What about Research?

anarres · 19-08-2003, 16:42

I want to know if people find their research strategies are different in PBEM's to SP games?

One thing I noticed: If you don't do the research yourself, you can't rely on the other human player to do it and sell it around. As a true tech leader (and not just a 1-turn tech leader) you are often better off denying it to the other human, rather than giving it to them mega-cheap. The AI's would normally recieve all my techs fairly quickly (up to their ability to pay), but now I think twice before selling my valuable techs.

I am a research-lover anyway, I often build Libs and Unis before their respective counterparts (often = not always, before you step in and give examples of when that is bad!). This is a carry-over from SP games where the AI gets too shabby to research anything useful in a decent space of time, pretty much always in the Middle Ages.

I understand that 'stealing is the new research', can someone shed some more light on this please? I had to spend about 1400 gold (or so) to steal a Middle Age tech (Banking) in my game vs Kemal, and considering that to buy it would cost not much more, can someone explain why this is so useful?

Sometmies stealing can be very useful - when you want to steal a lead tech the other human has researched. That way you can steal it and sell it around the same turn...

But! Does anyone prefer to go the 'no science' route and buy/steal all their tech? This used to be an option (that I never took) in SP games, but I can't see it working now in MP, or even in SP now we have the 'tech leader' trade bonus.

ProPain · 20-08-2003, 09:59

I rarely steal ever. Stealing techs & mobilising: both concepts I keep forgetting to use. Probably because my SP hardly make it past Mil Trad. After that I know if it's a win or not and usually dont bother to finish.

I do think stealing can be useful. When you're back in tech and buy a tech, the other human can scoop up that money by selling another tech. When you steal a tech the money is effectively out of the economy and so you deny that to your opponent too.

Aggie · 20-08-2003, 10:14

I prefer research over stealing anytime! Rellying on stealing from the start is unwise imho. You will always be one or more turns behind and miss crucial opportunities, like:

- getting ToE and Hoover
- being the first to use tanks
- being the first to use nukes
- etc...

However, the tactic of researching and not giving techs away (crucial ones) is commonly used by others as well (like me). Also it often can happen that you have a bad rep or that you want to deny others the money.

IMHO stealing is very powerful when you have no option to keep up in research, mainly in the Industrial Age and the Modern Age. This is the time that the humans pull away from the AI. With science at 30% you are often able to research a dead end tech in 20 turns (like Nationalism, Sanitation) while making > 500 gpt. This allows you to try a steal every 3 turns. Considering that about 50% of all stealing fails, you get a tech every 6 turns. Mostly you will then be the 2nd to have it, but the first to trade it around, netting you a lot of gpt, techs etc!

When you find out that you are going to be outresearched, banks, stock exchanges and Espionage become number one priority!

PS. I hate to steal, but will do it any time to keep up. Jack Merchant and me are experimenting in our game by making stealing twice as expensive!

Skyfish · 20-08-2003, 10:47

I strongly believe stealing is "broken" in 1vs1.
If you have a commercial civ the amount of money you make at the end of Middle Age A is so big and the first Industrial Age tachs are so expensive that it almost makes no sense searching them.

Quote:

quote:I had to spend about 1400 gold (or so) to steal a Middle Age tech (Banking) in my game vs Kemal, and considering that to buy it would cost not much more, can someone explain why this is so useful?

The crucial advantage of stealing is that you deny your ennemies of the money it would cost to buy

However I would also like to have games where stealing cost is made prohibitive, as it is it's almost exploitative

Shabbaman · 20-08-2003, 13:39

Stealing is better than buying, you don't want to help your opponent of course. How do you know when your human (!) opponent has just discovered a tech though?
I rarely use stealing or even spy missions, it's all too expensive. But then again, I'm a lousy player anyway...

jack merchant · 20-08-2003, 13:50

I almost never steal before the indutrial age (only time I did was vs DrA, but there it was worth it - I stole the republic). But in almost any 1vs1 game, the AIs are going to be dead or a non-factor sooner or later (unless you get killed first, of course

), and then you do need a research capability.

I suspect that it is generally better to sell the techs you research yourself almost right away - your opponent will get them too but at least you'll make a load of dosh to invest in further research, infra rushing and the like. If your opponent steals it and sells it around, they may actually make a profit on stealing from you.

Aggie · 20-08-2003, 14:49

@Jack: I didn't sell my techs in our game, after getting Radio

Once you have more than one tech over you opponent, it becomes difficult for him/her to judge how far he/she is behind. And then he/she has to guess whether there's something to steal.

Another tactic to avoid stealing is something I did vs Killer. I was clearly the fastest researcher, but at some point I stopped research and tried to fool him to steal a tech. He tried to steal a tech at that time, but got a message that the spy was caught. But otherwise he would have gotten a message that there was nothing to steal.

DrAlimentado · 20-08-2003, 19:17

you stole republic jack!! you lowlife... no wonder you complained when we had a few turns of phoney war, cheeky fucker!

just shows my pre-emptive strike WAS based on sound intelligence after all...

ProPain · 21-08-2003, 10:20

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by DrAlimentado

you stole republic jack!! you lowlife... no wonder you complained when we had a few turns of phoney war, cheeky fucker!

just shows my pre-emptive strike WAS based on sound intelligence after all...

This is why MP beats SP, you'll never have so much post-game fun in SP.

Pastorius · 15-11-2004, 11:22

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

Stealing is better than buying, you don't want to help your opponent of course. How do you know when your human (!) opponent has just discovered a tech though?
I rarely use stealing or even spy missions, it's all too expensive. But then again, I'm a lousy player anyway...

