Kemal versus Skyfish ---OPEN THREAD----- - Page 2

Skyfish · 12-11-2003, 15:43

Hey I need him to make blunders in order to have a fighting chance so let him
play his own moves ok ?

We're all a bunch of asswipes until somebody can beat him yeah

so we better shut up I guess

anarres · 12-11-2003, 18:28

Don't worry - I'll give both of you misleading advice!

Eldakkar · 12-11-2003, 18:39

@Skyfish, Killer and Anarres.

Kemal is not whining. Nobody who plays the early game right should be happy with the starts as posted above.

Foremost is the location of the capital. Ask yourself, what determines corruption in your cities? That would be the distance to your capital. Kemal starts near the water. This means that he cannot build more than 3/4 cities close to his capital. You can already see that Skyfish, who did not start next to water can build cities on all sides of his capital. This means a lot in terms of early production!

Secondly, Skyfish has a lot more squares adjacent to a river than Kemal. For you who do not understand the importance of rivers. Every adjacent river square increases your raw commerce by 1. A size 7 city next to a river can be easily kept happy under republic with 1 lux tax. Rivers are very powerful. Period.

Skyfish has a bonus grass next to his starting loc. So yes he should found his city. Kemal has not. Maybe he found one nearby. It is logical to move the settler. I think it is incredible that you folks do not see the importance of using the bonus resource immediately. Don't you read the spoiler of real experts on civfanatics? Read some of Qitai, DavemcW, SirPleb or Bamspeedy's gotm spoilers and learn how much you can gain by playing your early game right.

On the comment of berserkers. You are playing a large map. By the time you get to berserkers you should have at least 20 cities. Surely one of your next 19 can be coastal?

The great lighthouse comment is ridiculous. They are playing deity remember? You cannot hope to get such a wonder on deity. And even if you did, you used 300 shields that could have been put to much better use, like improving your empire.

This is purely based on the pics of these starting locations. Maybe there are other advantages which we do know of yet. But from what we can see, Skyfish's start is much better.

Oh and to be sure. I say this on my own account. I do not like it if silly things are presented as good ideas.

Lt. Killer M · 12-11-2003, 18:43

Eldakkar: asumption on your part: who tells you kemal does not have a long tongue of water stretching to his capital enabeling him to beuild several caostal cities with low corruption? There is nothing in the posted pics that tells you what the surroundings look like.

Rivers: it depends a LOT on the first ring. wait for more info!

Lighthouse is NOT ridiculous - but rather something that one can consider seriously - if you have a close neighbout, well, AIs do not go fro the Lighthouse usually, maybe some leader fishing is possible? We do not know yet what the map holds!

Lt. Killer M · 12-11-2003, 18:46

oh, and remind me never to play against you - whenever I would have the slightest of the slight advantages I guess you would come whining..... I fully trust anarres (have you ever read one of his reports? if so you KNOW he knows about MMing and early game......

) to make the starts a lot more even than the posted pics show.

anarres · 12-11-2003, 19:21

Eldakkar - I can promise the starts are quite well balanced. I spent over 3 hours on this map so I certainly hope they are! I'm not going to say here what is or isn't out of sight in Kemal's and Sky's maps, but I can assure you they are not grossly imbalanced.

One thing I would like to say about coast starts: You can't be surrounded by AI, and on Deity that can actually be an advantage. Also, with the way the FP rank bug works you actually suffer significantly less corruption overall in your empire if your palace has less cities close to it.

If you wish to count shields and food for the initial start areas you can get the bix from this thread and check it out yourself.

People are quite aware here of balance issues, we have been making maps for each other for some time and you get better with each map. Things like going though every single resource to make sure each continent as one for example (to enable both to go for space race without having to invade and hold the other continent - otherwise the game is pre-determined).

Edit: A final note about civs - they were requested, so Kemal is being a bit cheeky complaining about being Viking.

Eldakkar · 12-11-2003, 19:56

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M

oh, and remind me never to play against you - whenever I would have the slightest of the slight advantages I guess you would come whining..... I fully trust anarres (have you ever read one of his reports? if so you KNOW he knows about MMing and early game......

