16+ player: The Civant Alliance - SPOILER
 

Just to get things started....[cool]

First concern obviously has to be the choice of the tribe. I am afraid with the 5 (2+3) choices I got myself into a lot of trouble since this is really a tough decision.
It all depends on what the others choose - do they count on getting a good agri-tribe like Iros or Celts, are they just going for low-priority agri-civs (like Inca or Dutch) or maybe even no agri-civs at all and simply going for a decent other tribe?

The thing is, if we select a not-so-good agri-civ we risk that everybody else thinks so, too and maybe one team will actually get Iros then. Therefore I am in favour of selecting Iros as first pick, just to make sure nobody else selects them.

For the second choice we have to assume that some agri-civs have already been selected and only a limited amount is left. For that reason I am for Dutch as the second choice. They are, imho, the weakest agri-civ in C3C and for that reason there might be a decent chance that nobody else selects them. One thing is clear: Any agri-tribe is superior to any other tribe in the game. Also, the Dutch have one other advantage: Assuming that Iros get thrown out (or we would get them from our first pick), the Dutch are the only agri-civ that starts with Alphabet, thus there is a very good chance for winning the Philosophy race. [pirate]

The alternative is of course selecting two medium-ranked agri-tribes like Sumeria or Maya as the first two choices. But again, who is to say that the other teams aren't thinking the same?

I guess it's fairly save to say that if we'd select Dutch as first choice that would be a fairly save bet to actually get it since there are 8 teams and 7 agricultural tribes which give the Dutch pretty good odds imo.

Anyways, first two are hard, what about the other three picks?
Whomp favours Riders which means China.

While I like the Riders as well, I think I'd prefer the Arabians since they also have 3 movement points but in addition cost 10 shields less and the Arabians have the stronger traits imho.

But Chinese sounds fine as 3rd choice, how about Arabia as 4th and I was thinking Japan as 5th since Samurai are a very strong unit and the traits are o.k. (could be better).

Decisions, decisions... [ponder]

I agree with you on the Arabs over China.
I think everyone in their right mind would select the Iroquois and Mayans. I'd say go
1. Sumeria
2. Dutch
3. Aztec
If we can't get ag I think going fast unit is the key.
4. Arabs
5. Chinese

I like the Japanese UU and the wheel however religious and militaristic seem like such poor trait combos.

Mmh, I think it would be more like everybody would select Iros and Celts. Anyways, the problem is: What if everybody else thinks so, too and in the end nobody or just one other team selects them?

We can't select Aztec as 3rd option since only the first 2 can be agricultural!

And Sumeria? I dunno, the problem is that their UU will get us into trouble since somebody will try to trigger an early GA and I don't think we can afford that.

Well, militaristic certainly sucks (only better than Expansionist and Seafearing), however Religious is a very strong trait imho, especially because of the skipped/reduced anarchy.

Good point on the Sums. Same for the Aztecs and Mayans potentially.
The religious could be useful going from republic to monarchy or vis a vis. How about this then
1. Iroquios (just in case)
2. Dutch (at least a MA GA and philo possibility)
3. Arabs (fast unit in the MA and good other traits)
4. Japanese (same but with mil. trait)
5. Chinese (fast unit in the MA again)

Markstar you may want to tell people on your first post to not read in this thread.

- Now Japan ahead of China? Fine by me, but I thought you preferred the Riders (actually I think I do, too). Btw, Mayans are not so bad when it comes to triggering a GA since you can always build warriors to avoid that.

- I highlighted the "Spoiler". ;) We have to decide if we want two seperate threads (one with a spoiler and one with internal discussions) or simply one thread. Whatever you want, but if you decide that one thread is enough then the SPOILER in the topic should be sufficient imo since everybody ought to know here not to read a spoiler while they are part of the game. In case we want this thread for just us, I can always limit the access for other users (except admins iirc)

- We still have to decide on a name, did you get my email(s)?

