Kemal vs Skyfish THE REVENGE *****SPOILER****
 

Deity (straight)
Large
Continents (only 2), max land
Normal/temperate/old
each of us sharing a continent with 3 AIs (6 AIs total)
Sedentary barbs

Kemal : Player 1/ admin : Vikings
Skyfish : Player 2 : Ottomans
(Just because I was player 1 in our last game...)

Here is my start :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...tart-Kemal.jpg

For more on my opening position check the Open thread :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/to...?TOPIC_ID=1070

The hut that you see on the start popped "Pottery" :D
Great stuff so much for half of Kemal's advantage of being Expansionist !
I will need a lot of luck in this game so this is starting perfectly [goggle]

The Large map, no barbs and native lux was going to allow me a nice farmers' gambit...I thought, well bad news came actually very quickly :
the Americans are right on my doorstep [aargh] Thats for my hut luck...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...3150-lands.jpg


To make matters even worse, they got fuck all to trade ! [mad3]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...50-diploUS.jpg


Well at least it s a shitty Civ next door with no UU, no GA and no cheap buildings...
They will as first meet the rage of the Ugly Turks and their ignominious Leader Skyfish ! [devil2]

As you can notice I went on a crazy min science gamble again : I tested it on large continent maps a few times and was satisfied, we'll see what it brings this time...
[crazyeye]

Nice start, a town on the goldhill would be nice, might even have a chance for colossus if you start it at once.

[hmm] I hate going for ancient wonders at Deity level, I don't believe I will do it...

Making sure I will get the Colossus means joining workers to the city, high lux tax to keep the pop happy, etc... it comes at a great price to the rest of the empire.
The only wonder worse doing that is the Pyramids.

pussy.... ;)

[lol]

oh well..... another gmae where the start looks better than mine in the kingreno game..... :p

At least I did not make the map from your KingReno game right ? :D

Sky: but it looks as if you did!

Of which turn are the pictures above?

[eek]

[shout] A spy from the enemy camp ! [aargh]

Like hell am telling you dude ! [lol]

[lol]

Come on, have a little faith, Sky, or are you still not convinced that Kemal and I are not the same person?

Maybe i should post a picture.

But i would guess you popped a settler or advanced tribe, since Edrine is obviously brand new and Istanbul has not built a settler recently.

If you post a picture then yes, I will believe you 100% :D

Yeah post a pic of both of you, as brothers, so we can see if you look alike...

OK the first turn of the game was reached and with great success !
On turn 40 my min science run on Iron Working completed and I got monopoly : I had just met the other 2 civs as well so it completed perfectly (remember I am close to the Americans).
I forgot to keep track of the exact deal sequence but I got all first level techs PLUS Writing and Mysticism...and still have 200g in the chest, so it was a nice result.
I first bought Alphabet, than saw that Babylon had Writing (I had hoped one or more civ with writing !) *and* they had no contact with America :D
So with Iron Working+contact with America+385g that I got from selling IW to Korea I bought Writing and sold it for all other techs and did a 2fer with Mysticism that Korea had.
Big round of trade it was.

During the min sci run, I bought 2 workers from America ! Gotta love a gamble !
(By the way I had extensively tested that one...)

Knowing Kemal's tech pace I need a really quick pace on my continent so I am playing differently than normal, I want the AIs to contribute as much as possible, only America will be weakened as they are so close.
Thus my next choice of going to max science on Mathematics : I want to trade Math for the post writing techs (Philo, CoL, MapMaking and Lit).
Will see how it goes...

Here is the empire : a definite farmer's gambit [eek] The advantage of Large continent max land :D The settler is going for the Incense, I am desperate for luxes. Two more cities will be built in the forests on the first ring.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...645_1900bc.jpg
98.51*KB

wow, did you edit the 200 AI troops out or did they really not come to attack you? If I leave any town bigger than size 3 empty I KNOW they will attack within 5 turns......

Thats only because they hate *you* personally Killer :D

Seriously I am very open to attacks here but I can quickly switch all those build orders and whip like mad if needs to be...
From now on only my 2 granny cities will produce worker/settler and the rest will go on military duty.

[lol]




erm...they seem to hate me as well :(

Great lands, Sky! Kemal shouldn't stand a chance against these Ottoman farmers ;)

[eek] [eek]
Gulp!

Indeed they are great lands but am sure Kemal's got the same so please dont expect anything [blush2]...

Sky, dopnt place your cities on shores, remember Kemal is the Vikings...