) to make the starts a lot more even than the posted pics show.

There is no whining. I was merely stating facts. The post says specifically that all I said was based on the two pics. Read it again if you will.

We do not know all other balancing issues. And yes I trust Anarres to have made the map balanced. The point is that 3 people, including you, accuse someone of whining while there are good reasons to say one starting location is better than the other. Skyfish plays the map, Anarres created it so they can comment, i'm fine with that. You do NOT know anything more than i do and still you are very quick to pass judgment onto people. I don't know how you see things, but in my book whining is not a very nice thing to say based on no evidence at all.

And i'm fine with the prospective never having to play you. An opponent who condemns another player so easily to being a whiner is not my favorite type of opponent.

@ anarres

I trust you balanced the map. I know you are a good player and know more of the ins and outs than most do. The reason I posted is that I do not like the way Kemal is brandished a whiner for no good reason at all.

ERIKK · 12-11-2003, 20:28

I looked at the bix and it looks fine. Stop this discussion and start playing please!

Kemal · 12-11-2003, 20:32

About some of the comments posted by Skyfish, Killer and anarres , I have to say I'm not very happy with people calling me a whiner based on the single sentence I posted along with my starting pic, in which the only things I say is that a) : Skyfish has a better civ (and I really don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that Ottomans are a better civ than the Vikings), and b) : Based on the two pictures showing our starting locations, Sky's start looks the better one, which I also feel cannot be denied.

When, based on this, people call me a whiner or accuse me of complaining about chosen civs (and they were indeed requested by me and Skyfish, which is not the same as them being of equal strength) I must admit I find this somewhat insulting.

That, in addition to the forementioned, people also start questioning my (IMO logical and at the very least defendable) opening moves, without having any knowledge of the situation whatsoever, and qualify these moves as blunders, is also something that I do not find very nice to say the least.

Pastorius · 12-11-2003, 20:50

I say judge a man on the results of his actions, not of his actions alone.
It is too early to go all out on eachother. Let's give peace (in this thread) a chance [

]

I agree with Kemal on a but I ll wait with b till more is revealed - as I believe anarres is a good, or at least decent map maker.

Also, I subscriped to this topic

This is, in case you wondered - my 2 cents.

Edited to correct spelling and grammar [

]

12-11-2003, 15:43	#11
Skyfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: dead. Posts: 2,349	Hey I need him to make blunders in order to have a fighting chance so let him play his own moves ok ? We're all a bunch of asswipes until somebody can beat him yeah so we better shut up I guess __________________ <font color=\"brown\"> <b><i>\"NOT back from the dead\"</b></i> </font id=\"brown\">

12-11-2003, 18:28	#12
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Don't worry - I'll give both of you misleading advice! __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

12-11-2003, 18:43	#14
Lt. Killer M Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: HAWK!. Posts: 4,365	Eldakkar: asumption on your part: who tells you kemal does not have a long tongue of water stretching to his capital enabeling him to beuild several caostal cities with low corruption? There is nothing in the posted pics that tells you what the surroundings look like. Rivers: it depends a LOT on the first ring. wait for more info! Lighthouse is NOT ridiculous - but rather something that one can consider seriously - if you have a close neighbout, well, AIs do not go fro the Lighthouse usually, maybe some leader fishing is possible? We do not know yet what the map holds! __________________ One more turn..... just one more turn... one MORE!

12-11-2003, 18:46	#15
Lt. Killer M Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: HAWK!. Posts: 4,365	oh, and remind me never to play against you - whenever I would have the slightest of the slight advantages I guess you would come whining..... I fully trust anarres (have you ever read one of his reports? if so you KNOW he knows about MMing and early game......) to make the starts a lot more even than the posted pics show. __________________ One more turn..... just one more turn... one MORE!