Sorry I haven't checked my email in probably a week.
As far as names go, at CFC I am known as one of the idiots. My title says academia fatui or academy of idiots. What were you thinking?

The reason I changed my view on the Japanese is in a human vs. human there seems to be an advantage having the capability to change governments like you said. Not needing horses is an added benefit. I like the riders because I've always had good success generating leaders with them. Really it's just a random thing though.

What are you looking for?

What size?
What Name?
Banner?
Avatar?
What????
What???
What???

Gimme Ideas and requirements/

We are called the The Civant Alliance.
Banner I say yes.
Size? Dunno. How about intimidating size whatever that is.
Avatar? I need a new one for here and Markstar doesn't have one.

Make us the coolest! You are good at that.

I'm going to be away from my creativity computer for a bit so it may be until early next week before I can get to this but I will do this for my orc brethern latest tuesday.

@Markstar ~ any ideas for an avatar?

Thanks Mistfit!!

[sleep] Who? What? Me? [satan]

Aehm, avatar, yes, I know it is about time that I have one. I actually have a few pics that I could use, just never gotten around to actually asking for it. [blush2] Plus I can't make up my mind. I like an animated avatar (especially like akots'), but otoh there are some themes that I would like. [confused]

But thanks for the offer and of course thank you for doing the team logo! [thumbsup]

Actualy Markstar I'm offering my services as an Avatar creator. If you give me some ideas I'll see what I can put together for you

Yes, I know. :) Sorry that I wasn't clear on that. With "asking for it" I meant making a decision what avatar to use and posting it at the "Avatars are here"-thread.

If you are interested you pm me your email address I can send you the pics/avatars that I had in mind.

I hate to be picky, but, it is very hard to tell who's thread is who's for any lurker who has subscribed to all the teams threads. Perhaps you can add a team name to the spoiler title?

Sure, no problem!

Well So far I've come up with a national flag. I used the colors of America and Germany and added in your leader :D
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...ivant_Flag.JPG

[goodjob]

I like it!

That is fantasitc Mistfit!

Alright, civs have been decided and with the Dutch we got our second pick, not bad imho. And since "only" Sumeria and Aztecs were selected in the first round, this means it was probably not even neccessary for us to select Iros in the first round. Oh well, better safe than sorry I guess. So, what does this all mean for us?

Here is the list again:
Team 1 (Markstar + Whomp) - Civ = Dutch
Team 2 (Romeothemonk + Grahamiam + Bed_head7) - Civ = France
Team 3 (Eldakkar + Kemal) - Civ = Sumeria
Team 4 (Beam + Kingreno) - Civ = Ottomans
Team 5 (Barbu1977 + Melifluous) - Civ = China
Team 6 (Kryszctov + Darkness + Banzai) - Civ = Rome
Team 7 (Bathsheba666 + Ville) - Civ = Aztecs
Team 8 (Matrix + Killer) - Civ = Egypt

Obviously we are going to need a strong defense since there a a lot of teams with strong early attack, especially:
- Rome; combined with strong players, this civ is definitely one to be afraid of. [scared]
- Aztec; Agricultural and the naughty warriors, could mean trouble. Somebody needs to trigger their GA
- Egypt; very powerful civ especially early on. Very high threat level.
- Sumeria; not a strong offensive unit, but in the hands of Kemal and Eldakkar I think we need to expect the worst. Here also some team needs to step up and trigger their GA asap.

Furthermore, two other civs beside us start with Alphabet - Team 2 (France) and Team 6 (Rome). Especially France worries me since they have a decent chance of winning the Phil race due to their Industrious trait (-> faster roads -> more commerce), but we should be able to keep up since we will grow faster, I hope.

Now all that needs to be decided is what we build first. I see three options:
- warrior, then granary: station him at home so we can concentrate on building the granary, thus being able to put all commerce into writing
- settler: if there is a second cow/wheat around this might be a valid option -> a second good early city will boost our production and may give us a good advantage
- granary: risky but of course the most profitable since getting a likely settler factory.