Yes I know that Erikk, I made my dotmap in order to have only 2 shore core cities.
However it would be a huge mistake not too have any shore cities, I would simply lose the game if I dont.
My take on Berzerks is that they need to be carried by boats, one needs to strike the Zerks before they even get to your cities [evil]
The best defence is the offence !

hehehe... [evil]

I would like to see some Naval battles!

Carry on Admiral Skyfish but be sure where to strike at Kemals fleet, you will need to know
where his fleet is when the time is right...

Long due update.
The game is progressing great, its quite intense. I have to apologize I did not knwo take notes recently and have been real busy.
In short my max sci on Math worked out perfect, the AIs had tech and money, I had 2 huge trading rounds and now the sprint towards Republic has started.
Both Babylon and Korea are absolutely great for complemeting each other with techs, they have nice lands and are strong AIs, hell they even blackmailed once each :D
America also did its bit by getting a tech from hut and thus contributing to 2 huge trading rounds ! All techs are known and I share everything so we can outresearch Kemal (like that would ever be possible [lol])
We just need Currency and Construction (since 1600BC!) to be in Middle Age, then 3 of us will get a free tech [evil] hopefully letting the other continent in the dust [mwaha]

I am building troops to take out those nice Industrious Americans who just built the Pyramids in honour of their great Ottoman neighbors :D

I am producing 2 vet chariots per turn right now.

Here is a view of my strategic position, America will make a great second core but I have this belt of shitty lands separating me from the rest of the continent [sad]
My second ring is at distance 8-8.5 so I can stuff the FP ring nicely.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...50-zoomout.jpg

It's been a real nice game until now and I have not made too many mistakes. The only blight in the plan has been the US settling that 2nd ring coastal site under my nose [mad3] They will pay dearly for this atrocity.
I could have 20 cities by 1000bc but I will keep the settlers to fill the second core. All will hang on how long do I have to wait for a GL [devil]

So thoase Americans weren't very close after all ;) They were just very quickly near you with their scouts. Looks like a great game so far [thumbsup]

Well as you can see with San Francisco, the Americans are much too close for comfort. For a large map with less AIs than normal I feel they could have been further away. Of course it s not a problem at all and the map is turning out greeat so far ! Its just that I did not expect it so I had not planned for it.
I am very happy it's the "no UU, no GA civ" and now that they have the Pyramids its turned out into a great advantage.

We are now at a crucial stage in the game for me :
- I am 1 turn away from Republic
- Korea has Currency so we only miss Construction now !
- My forces are ready to be upgraded in Aydin my border city and attack 'en masse' the Americans : just need HBR and 100g to upgrade my 20 chariots to Horses [evil]
- I have 4 or 5 settlers ready to re-settle the US.
- With Rep at monopoly (I hope) I will be able to synch our passage to the Middle Ages and maybe use the "Big Picture" screen so that the 3 of us get the 3 first MA techs.
- I have one galley going round but I dont expect any contact yet...However that galley has allowed me to sell my WM every other turn to the AIs for almost exactly my deficit of research :D
- Kemal has overtaken me in score in a very drastic way: he must be expanding like mad but I have stopped my expansion in order to build free settlers for the second core. If I dont get a Leader am dead but I have to take risk if I stand any chance vs the Master himself.
- I have stopped my mil build up to start Libs in my core so that I can research fast during MA in order to take adavantage of the free Sci techs me and my neighbours will get.

Notice on the picture how Washington is at size 1 : imagine the Pyramids get auto-razed [mwaha] [lol]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...-BeforeRep.jpg

overkill

I just hope you have better RNG luck that I usually encounter....

Its never overkill ...because even if I get "your" RNG, I will still be OK ;)

I have just played what was my biggest turn ever since I play Civ3 ever !

I was expecting a big turn with Republic coming in, declaration of War on America and the possibility of getting into the Middle Ages...
but first lets take you through the turn as it happened :

I open the save and first thing I get is this :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...BeforeWar1.jpg

[rotfl] [lol] [rotfl]
Those Americans are visionaries sometimes arent they ;)
Well guess what ?
I tell him to Fuck Off hoping he will declare and I can get the happiness :)
But of course no such luck :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...BeforeWar2.jpg

