Super fast 16+ PBEM DG? Or: "The more the faster!"
 

Hi everyone!
Maybe you have noticed my increased activity for the past days - well, I had one of my final university tests Monday and now should have a little more free time I hope. [cool]

Anyways, in one of the endless hours of waiting for the 8 player game I had the idea to start a (last) grand game.

The problem is (as you all know) that with 8 players the probability of a person being on holiday, busy or whatever are pretty high, so getting even one turn a week is rather fast.

Now I was thinking (don't know if it has been done before) that we could start a mixture of the ISDG, the SG and the "normal" PBEM:
- Every "player" actually consists of 2 (or more) people who want to play together and who have to play the turn within, let's say, 24 hours.
- There is an admin who oversees that the game keeps going.
For example, if one group doesn't play within the next 24 hours, the admin plays the turn by just hitting "enter"). That means the admin either keeps track of the turns, sees that a group is stalling or he is contacted by another group who is looks at the turn tracker and finds that the game is not moving. That way the admin-job is not too much work since keeping track of a game is quite some work.
- How each group plays is up to them;
For example I can imagine a SG principle where each player is in charge for a couple of turns (but the others watch keep track as well of course), or one main player with one or two backup-players who jump in if the main player can't play. Also interesting might be a "receive-first-play-first" style where the person who checks his email first is playing the turn. Of course there are many more options - as I said, it's up to the group.

I was thinking about posting this at CFC and CGN as well since we might have trouble finding enough people here. Plus, it might spice things up a little. [mwaha]

I would volunteer to keep track of the groups and maybe even make a timetable similar to the ones I made for the "Fair Starts" game.
Talking of fair starts, I would prefer balanced starts or maybe even a totally balanced map. Since (to my limited knowledge about map making) it is pretty hard to make an ABSOLUTE fair map I'd offer to make it and post it so that everyone knows about it. But of course I'd prefer an unknown map as well so we'd need someone to make the map. ;)

Anybody interested???

P.S.: Of course ideas/improvements/comments are always welcome!!! [^]

Edit: Alright, here a preliminary (!) list, just tell me which team you want to be on and I'll edit i.
It might be a good idea to talk to the members before joining an empty group (otherwise everybody would want to play with Kemal and anarres, I guess [smokin]).

I'll wait for everybody to post (or pm me) which team they want to be on (or if they want to start a new one). Note that it is NO PROBLEM to start a new team even if you only have a limited amount of time since all you need is somebody who complements you (for example, if you can't play on weekends it might be a good idea to have at least one guy on board who can).

[The Civant Alliance] - civantalliance_ AT_gmx.net (7th)
- Markstar (can play 24/7 - literally [mischief])
- Whomp (busy until september)

[Engineer] - mattjakeTAgwtcTODnet; jdmcbrTAgmailTODcom; gramiamTAgmailTODcom (1st)
- romeothemonk
- grahamiam
- bed_head7 (busy right now)

[Brotherhood of Nod] - kemal_ AT_cqp.nl (3rd)
- Eldakkar
- Kemal

[Milfhunters] - beamATciv3duelzoneDOTcom (5th)
- Beam
- Kingreno

[A-team] - stevebroad2002_ AT_hotmail.com; mcks01_AT_hotmail_DOT_COM (4th)
- barbu1977
- Melifluous

[Gremlins] - teamgremlins_ AT_yahoo.com (6th)
- kryszcztov
- Darkness
- Banzai

[Team Metal] - teammetal at gmail dot com (8th)
- bathsheba666 (can play once at least once a day)
- Ville

[Killers] - LtKillerM_ AT_civ3duelzone.com; civ3_ AT_straland.com (2nd)
- Matrix
- Lt. Killer M
- Classical Hero

I would offer to make a map, and much more I would love to participate, but I will be gone for almost three weeks soon.

great idea!


btw: where IS 8player?

Very interesting idea!

I'd like to participate, but I must admit that I will be gone/busy from now until august, so anyone who would team up with me should be prepared to play the bulk of the turns until then...

Well, that's the beauty of it ... it doesn't matter for how long you are gone since you should always have backup. :)

i would like to sign-up for this. i'm having mixed experience with 6 player pbems. Pound was going well till KR's baby, but another over at 'Poly is sooooooo slow (10 turns in about 2 months :( ) I have no idea what is going on turn-to-turn. this idea would ensure at least a decent pace :)

Actually, according to economic theory more people does not make the game faster

to make a pbem, you need the following inputs:
a biq to play
players to participate.

Now, since the biq is constant, you would actually have diminishing returns from adding more and more players, as the marginal product of players would decline (the math is a two factor product function. The first derivative of the biq is 0 since it is a constant, the first derivative of players is positive, but the second derivative of players is negative since the biq is a constant.


HAH!

I don't think your approach is applicable here, Paalikles since the number of players is not a simple variable in this equation (because, for example, two players don't make the game twice as fast - but that is not even the goal here).

