The Tower of Babel - Open Thread
 

The game has started at last ! It would be nice to find a fitting name for this game, instead of "TAM PBEM". Any idea welcome.

We should also name our saves differently. I propose : "[name_of_game]-[number_of_turn][letter_of_roster]". For example : "TAMSuperPBEM-001a" would be Justus II's next save (since this one is turn 0). Letters would go from "a" to "e". OK for everyone ?

I also tested the number of beakers, and it corresponds to what it should be : thanks Justus II for setting this up perfectly. [thumbsup]

BTW Justus II, could you post here some essential info about the beginning of the game, like :
- impassable terrain for what units ;
- unsettlable terrain ;
- possible changes in content people in Demi-God ;
- other things I can't think of now...
I already know workers cost 20 shields, and settlers cost <s>40 shields</s> 50 shields [eek] and require 3 citizens !! [eek] I also saw that marsh is impassable for our first units, and desert is unsettlable (making my agr trait less useful, but hey, if it is as strong as in the epic game... :D ).

We should also start a roster thread, like we did for the Swimming Pool, are you for that ? Or do you only want to use Matrix's roster program ?

EDIT : Justus II, is there a sheet for techs' values ? We can't know what is the value for each tech, that could help us to trade, even if between humans we're not talking about cents... [blush]

I would prefer turn tracker - I think it is far superior to anything you can do in a forum.

I have been playing a bit today (solo).

Why do cities flip like thatr? No other civ near, no foreign citizens: WHAM! FLIP!

Weird....

Hmm...I played some Solo moves too, but had no flip.

OK, I'll try to answer what I can. The spreadsheet (I've uploaded it again below) lists what terrain is unsettleable by the lines for City (yes/no) and colony. Cities cannot be built in Desert, Tundra, Mountain, Forest, Swamp. Colonies can be built in all but Swamp and Marsh. Most units ARE considered wheeled in this mod, so only a select few units can enter Mountains, Swamp, or Marsh. Those that can are basically the archer-type line of units and workers, (and barbs), they are all denoted on the TAM-Stats page with the letter M in the abilities column. A few UU's also have the ability, like Pelatasts, Dacians, may be others.

Note: Swamps/Marsh cannot be cleared until a late tech (Architecture - Second Era), so it will be a while before you can access those. Also, note that Cities CAN be built in Marsh, but settlers can't enter, so you would have to have a worker enter, build a road, then move the settler in to settle. (Awkward, but it simulates the difficulties in settling those areas).

As for your Desert/Agri mention, not only can you not settle them, but Desert can't be irrigated either. (It can be mined or roaded). This was intentional, as the AI otherwise floods the desert, and is offset by having multiple Oasis and plains tiles along the edge of the desert (a mined Oasis is a pretty good tile).

Content citizens should be the same as normal Demigod. Be aware that this map has less than 8 luxuries available, IIRC, and they are scattered, so it's unlikely for any one civ to access more than 3-4. Also, there are no improvements that multiply the luxuries effect (like the standard market), except for the Nubians who aren't in this game, and I think there may be a wonder with that effect. So happiness in general is a little scarcer, but city sizes are smaller as well.

If you don't already know, city sizes are:
Town: 1-4, City:5-8, Metro:9+. Aquaducts come with Architecture (early 2nd age), Metros with Bath House (Medicine), 3rd Age. So founding on fresh water is even more vital, building settlers that take 3 citizens out of towns capped at size 4 is tough!! (But it does limit the AI's REX tendencies as well).

As for Stapel's comment on city flips, the main cause of that is the lack of early culture. Other than the Palace, most civs will have little or no early culture until the end of the 1st Age (Temples), and they are difficult and expensive (require cult site first). Meanwhile, Wonders (AI-specific and Great) generate a TON of culture (most are 10cpt, and at 50yrs/turn double quickly), so if one civ builds an early wonder or 2, they can really rack up cultural pressure quickly. Again, that was an intentional decision of Thamis, he wanted to emphasize the importance of early wonders.

Any other questions, let me know, I will be away tomorrow during the day, but will be back by evening. I hope everyone has fun!

