*WOA's Spoiler* vs gozpel
 

Hi there, this is my first visit here. Some of you might know my from the civfanatics forums.

I just started my first PBEM. It is against Gozpel.
I see a lot of spoiler threads here, are those made with some turns delay, don't you read eachothers spoilers or do you just not care about your opponents reading what you do ?

hey WOA, welcome to CDZ!

any special reason why you use grahamiam's forum for this? Are you a friedn of his?

About the spoilers: we trust each other - period! I have been surprise-attacked so often (and done the same to others) that it would be absurd to assume anyone breaks this trust :D

Ah, ok then this is gonna be my spoiler thread.

Since this is my first PBEM and it is gonna be completely different from what i expected (i expected small map with little or no AI presence) feel free to give me multiplayer advice :p

I used Gman's forum because he is the guy who made the map, he is an old team companion in the SGOTM's at civfanatics and he invited me to use this forum for spoiler threads.

To start with the game settings:
-both players Maya
-pangea (standard size)
-6 or so AI opponents
-No barbs
-If Gozpel is at the opposite side and about the same distance of the edges, he is at about 110 tiles distance (so i won't be able to horsemen rush his ass as i had planned when he challenged me for PBEM :D)

Hi wacken! I changed you title so gozpel doesn't get spoiled. Good luck and thanks for posting a spoiler :)

sorry, i also forgot

[spam3]

Ohye, no barbs, does that also mean no huts ? (Yep, i am a civ newbie)

And do you want the spoiler to be short and compact like most of the spoilers i see here, or do you want my uninteresting proces of thought, short term and long term plans included like i always post in the (s)gotms ?

No barbs, no huts.

This is your spoiler, so make of it what you want :) Some pic's of interesting things would be good and will keep people posting comments and stuff. Really, anything you want (or nothing at all if you're too busy).

You noticed that mine were short [blush], well, I'm not the best at spoilers and kids take up so much time, that the little time left over for personal stuff leaves very little time to do nice spoilers [blush] I try to keep up to date, but usually can't, oh well

So gozpel gets a worthy opponent this time? Good luck!

Cheers WOA. [guiness]
This will be fun to watch. Us lurkers like pictures and discussion of big picture stuff.
Why doesn't Goz have a forum here?

Don't forget this is my very first ever PBEM, so tell me about Gozpels style, tell me all those multiplayer inside secrets, tell me everything ;)

I can tell you that he likes to drop off cavalry on your rear in quantities of 30, but I guess that doesn't really help in the beginning [smirk]

There are a few ground rules that are there so that you can't take advantage of the game engine at the expense of your opponent. One is to don't give units a go-to move. This is because the units that already have a move order more than one turn will move their next turns moves at the end of the current turn. It's a little odd, but it would allow re-enforcements to cover a wounded unit 1-turn earlier than it would have otherwise. Some of the other players here can let you in on the other rules.

I'm very interested in your spoiler. I've always wondered how your team has skyrocketed in SGOTM, but have never had enough effort to go peruse your threads.

I've never played gozpel and haven't played many PBEM's myself until recently. So no advice on that front. Good luck

No, and i am not expecting that to be the biggest problem. I already know for sure that i will need to keep a lookout to what is comming and as long as it isn't amphibious, it should be solvable :)

This brings me to a first specific question though:
-If i place units out to scout like boats on the coast and spears on mountains, do i get to see his moves when his units do not end their turn inside my sight radius but only move trough my radius instead?

-Reading some spoilers, i also saw something about building the pyramids. I understand that multiplayer will be a race for wonders like Hoover Dam and maybe Leo's workshop, but is building early wonders like pyramids common practice in PBEM ?

Goz also told me that all the common exploits are forbidden, but that scrolling trough cities to double use tiles is common and allowed.
-Is this something we can only do when you actually have a city build completing in one of your cities, or is there a way to do this every turn, also in the beginning when we only have 2 cities?
-How does the AI decide the order in wich it will cycle trough the cities ?

Well, gozpel just finished kicking my ass in our game. Part of it was due to general lack of interest/attentiveness to the game on my part. When he suggested the game, I probably only accepted because it was gozpel. But the majority was just due to gozpel's ability to grow. On that front, you two are very similar, which is why I said that the match should be fairly even. If you are on the same continent though, or within galley range, don't count on being able to do an all out farmer's gambit for more than 30-40 turns, and even that is stretching it on some maps. And don't forgot that you aren't playingn against stupid predictable exploitable computer opponents. In my first game, against grahamiam, I was out expanding and producing grahamiam, but only had the sort of defense that would beat back the pathetic AI landings, not one constructed by a human.

Well, that is kinda the part that i regret about this game. (not really in a bad way that i don't like the game, i just have to rethink my plans and addept to the current situation) I have pretty good experience in multiplayer starcraft and C&C, so i know how to be agressive in multiplayer. This game will however not be suitable for that. I am in one corner of a standard size map with 6 deity AI. It is only logical to expect Gozpel is on the other end of the map, meaning it will be 110 tiles to walk or slightly more to sail. I don't really expect to see anything within 80 turns.