From what I can tell the problem with most PBEMs is not that ppl don't want to play or totally lose interest, it's more about RL-issues interfering (holydays, family, job). If you can fill these gaps with backup players (for example), the game speed WILL increase -> and the higher the turn output per week is the higher is the interest in the game.

I would like to join Markstar. I will be in and out over the next three months but with a teammate I think it would work. To add to the speed maybe you could do some locked alliances too.

I would like to play.

I'll be around most of the summer (except for a couple of weekends)

Hehe. I was only joking man. Sorry if it wasnt clear to you :)

No, I got it. ;)

But believe it or not, you had a valid point and I have been thinking about if this would really work (but I think it actually will). :)

This could also be slowed down by discussion between teams, but i guess the ISDG goes faster than the 8 player and DDPP so you might have a point there markstar. Unfortunately atm, my time is so limited i certainly dont have time to discuss turns with other players let alone be a reliable day to day player.

I am willing to give this a go. Possibly be teamed with Grahamiam or Paal.

I like this idea :)

I would like to participate and make a team with Kemal. We will not be away this summer at the same time, so we can guarantee fast turn play.

OMG, the civbrothers in union! [eek]

Hey, I didnt sign up [crazyeye]

@digger760: Well, as I've said...it doesn't really matter how much time you have since there always should be others who can jump in any time. So don't let that stop you (but of course I realize there are valid reasons not wanting to join ;)).

For my team I have a democratic structure in mind with free discussions on what to do next and then one primary turn player (that'd be me, I guess. [blush]) but with the others also free to play the turn of course. [crazyeye]

So Whomp, if you are o.k. with that I'd love to have you on my team. [goodjob]

Sounds good Markstar!

Markstar just so you're aware it will be an on/off thing with me this summer but not 24/7. Weekends will be the tough times.

Mmmh, nice idea. I thought you were thinking of another simultaneous moves weekend. [crazyeye] I have one question : you say 8 players will make the game slow, then I thought you would speak of simulatenous moves, and we all know Civ4 is coming now, but then you end up with a regular PBEM. [hmm] I'm not sure that "receive-first-play-first" will increase the pace by much, but you'll see.

I'm not sure now. This reminds me of Beam's in November, and that is the only reason I'd like to take part in it. :) The cons are :
- not interested in Civ as much as I was before ;
- Civ4 on the way, time to have a rest ?
- do other things in RL ;
- try to lower my presence here for a while...

So, put me in the reserve list, please. If Darkness is OK, I'd team up with him again ! [cool] Up to you, Darkie. Or I could team up with someone I've never played with (interesting to learn about the dude). My time isn't that limited, but I'd rather have someone who can play a lot, I'd like to be teammate #2... :)

[cry] We love you man [love] Dont lower anything.

I guess you have heard about this program called social life, that Rik has been talking about. Hmm. I want to download that too [crazyeye]

Ok, I am feverish and emotional. I ll shut up now

Eldakkar is Kemal?

Not really a sign up until any more of my pbems end soon. Which won't happen..

@Krys: Nooo, the simultaneous-moves game would of course come IN ADDITION to this one. [coool]

I'm doing one with Matrix tomorrow and after that I'll see to it that I start another thread for a 4+ sim game. But one thing after another. ;)

Eldakkar is Kemal. The eternal question.

Actually, I think they are brothers.

Markstar, sorry to spam your thread [mischief]

Sounds like fun to me. I will out unable to play for the next couple of weeks, and after that will be available at all times, as far as I know. No real preference on partner.

We need to finish the other one which is still not finished.

missed this earlier :) sounds good to me

Beam asked me to team up and I accepted. This is one turn per 2 weeks right?[mischief]

@akots: Yes, we can finish that one before we start over. But since I blew my strategy with my wrong-wonder-fiasco [aargh] we have to talk about the slack we were cutting you. ;)

Anyways, I've been doing some more thinking on the map setting etc. and I would REALLY like to have a map similar to the fair starts game (spoiler is in my forum). The point is simple:
This is no quick 1on1, there are a lot of people (with a lof of skill [blink] [crazyeye]) involved and at this level it has a lot to do with who has the better position (like in between two enemies, etc).
Furthermore, what about modding the game so that 2 or more teams can have the save tribe? I think it'd be unfair to deny anyone the Iros. [coool].
But also turning off civ traits altogether sounds good, as well as letting each team decide which traits and UU they want to have (even though that'd be a little extreme imho). [medic]

As usual, input is welcome! [sleep]

About modding, KR and me can mod a lot in (can be done seperately from the map). Recommended to Keep It Simple Stupid!

Yep, I agree that we ought to keep it simple. I just suggested it so that nobody fights over a certain tribe.

Still waiting for some input on the map settings, I'm a little surprised that there is no outrage about me proposing totally even continents...or maybe it has gone unnoticed? [groucho]

I expected a little more of [punch], [nono] and [rant] over the matter...