OK, thanks Justus II ! [thumbsup] Some remarks about your answers...

Stapel told me on MSN that he faced situations where there shouldn't be any possibility of a culture flip, according to Civ rules (seen in anarres's utility). Can you explain this ? And Stapel can you describe precisely what you encoutered ? From what I understood, Stapel had no foreigners in the cities, and no neighbours around, so there shouldn't have been a way for a flip to occur.

Can someone explain me the difference between marsh and swamp in the real world ? I'd like to know, so as to differenciate them better when I play. Noted for the terrain-abilities of the units, it will help us to not do stupid mistakes in the beginning.

I agree with your remarks about the AIs settling everywhere, and know we had to do something about it. I bet I'll have to forget about placing fair cities to the south of Babylon, in the desert... And too bad we can't irrigate the desert, there is no clear distinction between desert and flood plain. But it is to be noted that, if I'm not mistaken, hills can be either irrigated or mined (less effectively), like in the good Civ2 days. I haven't seen any oasis along the Euphrates, when I explored a little before this game (but I won't again, I want some surprise !), I hope there are some, oasis give 4 more food !!! An oasis on an irrigated flood plain is... 8 food !! [eek]

Today I saw that a city is 5-8 citizens, and a metro is 9+ citizens... Scary. Your remark about pumping settlers out of 4-pop cities ONLY is true : tough.

IIRC, Kolchian wonder also multiplies the luxury rate in a city where it is built which is somewhat undocumented. Also, Raiders can enter mountains but not sure if they are available to any civs you play.

What is extremely annoying regarding non-settling in the desert is that when there appears a barbarian camp (near Saba or north of Caspian sea, all free units from all countries go there and sign RoP with each other. This actually results in the fact that not-so-phony wars happen with very remote opponents. For example, Nubia declared on me (Colchis) and in about 15 turns there appeared with a huge stack of about 50 Nubian units. That has been a bit unexpected. Also, these "free AI units" constantly move back and forth since the desert around Massagetae is large and once a camp is dispersed, they turn back and when a new one appears, they start to go there again. This has been extremely annoying. But you wont see these kinds of things probably in your map.

Combat system has huge pecularities as well. Just need a decent calculator to evaluate the chances properly but I'm not sure about the defence bonuses since there might be a few errors in the civilopedia about them. Also, retreat ability is somewhat tweaked due to that large number of hit points. Another feature is that sometimes stronger units have fewere hit points and are becoming actually weaker after upgrade because most of them are regulars. For example, Broadswordsmen have attack of 8 but regulars start 5 hp iirc whereas Raiders (upgraded units) have 4hp for regulars and attack 10 which makes them basically even in attacking chances. But Raiders can enslave (this auxilliary warriors are great for sacrifice and increase in culture since each brings 60 culture and slave brings only 40 culture) and enter impassable terrain. Same goes for Elephants which have 3 hit points. This is not documented in civilopedia at all unfortunately.

Also, many wonders depend on government type. For example Pyramids. They need Theocracy and after you revolt from Theocracy they just disappear. [sad] Never tried to revolt back, may be the wonders will reappear.

But this is my limited experience on a large size default map with only one game played so far as Kolchis. Won 20K cultural victory with the help of few wonders by massive sacrificing.

This is a very complicated issue with granaries in cities on the river. Should they be built or not? Actually, benefit from Granaries is somewhat limited in any case since double food is required to grow from size 4 to size 8. But this might actually make granaries twice as important imo. And then size 8 can drop to size 5 after building the settler still keeping the second half of the food bin full. But with cities not on the river, they can be pretty much useless since there are no "settler factories" or "worker pumps" in this scenario.

I indeed encountered 3 (THREE) flips without having any tiles under AI influence, AND without having foreign citizens.

I have more questions:
-Why can't I trade hellinistic techs?
-How can I upgrade units?
-Why do I have a 1cpt library for several turns, yet 0 culture in this city (a conquered city, it has two foreigners, ans 1 homie).