For those landings i also have a plan already.
I think I will build a large amount of vessels, if he is gonna be sending me a fleet with units to land, i will sink his fleet with units included.

If he does not send me a fleet, i might send some myself, or i might just move my fleet in his direction in order to divert his main force that should be conquering AI ground back home for defence and thus waste valuable time and maybe allow the AI to punish him back a little.

An empty but scary fleet might also be nice to draw his units when i am gonna attack him over land :)

I still need to decide if i think the lighthouse is worthy to hide my fleet in open sea (and prevent him from building it and doing so)

I can't find any forums with Civ multiplayer strategies, is there none anywhere?

Since you are 2nd, you will be able to see the AI's movement that go after you. However, you will not see the human's movement. I used this fact to beat bedhead and killer [smirk]

You are playing with diety AI's, so don't expect to build early wonders. If it was just a 1x1, no AI game (more interesting imho), then yes, you should think about those things.

I suggest you and goz agree on a ruleset, as best you can. It will avoid unnecessary disagreements later. The scroll ahead in pbem, as far as I know, works the same as single player in order to prevent riots. I doubt that scrolling ahead to fiddle with scientist/taxman will be allowed, but again, you guys need to decide before playing too far into the game. I have no idea what the AI does, but it's probably pretty stupid [rabbit]

Since you are 2nd, you will be able to see the AI's movement that go after you. However, you will not see the human's movement. I used this fact to beat bedhead and killer [smirk]

I don't understand how being second influences that.?

because after you're done, the AI moves and you will see it. You never see the human move in a pbem. And if you're 1st, you never see the AI move either.

Wow thats some bad game design :)
I guess that means i will need multiple boats then later on in the game when movement is longer than the area of sight.

Does anyone know a method of pushing a nearby AI into building the pyramids? I am guessing this is gonna be a kind of game breaker :)

Sometimes the Map Maker will put the AI that are close to the first player rigth after him in the turn order so the game is more "natural" at first.

I don't know how you can force the AI into making the pyramids other than gifting them the tech, starting a war and having them kick off their GA. Do you guys know who the AI are? Any adjustments to SoZ?

Wellcome to CDZ, Wacken! :)

SoZ is made small wonder.

Ok, i included a picture from the start.
I started on top of that forest. Not a good good place to make optimal use of the river. I moved the worker north up the river to search cow, found the wines and decided to move the settler eastward. Some may think NE would be better, but this spot is better for making optimal use of the river and the city will not receive a granary anyway, so i can do without those extra BG and use those for my second city. After settling, i find another 3 BG there, so that looks pretty fine after all anyway.
One city will be placed at the end of the river, probably SW of the forest, maybe SW of the mountain if that tile touches water. Up north I will see, if the river goes straight to sea there, i will find the best way to put 2 more cities on the river there.

With this screenshot i am now off to make an excel sheet and decide how many warriors i will build before the first settler. Research is set to alphabet as i want to beat Gozpel to Philosophy.

The river goes further south than i expected, i will have to scout if it is does not start in one of those mountains and maybe provides more river grassland there. (Or is it actually 2 rivers both strating from that same mountain)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...2805959_T3.JPG
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My opponents are:
Japan
Vikings - Alphabet+Warrior Code
French - Alphabet+Masonry
Mongols
Indians - Alphabet+Ceremonial
Chinese

All have early MA UU's, so that will be a bloody field probably. Lets hope the blood sheds on Gozpel's side.

With all these alphabet guys, i am tempted not to research it myself and i put my research at zero. I will trade alphabet faster than i can research it. It looks interesting to research another tech, but i am not sure yet. Zero research might also be a good choise since they are gonna research Bronze Working themselves and they will be doing it faster than I.
I feel that i must take this gamble. If it works out and i can trade Alpha, i might have a money surplus while researching Writing and have very good chances of winning to philosophy. If i fail to trade it, at least i can recognise the failure in advance and find the best way to go without a free tech. If i research to Philo and Goz is 1 turn faster, i might be on a big loss if sacrificed other opportunities in favor of trying to beat Goz to Philo.

is there any way to predict whom of them are near me, maybe by the order of listing in the F10 screen ?

IMHO, in these kind of games, the most important rule is the number of military alliances with AI against the other player allowed simultaneously. Like one or two or none at all.

Is also taken care of, only 1 Alliance.
And we decided not to do the scrolling thing.

[confused] There might be no cows/wheat around.

Do you and Gozpel allow free Palace jump?

Yeah, it's just a wine, with 4 fpt the benefit will not be complete (2 overflow) and new cities value is 3fpt already so a settler is more food efficient. Sure a granary will be build someday later.

No, no palace jumping, no chip chaining, no ROP raping.


Excel tells me a second warrior is gonna cost me 2 turns on my first settler. So i will build only 1 and then a settler. The one warrior will move straight across the map to the oposite corner. I must find as many AI as possible asap in order to trade alphabet. I also prefer to find Gozpel asap of course, but i realise that my path will quite possibly be blocked by AI before i reach him. I will thus try to build a boat for scouting somewhat early.

Gman, i assume AI agressiveness is standard ?

What about the second settler? How much longer will it take to get the 2nd settler with the ealrier 1st settler? or is that not a concern?