Then I get the screen telling me I found The Republic, having heard of that last exploit of using the Big Picture screen
and having 16 cities I though I would put that trick to good use.
So when the screen comes up I go to Big Picture and
decide to check my AIs to see what I can trade for Republic before one of them gets it :
Korea has Currency and Babylon has Contruction, perfect :D
So I trade Republic to Babs for Construction+HBR (more expensive than Curency) plus all their money (326g).
I then try to trade Construction for Currency to Koreans who actually will not accept it ! [eek]
I want to keep Republic to trade for their first MA tech and since the price of Currency is so high and also they have 220g+
that I want I decide, after long hesitations to wait,
I can always close the deal during my turn
and still lost in my thoughts... I quit the F4 screen instead of going to F1 to revolt [aargh] [wallbash]
I'll never get used to some of those tricks [sad]

Feeling really disgusted I get into the game, mechanically moving units and workers
to finally get to my galley which I had actually forgotten [blush2] and then this happens :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...eforeArab1.jpg

The other continent ! I need to suicide it but hey if I could get contact this turn that would be absolutely awesome no ?
Well I move straight towards the pink line and here is what I see :D

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...eforeArab2.jpg

BINGO !
[jump] [party] [drunk] [band]

The Arabs are actually up Currency [eek] but have no Republic, Literature or Construction. I ask for everything they have :
- Comms with Scandinavia (Kemal), India and Carthage (the rest of the AIs)
- All their money (146g)
- Currency
- World Map !
Well Republic does not pay for it alone of course but Rep+Literature does !
If not it would take my whole treasure (aro 750g ?) but I need money for my Chariot upgrade
and I want to run def research asap in MA.
Also I believe Kemal is already in Republic since he got that huge boost in score recently so I got no qualms with selling Republic to the other AIs.
Of course it could help him getting it faster or making it affordable to him if he is not researching it
but I very seriously doubt it, I am sure he already has it at this point, I ahve studied his gaems very closely.
With luck if could prevent him from a major deal which would also be nice [evil]

So I accept this deal described above and suddenly discover the whole map and more importantly Kemal's territory.
Well I must admit Continent maps are just amazing for this ! After playing 85 or so turns "in the dark" having no idea
what your opponent looks like or is doing and then finally with one click of the mouse discovering *everything* is just an amazing feeling !
The adrenaline rush you get from it beats some of the best drugs,
I love the Mystery but I love the Discovery of the Mystery is even better;)
Its too bad we will lose that feeling a bit with C3C...

And what a spectacle do I get !!!!!!!
Kemal has a huge Empire with a loose ICS.
Even worse he has ALREADY jumped his Palace and must already have an FP and 2 productive cores !
Un-fuckin-believable ! He has 22 cites to my 16 !
I have never seen such developped Empire so early, it just looks frightening...
and that was me thinking I had played not too bad up to now [cry]
I might as well resign right now, it wll save us all valuable time !

Take a look at his lands, notice no Trondheim anymore, you can compare it to his start postion in the open thread :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...Kemal-Land.jpg

And the MiniMap :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...emal-Land2.jpg

Now a bit of good news, a quick check on the F3 screen shows him in Despotism.
Even better the F4 screen shows him lacking The Republic, Literature, Currency and Construcion !
Yeeha ! Even more unbelievable than his lands ! Just for that F4 screen I dont care if I lose the game now :D

He must have been really close to Republic and expecting it to trade it for the 2 missing Ancient Tech with the AIs. Or he went for Construction...who knows?
There is a ton of information to process so at that point I left the turn open ...
and went to bed, I had some serious thinking to do on how to turn this lucky break into a major advantage...
I already had some ideas of course [mwaha]

(To be continued very very soon)

wow! [eek]

Kill him off Sky, you can do it!!! [satan]

ps:
funny that statement from Killer, as I told you the opposite: only 20 horses and nothing else

seems a bit tricky IMO. Certainly when you arent building any more troops (but libraries)...

Coolness :). Reads like a very exciting thriller movie! I wonder how it ends :D

hehehe. Good luck, you will need it!

Thanks guys !

Erikk : no way I can do it man ! He is huge and got loads of big cities and his lands have much more food bonuses than mine.
I might do a comparative study later if I have time.
Also he has tons of coastal cities and will flood me with Berzerks !
Even Rifles lose massively vs those fuckers [mad]

I already told Kemal when we started :
This is the PBEM of all PBEMs to end the PTW era :
if I win this one I will retire from PBEMs and possibly Civ3...could not reach a higher goal :D

Plux : I can guarantee you it's not a Hollywood movie so dont expect any "happy end" !