12-11-2003, 19:21	#16
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	Eldakkar - I can promise the starts are quite well balanced. I spent over 3 hours on this map so I certainly hope they are! I'm not going to say here what is or isn't out of sight in Kemal's and Sky's maps, but I can assure you they are not grossly imbalanced. One thing I would like to say about coast starts: You can't be surrounded by AI, and on Deity that can actually be an advantage. Also, with the way the FP rank bug works you actually suffer significantly less corruption overall in your empire if your palace has less cities close to it. If you wish to count shields and food for the initial start areas you can get the bix from this thread and check it out yourself. People are quite aware here of balance issues, we have been making maps for each other for some time and you get better with each map. Things like going though every single resource to make sure each continent as one for example (to enable both to go for space race without having to invade and hold the other continent - otherwise the game is pre-determined). Edit: A final note about civs - they were requested, so Kemal is being a bit cheeky complaining about being Viking. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

12-11-2003, 18:39	#13
Eldakkar Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 142	@Skyfish, Killer and Anarres. Kemal is not whining. Nobody who plays the early game right should be happy with the starts as posted above. Foremost is the location of the capital. Ask yourself, what determines corruption in your cities? That would be the distance to your capital. Kemal starts near the water. This means that he cannot build more than 3/4 cities close to his capital. You can already see that Skyfish, who did not start next to water can build cities on all sides of his capital. This means a lot in terms of early production! Secondly, Skyfish has a lot more squares adjacent to a river than Kemal. For you who do not understand the importance of rivers. Every adjacent river square increases your raw commerce by 1. A size 7 city next to a river can be easily kept happy under republic with 1 lux tax. Rivers are very powerful. Period. Skyfish has a bonus grass next to his starting loc. So yes he should found his city. Kemal has not. Maybe he found one nearby. It is logical to move the settler. I think it is incredible that you folks do not see the importance of using the bonus resource immediately. Don't you read the spoiler of real experts on civfanatics? Read some of Qitai, DavemcW, SirPleb or Bamspeedy's gotm spoilers and learn how much you can gain by playing your early game right. On the comment of berserkers. You are playing a large map. By the time you get to berserkers you should have at least 20 cities. Surely one of your next 19 can be coastal? The great lighthouse comment is ridiculous. They are playing deity remember? You cannot hope to get such a wonder on deity. And even if you did, you used 300 shields that could have been put to much better use, like improving your empire. This is purely based on the pics of these starting locations. Maybe there are other advantages which we do know of yet. But from what we can see, Skyfish's start is much better. Oh and to be sure. I say this on my own account. I do not like it if silly things are presented as good ideas.

12-11-2003, 20:28	#18
ERIKK Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands!. Posts: 2,636	I looked at the bix and it looks fine. Stop this discussion and start playing please!

12-11-2003, 20:32	#19
Kemal Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 3,108	About some of the comments posted by Skyfish, Killer and anarres , I have to say I'm not very happy with people calling me a whiner based on the single sentence I posted along with my starting pic, in which the only things I say is that a) : Skyfish has a better civ (and I really don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that Ottomans are a better civ than the Vikings), and b) : Based on the two pictures showing our starting locations, Sky's start looks the better one, which I also feel cannot be denied. When, based on this, people call me a whiner or accuse me of complaining about chosen civs (and they were indeed requested by me and Skyfish, which is not the same as them being of equal strength) I must admit I find this somewhat insulting. That, in addition to the forementioned, people also start questioning my (IMO logical and at the very least defendable) opening moves, without having any knowledge of the situation whatsoever, and qualify these moves as blunders, is also something that I do not find very nice to say the least. __________________ <b>\"In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die\" </b>

12-11-2003, 20:50	#20
Pastorius Custard used tile Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Opening a can Posts: 3,158	I say judge a man on the results of his actions, not of his actions alone. It is too early to go all out on eachother. Let's give peace (in this thread) a chance [] I agree with Kemal on a but I ll wait with b till more is revealed - as I believe anarres is a good, or at least decent map maker. Also, I subscriped to this topic This is, in case you wondered - my 2 cents. Edited to correct spelling and grammar [] __________________