AI aggressiveness is standard, please let gozpel know that too :)

For the first settler it is not a concern at all, it must be build before the granary. For later settlers i am not sure yet when i will build a granary.
Only when the production exceeds the food for settler production in the city so that after the granary, it can catch up the lost time.

A new city is worth 3fpt.
A granary helps me from 4 to 6.7 fpt for a net 2.7fpt.
And a granary takes longer to build.

Note that while a granary will make the 3th 4th etc settler come earlier, that first new city will also be producing food and thus new settlers and workers that now come earlier.
In this stage of the game, the only matter is optimizing your total fpt. (well, in multiplayer, commerce also has a somewhat increased significance, but i decided that while increased it still is very insignificant compared to food since Gozpel wont be doing the full rep slingshot anyway)

I have not done this in an excel sheet because this is a very clear case of settler before granary. I may calculate it more precise for later settlers when the time is there and when i know exactly when and where i am gonna settle my next cities. Excel only decided yet that i will build only 1 warrior.

It is turn 18 (picture one turn old) now and the first settler is built.

While i could not see them, i had planned to settle on both the BG's you can see in the Northwest on the river. After moving the Settler to its current position and discovering the BG, i had to change plans. Unfortunately this costs me a wasted turn and it makes my city placement somwhat tight. As you can see the 2 red dots.
The bleu dot is an obvious one.

The black dots are the only real option to have the cities in that region on rivers and have their borders meet up to cover the luxuries in between them without cultural expansion. Unfortunately, that again leads to a tight city placement. Without the closest black city, i could place the Orange and White city more optimal.

I will decide on these spots after settling the red and bleu ones and hopefully having scouted the area a bit more.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...3_untitled.JPG
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My scouting warrior just spotted chinese border, i should meet them next turn or so. Unfortunately, an AI without alphabet.

I never thought of the maximizing food other than the obvious. I've never really thought of the granary as "producing" food. Thanks for that insight :D

While I am definately not the expert here, I learned that tight placement seems to be a good thing in Civ3 PBEM games. Three tiles and even closer often is a good choice.

From what I've gathered (and I'm no expert either), tight city placement gets production up, but once the nut is cracked, the rest of the cities are easily taken.

Can anyone confirm?

I am not thinking about that.
I don't know what you guys normally do in PBEM's, but i can tell you, i won't be building many defenders. (If any at all)
When i see an incomming Gozpel attack, i will make sure i have fast moving attackers ready to take them down before they hit my cities.

Fast moving units and perfect infrastructure should be the goal in multiplayer. Defending otherwise gives your opponent too much opportunities.

Furthermore, the loss of one core city is very bad. I do not plan with rescue plans for such scenario's, i rather plan to prevent such scenario's.

This particular game should be a pretty long game due to travel distance and AI interference. I want my cities to grow to size 10-12.

It is now turn 27.
Up till now, i was getting more and more worried about my 0 research plan since i did not meet any AI for a long time.
China had Alphabet, but would not sell it. I now met my second AI, Scandinavia, and they have it as well.
Alphabet research would have costed 200 beakers, and i have 174 gold in cash now. I can buy alphabet for 164g + 3gpt. So, not much is lost yet, buying it now comes it roughly the same cost as self research.

I will however wait a little more before buying it. As my tresury increases, they will demand less gpt from me, so waiting a few more turns should not cost me time on my Writing research. And who knows, hopefully i will meet a 3th civ in those few turns, making the trade a lot cheaper.

The second settler has been made last turn and moved to the second red dot. The first red dot already produced a warrior who is scouting the north.

Update turn 31:
I have met 2 more AI's and bought Alphabet for 178 gold.
So i took a chance hoping to get some trades for basically free alphabet, but i ended up having no real advantage. The price is almost the same, and i got it a turn later than research would have. The risk now is the gold ending up in Gozpel's pockets. Let's hope that will not happen.

My scouting warriors have found a cow, but it is too far to settle for now.
Gozpel is ahead on me in score, but that does not mean i am at a disadvantage since i have a very tight city placement and thus not a lot of territory.

So are you not researching at all? It appears as though waiting alpha is going to leave you a little behind.

No not really. Alphabet costs 200 to research.
Very often, i started researching it, but long before i finished it, i got into multiway trades providing alphabet and more.
Therefore, i took the risk not to do any research, providing me with money. This money could make multiway trades easier or it could be used to research writing and philo on a deficit.

As long as i trade Alpha before i gather 210 gold, i will not have lost time. I now traded it when i had 218 gold i think. So i lost one turn there. On the other hand i have a little gold remaining to use on deficit researching in the future.
So the risk i took has not succeeded in paying off, but the damage is not big as long as the money doesn't end up with Gozpel.

Researching it myself would also not have provided any trading opportunity, All the AI's have all the same techs including alphabet.

I have now set research to max on writing.
I think it should be visible if i get it before or after Gozpel. Whoever gets it first, probably sells it to the AI for everything.

But you cannot prevent the money going to Gozpel. If he has met the same AI you paid money to and if he owns a tech the AI doesn't then it will probably happen.