I better go on before I forget the rest of the story, I lost some of my notes already [blush]
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

OK so we know a bit more about Kemal now but what about the other AIs ?
India is stronger than Carthage, they have Currency and Literature but no Republic !
Carth is missing Lit and Republic, both have almost no money though...

Now the funny part about this is that I have asked *multiple times*,
hell I even begged him to get an agreement about the fact that we should not have abusive MAs or phoney wars :
he always refused saying we could negotiate "in the game" once he can "evaluate the situation better" ! grrr...
Well now I am going to show him why I think its not fun to play with "anything goes" rules !
I buy Embassies with India, Carthage and Arabs, I go to the F4 screen, declare War on Kemal,
go to India, buy an Alliance (and all their money) for Republic,
I go to Carthage and do the same.
Finally I go to the Arabs and buy an Alliance for Construction :D
This last move was a tough decision because now Construction
is known by one AI Kemal has contact with and it will be cheaper
for him to search it
but since he is at war with Arabia (and everyone else he knows)
at least he can not buy it for 6 turns !

Finally, I realize I am in the Middle Ages now since I got Currency from Arabs but both Korea and Babs still aren't...
My free tech is Monotheism !
I go to the Babs and gift them Currency (they have nothing left...)
They get Feudalism ! [joker]
Monotheism + 187g buys me Feudalism !
Now I go to Korea and sell them Construction for all their money (remember I wanted to grab it during the inter-turn...)
turns out it was 232g.
They draw Feudalism too... cant have all the luck of course !

And that concludes this huge trading round :
- I have all the money in the world (760g) except the 187g I gave to the Babs.
- I am up Republic, Construction, Currency, Literature, Monotheism
and Feudalism on Kemal
- I have exclusive contacts between the 2 continents and I am the only one to have the World Map.
- He is at war with all the AIs he knows so no way he can trade for techs in the next 6 turns (except if he has a galley close of course)
- All AIs are Polite towards me, except Korea who still lacks Republic (I am hoping I can trade for it later)

Here is a nice screenie :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...l-Diplo925.jpg

Finally to conclude, I go to Aydin my garrison city, upgrade my 20 chariots for 400g and declare war honourably on the Americans.
Then at last I go to the F1 screen and go into Anarchy : I draw 6 turns which is average all things considered.

This was my most exciting round for as long as I can remember and just the thought of Kemal opening the turn makes me chuckle :
I can always say that for one moment, a short unreal moment, I had the edge over him [king]

Of course I had to fuck up somewehre, I still made a crucial mistake :
I should have bought embassies with Korea and Babylon before going into Anarchy. One can not buy Embassies while in Anarchy [no]
Now if Kemal finds Korea then he will be able to trade with them and get contact with Babs and Americans.
I did not want to give
my AIs contact with him though in order to keep tech costs up,
that is why the whole world is not at war with them.
If my galley survives it will stay at that junction so that if Kemal is close to finding the Koreans
(and my galley can not sink his [lol]) then I can get an Embassy with Korea and buy an Alliance with them...
Thats hoping it will be in more than 6 turns [rolleyes]

Sweet [thumbsup]

JfC!!!!!!

That's the fun of playing without any phoney MA rules. The lucky one who finds the other
human first can fuck the other. You might even be more lucky with a lot of ai units present
on his lands or workers near the border who can be grabbed etc etc... If Kemal is player 1
and Sky player 2, the AI will move first (I think) which would suck even more for Kemal as he
probably went for a farmer gambit.

I can go on but what I am saying here is that luck determines a big deal of this particular
game, and that sucks IMO... [rolleyes]

Yes that is the case, I am player 2.

but it would not "suck" :
- he chose for a farmers gambit (if thats the case) knowing pretty
well that an AI could attack him at any point !
Remember/know what a "gambit" means ?

- he refused vehemently any kind of agreement regarding phoney wars/MAs :
anybody refusing them should be ready for the worse
at any point I know for sure he will not complain one second about it...

Sorry to be so rude when you are so kind to post in my forum but...[blush2]
I disagree again... Luck is a factor in Civ3, and thank god for that or else it would be as boring as fuck !
But also to be honest most of us here are of equal level on this
forum so of course luck is going to be the deciding factor in loads
of PBEMs, nothing you could ever do about and i dont believe it sucks.

Luck is what can make weaker players like me have a chance of beating extraordinary players like Kemal !
The guy needs to lose at least once in his life no ? ;)

My two cents: phoney wars and setting up ma's like this have less to do with luck than getting a freakin' SGL in the ancient age !!

Sky: you did great ;)