact with me (though I know he will hold off as long as possible), and he will meet Germany before too long as and sell their contact as well. I am worried that he will buy in Germany against me, which would be bad given my current lack of military. This same lack makes it impossible for me to even run interference between him and Germany. Shit . I decide to keep my spear moving east (I assume that’s where he anarres came from) and I get a big big break. 22.51 KB Yup, I meet the Aztec . I am so excited by this that I hop around the room pumping my fist; my Son Jacob (three years old) joins in my jubilant dance . I take a break to dwell on my options and don’t get back to the game until the next day. While sleeping my options jell. I have a monopoly on contact with the Germans – my prime asset. The Germans have a lot of cash. I already know China and so the Aztec don’t have a monopoly on the techs they share. Thus my strategy is to buy tech from the Aztec @3rd, then sell to the Germans @ monopoly. After getting the German treasury I want to trade contact with them to everyone for a few contacts. India and France especially as they will be cheap (from the power graph ranking) and as commercial civs they are the best to buy from. Then I really want writing, the rest of the contacts, and a map. Here’s how it went down: Horseback Riding from the Aztecs for my WM + 97 gold; sell HB to Germany for 212 gold. Alphabet from the Aztecs for 130 gold; sell to Germany for 87 gold (their remaining treasury). Contact w/Germany to the Aztecs for contact with the Indians + 47 gold. India has writing but lacks Math that the Aztecs have. They all (Germany included) have myst. Contact w/Germany + 11 gold to the Indians for contact with France. Contact w/Germany + WM + 64 gets math from France. Math + 45 gets writing from India. The Aztecs and French both have Philosophy and Map Making but India doesn’t have either. OK, I could afford MM but it would break the bank. I have to stop here and take care of my kids for a while. Jacob wants to play on my computer and my other son Roman (9 months), needs attention. In a chat w/anarres I try to get a temporary ban on MA’s here, telling him that I am considering buying the Aztec in against him (I think I could afford it but don’t know for sure). He doesn’t bite. I decide that my best move is to buy all the contacts if I can and sell contact w/Germany to everyone. This will deny anarres the opportunity to profit from contacting me or Germany first. 89 gold gets me contact w/the Zulu from India. Contact w/Germany + WM gets me contact w/Russia + 13 from the Zulu. Shit, Russia lacks MM and has nothing to give for contact with Germany. I wish I had gotten contact with her first… Ah, I can sell Germany contact with Russia and still profit from that. Contact with China and Russia go to Germany for Mysticism. No way I can afford more than a couple TM’s so I pass for now. All in all that went well. I got HB, Alph, Math, Writing, Myst and contact with everyone for contact with Germany + 77 gold! A few turns later I have targeted a distance of 7.5 for my second ring, based on incomplete map data. I get pushed around a bit by the barbs before getting to settle my first 7.5 city in the west - Tarsus. Not where the settler was originally headed. I decide to get a barracks in Persopolis before my next settler from there. Pasargadae also completes a settler, which I send east to a 7.5 spot, it arrives 2 turns after Tarsus was founded and becomes - Gordium. After completing that settler I have improved the tiles around Pasargadae enough to turn it into a 2 turn worker factory. Now it’s one every two turns for as long as I like. This is why I targeted that location for my second city (at distance 4.5) in the first place and my plan has finally reached fruition . 77.59 KB Soon after this I realize there is a brokerage on the table. I consider waiting as none of the techs are absolutely needed right away, but I might be able to get a map out of this and I don’t know if anarres will eliminate this brokerage possibility. The situation: Germany – 116 + Philosophy India – 14 + Philosophy Zulu – 0 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism Russia – 9 + Philosophy + Polytheism + Construction France – 68 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism Aztec – 344 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism I can’t get Construction@ miser, but as I said I can’t let this opportunity slip to anarres, in a SP game I would have waited. I get MM from France for WM + 6 gpt + 179 gold. MM + 1 gpt + 17 gold gets me Polytheism from Russia. MM + Poly to Germany for WM + Philosophy + 96 gold. Poly to India for WM + 14 gold. Where is China WM to Russia for WM + 26 gold. Ah, there’s China WM + 47 to the Zulu for WM, to France for WM + 8, to the Aztec for WM + 21, TM to Germany for 14 gold, India can’t afford my map nor can Russia, to Zulu for 16, finally I get 3 more from France. So I spent 45 + 7 gpt for MM, Poly, Philosophy, and an up to date WM. I am now up those three techs on anarres. I spy a nice bottleneck between the area I share with Germany and the rest of the world. Here’s the current situation. 66.3 KB 134.46 KB

11-08-2003, 18:19	#19
WildFire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA. Posts: 704	Nice!

11-08-2003, 19:14	#20
Gothmog Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Angband. Posts: 334	Thanks WildFire. Does anyone know what the cost of upgrading a warrior to Immortal is?