Can someone give any info on what

is asking here. I am wondering about these things these days as well. I think I have figured out how to read the diplo interface, but I want to learn more.

19-08-2003, 16:42	#1
anarres anarchist butcher Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States of Whatever. Posts: 4,677	What about Research? I want to know if people find their research strategies are different in PBEM's to SP games? One thing I noticed: If you don't do the research yourself, you can't rely on the other human player to do it and sell it around. As a true tech leader (and not just a 1-turn tech leader) you are often better off denying it to the other human, rather than giving it to them mega-cheap. The AI's would normally recieve all my techs fairly quickly (up to their ability to pay), but now I think twice before selling my valuable techs. I am a research-lover anyway, I often build Libs and Unis before their respective counterparts (often = not always, before you step in and give examples of when that is bad!). This is a carry-over from SP games where the AI gets too shabby to research anything useful in a decent space of time, pretty much always in the Middle Ages. I understand that 'stealing is the new research', can someone shed some more light on this please? I had to spend about 1400 gold (or so) to steal a Middle Age tech (Banking) in my game vs Kemal, and considering that to buy it would cost not much more, can someone explain why this is so useful? Sometmies stealing can be very useful - when you want to steal a lead tech the other human has researched. That way you can steal it and sell it around the same turn... But! Does anyone prefer to go the 'no science' route and buy/steal all their tech? This used to be an option (that I never took) in SP games, but I can't see it working now in MP, or even in SP now we have the 'tech leader' trade bonus. __________________ <b>Calculate the probability of culture flips: Flip Calc</b>

20-08-2003, 09:59	#2
ProPain Customized Admin :) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sailing the seas of cheese. Posts: 5,852	I rarely steal ever. Stealing techs & mobilising: both concepts I keep forgetting to use. Probably because my SP hardly make it past Mil Trad. After that I know if it's a win or not and usually dont bother to finish. I do think stealing can be useful. When you're back in tech and buy a tech, the other human can scoop up that money by selling another tech. When you steal a tech the money is effectively out of the economy and so you deny that to your opponent too. __________________ I fed my Dog the American Dream Well, he rolled over and he started to scream He said, I dig the taste of salt but it don't keep me alive yeah, yeah

20-08-2003, 13:39	#5
Shabbaman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Costa La Haya Posts: 8,494	Stealing is better than buying, you don't want to help your opponent of course. How do you know when your human (!) opponent has just discovered a tech though? I rarely use stealing or even spy missions, it's all too expensive. But then again, I'm a lousy player anyway... __________________ "Our spam is backed with COMETS!"

20-08-2003, 13:50	#6
jack merchant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Netherlands. Posts: 479	I almost never steal before the indutrial age (only time I did was vs DrA, but there it was worth it - I stole the republic). But in almost any 1vs1 game, the AIs are going to be dead or a non-factor sooner or later (unless you get killed first, of course ), and then you do need a research capability. I suspect that it is generally better to sell the techs you research yourself almost right away - your opponent will get them too but at least you'll make a load of dosh to invest in further research, infra rushing and the like. If your opponent steals it and sells it around, they may actually make a profit on stealing from you. __________________ Twente for the cup !

20-08-2003, 19:17	#8
DrAlimentado Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the cookie jar. Posts: 1,568	you stole republic jack!! you lowlife... no wonder you complained when we had a few turns of phoney war, cheeky fucker! just shows my pre-emptive strike WAS based on sound intelligence after all... __________________ <font color=\"red\">sign up for the best game on the forum</font id=\"red\"> <font color=\"green\">My Army</font id=\"green\"> <font color=\"green\">Help my orcs to prosper</font id=\"green\"> MapTweaker Utility beta (copy/paste/resize biq files)

20-08-2003, 10:14	#3
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	I prefer research over stealing anytime! Rellying on stealing from the start is unwise imho. You will always be one or more turns behind and miss crucial opportunities, like: - getting ToE and Hoover - being the first to use tanks - being the first to use nukes - etc... However, the tactic of researching and not giving techs away (crucial ones) is commonly used by others as well (like me). Also it often can happen that you have a bad rep or that you want to deny others the money. IMHO stealing is very powerful when you have no option to keep up in research, mainly in the Industrial Age and the Modern Age. This is the time that the humans pull away from the AI. With science at 30% you are often able to research a dead end tech in 20 turns (like Nationalism, Sanitation) while making > 500 gpt. This allows you to try a steal every 3 turns. Considering that about 50% of all stealing fails, you get a tech every 6 turns. Mostly you will then be the 2nd to have it, but the first to trade it around, netting you a lot of gpt, techs etc! When you find out that you are going to be outresearched, banks, stock exchanges and Espionage become number one priority! PS. I hate to steal, but will do it any time to keep up. Jack Merchant and me are experimenting in our game by making stealing twice as expensive!

20-08-2003, 14:49	#7
Aggie Emperor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N/A Posts: 4,490	@Jack: I didn't sell my techs in our game, after getting Radio Once you have more than one tech over you opponent, it becomes difficult for him/her to judge how far he/she is behind. And then he/she has to guess whether there's something to steal. Another tactic to avoid stealing is something I did vs Killer. I was clearly the fastest researcher, but at some point I stopped research and tried to fool him to steal a tech. He tried to steal a tech at that time, but got a message that the spy was caught. But otherwise he would have gotten a message that there was nothing to steal.