Other things to consider:
- we need to explore, since we need Bronze Working asap (protection against other civs)
- ... ?

I like the idea of getting a gran out right away. Our biggest risk is if someone tries to rush us. If that happens we would have to waste some shields but I think we should take that gambit. I also think we should go for philo because of our growth trait. The biggest risk I see there is the lux slider will run high being ag but again worth the shot. Our mming will have to be perfect.

Did some testing (it's been sooo long since I started a Civ game) and it looks like two warriors is the way to go, then either warrior, granary or settler.
- with a 3rd warrior that would mean we can spare the second one for exploring (since we need at least two for defense), then the other two for happiness.
- I prefer granary as well, the problem is that a standard-sized map with 8 players is pretty crowded so we have no idea how close the others are. Otoh with two warriors we should be save
- If done right a settler can be the most beneficial, especially if we have more than two bonus ressouces in the core.

And since we are playing at Emperor level exploring may even give us some techs/units.

OK. I think once we see our start we can start getting a better sense of our plan of attack.

BTW I saw Beam wanted to change names from Sipahi to Milhunters on the main thread.
I was going to say "IF they even get to Sipahis". [lol] But I didn't want to inflame them so early in the game.

:D

First turn is here! [charge]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up..._16 4000BC.jpg

Well, well, looks like a pretty save bet to found the capital right where we are, therefore I suggest founding the city BEFORE moving the worker. What do you think, Whomp?

If nothing else pops up I would move the worker onto the wheat. For building I suggest two warriors first, either one for exploring, one for homeland security or even both for that. Then a second worker might be a good idea before starting a granary because of the extensive forrest we have here.

VERY interesting area we have there:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...16 4000BCb.jpg

That makes the future 10-20 turns pretty clear I guess. Build two warriors (8 turns which is when the captial will also grow), then worker (to finish improvements towards cow more quickly), then settler (to get the second gold hill to make sure we win the Philo run).
After that we can start the granary in the capital and the other one can provide unit support etc..

Looks like due to the extensive forrest it will be quite MM-intensive. I just hope that under some of those forrest-tiles are also some bonus grasslands...[fdevil]

Interestingly there also seems to be the coast in the east which is a good sign (meaning we are not in the middle of the continent). Due to our position that means exploring only needs to be done in 3 direction, which should take place AFTER we have built and secured the second city.

Sweet. We are off and running. I agree with your strategy. We could also get a curragh out to go find some people. Safer and faster than by land. The other nice thing about that gold hill is it's on the same side of the river

Are you of the philosophy that you build roads after finishing an improvment? I saw that Team Wacken in SGOTM7 blew everyone out and they developed land first and then put in roads. I suppose we couldn't do philo sling if we did it that way but I found it interesting.

BTW I am getting my new pc next week so I will be able to view the saves for sure then. I will try to look at it tonight to see if my current pc can pick up that email.

Yes, curragh sounds good at some point, but our foremost concern should be getting our core up and running. I don't even think our first two warriors should be dedicated for anything else than homeland security.

About the roading? Lol - yes, I follow the whole "road-building" philosophy. ;) SGOTM is a whole different ballgame since it is still a human-only game which is pretty predictable to a certain point. But we need the additional commerce and moreover the faster movement between our cities. That way, if we are attacked, we can get units to the front more quickly which will be of vital importance.

Right on. Obviously my experience playing against humans is lacking. I hope you'll be patient with such a noobster.
Do you think there will be much diplomacy? Or is it of the pointy stick version?

I am absolutely convinced that diplomacy will be the deciding factor. If we stick to ourselves, the others will combine against us and we will, under no circumstances, survive a 3vs1 situation, probably not even 2vs1.

Therefore, our top priority needs to be making FRIENDS, not enemies. I see a 2vs2 situation in the middle (2 tribes of each continent combined) or maybe even more. But alone no team will make it here, that's for sure.

So how come you moved to the BG?