Most if not all maps for group games have been either highly balanced or identical (Swimming Pool, 2x2x2x2, 2 maps for on-line games) and I've only read positive comments so it looks like the way to go. I'd personally prefer highly balanced, not identical but that's the most elaborous type of map we can ask for.

Continents sounds good to me. Enable early contact always is the key parameter for continent maps, would be nice to have some input on that.

Just an idea about Civchoice: let every team choose the Civ they want to play with, if there are any doubles we can easily solve that in the editor. Nice addition: every team can choose a 3rd trait?

All thoughts and subject to discussion of course. :)

With 4 teams in place and 6 ppl on the list it might not be neccesary to go to other fora.

I think identical continents are boring. [tongue] (There he comes again. [rolleyes])

Nevertheless I'd like to participate as well. :) I don't care with whom I end up, but I prefer people I know well (e.g. by having met them in real life). ;)

The other thing is that you can have five choices for civs, then do a lottery pick, to see who picks first.
Example
Team Engineer (G-man and I)
1. Sumeria
2. Iro
3. Greece
4. Babs
5. Celts
Team Markstar
1. Sumeria
2. Japan
3. China
4. Portugal
5. America

Markstar's team gets first pick through a random drawing, pulls Sumeria. Engineer goes second gets Iro. A third team would be next and get the highest availible civ on their list.

I also do not like identical continents.

Posting to confirm my participation in this, sounds like a good idea indeed. :)

However, I'd personally wouldn't like the game to be modded much, besides the mandatory SoZ issues that every game has to be modded for. So I'd like for no 3rd traits nor double civs etc. That said, I agree that of course there needs to be some form of solution for double-choices, in the swimming pool it was done via a coinflip but as it turned out, that method sucks. [:p]

But how about this:
Maybe double chosen civs should be out of the game altogether, where teams that double are forced to make a new choice excluding the doubled civs as well as the civs that weren't doubled but already picked by other teams in the first round? Makes initial choice of civ some sort of strategic decision already, I suppose... though it could lead to backdoor politics before the game start too. [hmm]

Also, I'm in favour of either continents or archi type map, one landmass is imo not well suited for games with so many civs participating.

A thought regarding picking civs. Since there are many high level players here maybe a handicap could be created. Each of us vote by PM the 1st to 16th rated player(IE I'm the 16th best player [lol]). The lowest total goes last on picking a civ and the highest total goes first.

Also, wouldn't archs be more interesting because it would allow for teams to
A. develop their island
B. Require a navy and
C.Force teams to really think out any attack plan so you don't get back doored with forces away from home.

imho, random arch maps with 60% ocean generate the most interesting landmasses. mapmaker could tweak resources and a few tiles to get it more even, but leave it mostly random.

Archie maps usually see little action early game, take the Swimming Pool (glad it is moving at good speed again :)) as prime example. 8 players, one war afaik. In a years time. It is an enjoyable game btw, don't misunderstand.

On a sidenote: there are 4 complete teams and 7 more players listed. Without any intent to be managing a process I see 3 more complete teams and just 1 vacancy. Or am I missing something?

well, we could make it a small map with 8 players, right? that would force the action a little sooner :)

- Well, I must say I don't like the throw-out-civs-that-were-selected-twice approach. There are only 7 agricultural civs there, ergo at least one team ends up without it and I don't think that's really fair. An alternative would also be of course not to include agricultural civs. [dunno]

- About continents/islands: I'm fine with them being not identical or whatever, but I surely don't want one team having to cope with jungle (like CGN, but at least they got a great starting position) while other teams have plenty of cows around (and the surrounding terrain is much more important in C3C than it was in PTW).

How about a poll on these issues? (just an idea)

- Matrix, is it possible to use your turn tracker for the game? Would it be able to send an email to several recipients at the same time?

- Who is going to make the map? I don't want anybody not to play because of other responsibilites (other than RL of course). Of course there is always the option to reveal the map to everyone but I don't see this happening. [mischief]

- While I certainly like the idea of being able to develop your island, there is one thing: It pretty eliminates the option of an early land war. Imho there are more options with a few neighbours around but I DO NOT have a problem with an archipelago.
Even a small map sound alright to me at this point (sort of a test run) if that's what you guys want.

- About posting at CFC/CGN: I contacted miccofl and Kuningas, miccofl is into Pirates! right now and waiting for Civ4 and I havn't hear from Kuningas (who wanted revenge after the last Fair Starts). But while we only need one more person to make the 16, I'd feel much more comfortable with filling up the teams (like 3 per team), especially since most of the guys not yet assigned have only a limited amount of time right now.
Of course if you guys want to keep it at two players per team that'd be alright, too. But if there are no objections I will post it tomorrow at around noon.

- I feel uncomfortable just assigning people to teams and would really feel much more comfortable if you guys could pick teams or if already established teams could invite players.

There have been several posts while I was writing this so sorry if it's a little messed up. [blush]