Several reasons:
- A cow popped up so that means production (at the beginning) will be more important than growth.
- Working that tile first means next would be the wine -> happiness.
- Goes in the direction of the cattle which should be irrigated.
- 2nd city must be founded on the gold mountain asap -> the road which will connect the 2 cities -> easier to defend etc
With working the wheat first we would have lost several turns because the worker would have to cross the river.

...

Alright, our first warrior will be done next turn -> are we going to explore a little up the river or leave it at home? I suggest going up the river 4 or 5 tiles but then getting back.

Also, our built order is going to be essential for the philo run (and of course everything else). It is rather obvious that we have to build a setter before building a granary, otherwise the philo run will most certainly be lost. Also, we must consider building a worker before starting the granary. Depending on when (and if) we build it, the longer we will need to research. BUT, we will also greatly benefit from the workers actions in the long run.
Basically I see two options:
1) Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Granary-Worker-...
2) Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Worker-Granary-...

I leaning more towards 2) since even though research might be a tad slower (one less citizen that can create commerce) but production will be increased. Also, it seems we need A LOT of workers to chop down the forrest asap to find out if there are and bonus grassland underneath.

I agree with #2 but I haven't counted out the steps about the timing for the gran.
One of the benefits of ag is our recovery from that strategy.
Check my math...
1. BG mine (6) and road (3) move (1)
2. Irrigate and road the the cow (4 and 3) move (1)
3. Irrigate and road the wines (4 and 3) move (1)
4. cross the river(1) then irrigate and road the plains (4 and 3) move (1)
Chop?
Does that math work?

We don't want to irrigate the wine since we would not get a bonus from that until we are out of Despotism. ;) So I would just build the road first and then move on to the cow right away. And after that I'd probably mine the wine, then chop some forrest to speed up the granary that we have started by then. Also, our second city will only need one tile (wine) for the time being, I suggest something like warrior-> third worker (city back to 1) -> warrior (exploring) -> granary (with help from worker). Or instead of the granary we build more warriors/workers to support our growing empire.

My main concern at the moment is our neighbours - we don't know how close they are or what techs they have that we might want to trade. Two techs we definitely need: WC and more importantly BW since a good defense against any attackers is crucial for our survival. Once we can build Spearmen, rushing units via forrest chopping is much more effective. And we will need all the defense we can get if we have Egypt, Aztecs or even worse Rome as our neighbours. [scared]

Oh, and I almost forgot: VERY interesting is that Team Metal apparently has NOT founded their capital on the gold mountain since they did not found their capital right away. [eek] I remember I did that in a PBEM once but then realized that I do get the gold bonus and decided to move back again to my original spot. [rolleyes] I wonder what their reasoning for that move was. [scratch]

Mmh, the more I think about it the more I am convinced that Republic might not be the way to go for us. There will just be too many units and who knows how soon/long we are going to be at war.

We need an ally, soon. [love2]

Chop = cutting down the forrest.

And yes, that seems about right. :)

Warrior is built! I moved it west since we should have enough time to explore the river a little bit before expecting any visitors.

Cool. Maybe we'll find a mountain we can climb.

Just did some more testing and I guess moving the worker to work on the BG first wasn't the best choice after all. Sorry Whomp for making that rash decision! :(

I'm in a bit of a quandry.
Irrigate wheat, road
cross the river and mine 2nd BG, road
then if we mine the wines, we can't get water to the forest plains SW, but would have a shield powerhouse in the capital.
Then we can irrigate the cow.
What are you thinking the worker actions should be?

Next turn was (finally) in. Moved the warrior north which only uncovered more forrest. [:l]

3600 BC:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...148_3600BC.jpg
39.6KB

Lots of forest but at least we got some desert. [:p] We wWill grow and build warrior next turn, same as in another important game that is going on right now we will lose some shields but will make up for it when there is a second worker that can do some chopping. ;)

Kemal and Eldakkar already grew, guess that means they either have cow nearby or, more likely, irrigated the wheat. *sigh* ... probably should have done that as well. But we'll be alright.