All should always use the turn tracker. It is the only way to keep track of the save.

The naming convention which is used now is good IMO.

This is a great thread, I already learned some new things reading this thread. :)

this is the reason. You are still in a Xenophobic government and gain no culture in foreigner dominated cities.

Btw, when does the save come around?

[quote]quote:Originally posted by grs

Ehh..., check the turn tracker for it's location!

@Stapel:

First level techs in Hellenistic age are not tradeable but subsequent techs can be traded once AI knows the first level techs. But you can get them all from the Great Library (or you can steal them). This is to limit exploitation of scientific AIs by a human player apparently.

Unit upgrades can be done in a city with Barracks which are only in your capital prior to Standing Military tech late in the Imperial Age. Also, there are a few resource requirements and these resources have to be hooked up as well.

And Monarchy is indeed Xenophobic.

Regarding flips: Are you sure there is no overlap with AI? You borders don't have to expand to have an overlap. If the 21 city tiles of your city overlap even a single tile with 21 tiles of the AI city, your city can flip.

Even with a 2-2 pop, culture doesn't count.
Appearently, you really need a majority.

Hmmm, I don't have save....

I can't reproduce it.....
So far, I can hope it indeed has a tiel covered.

Somewhere between bayou :)

Also, watch what you build, as the Slave Market has a -1 culture/turn, so it subtracts one. Culture won't go negative, but if you build only a temple, they cancel out and won't expand, at least until the temple hits 1,000 years and doubles. (Actually, I don't know if the -1 doubles to -2, in which case it still wouldn't expand.) I only build slave buildings in cities that have already expanded at least once.

NM, I found Turn Tracker, so turn is sent.

I'm not sure as of how culture doubles in this mod. It is a bit more complicated than it is in the simple non-modded game probably because of some confusion with the dates. Sometimes it is doubled sometimes it is not. For some small wonders it failed to double and even for some great wonders but I'm not sure. [confused]

Actually, best way of expanding the border is through sacrificing captured/traded workers. May be rushing a a settler first to get rid of the foreigners at size 4 bringing it to size 1, then growing to size 3 and then it is possible to gain local culture via sacrifice. It is substantially more rapid than building cult site (unless you have Statue of Zeus or playing Britons) then temple and waiting 10 turns especially in corrupt cities.

I can build railroads!

Is that correct?

Ah, never mind: imperial roads.....

Somebody notice something annoying in this list?

12-01-2005 22:48:04 - ERIKK - 7850BC / 3
12-01-2005 20:16:47 - grs - 7850BC
12-01-2005 09:52:57 - Stapel - 3
12-01-2005 01:48:01 - Justus II - 7850 BC
11-01-2005 20:25:30 - ERIKK - 7900BC
11-01-2005 19:51:04 - grs - 7900BC
11-01-2005 09:44:55 - Stapel - 7900BC
11-01-2005 04:47:01 - Justus II - 7900BC
10-01-2005 19:55:55 - ERIKK - 7950
10-01-2005 19:20:30 - grs - 7950BC
10-01-2005 12:26:40 - Stapel - 7950BC
10-01-2005 02:59:02 - Justus II - 7950BC
09-01-2005 17:11:48 - ERIKK - 8000bc
08-01-2005 14:50:20 - grs - 8000BC
08-01-2005 12:14:43 - Stapel - 8000BC

I do! ;)

The font is not the one you like ? ;)
You don't know which of the first two numbers is the day, and which one is the month ? [mischief]
I'm not there ? [crazyeye]

Well as it gets around that fast and we only have one resister I guess it wont flip away from us.

Great! You guys got my drift! ;)

I had a dream. [lol]

I'm coming up with a name for this PBEM, hope you like it : "Tower of Babel". OK, it's a bit in my favour, but it is rather central and well known, eh ? It could replace this neutral thing we're using now... The Tower of Babel was built so that Man could reach God and perfection, but God punished Man and divided his kingdom into many languages, like English, French, German and Dutch. [groucho] God existing or not, maybe this Tower of Babel was in fact Babelon's Hanging Gardens ? [hmm]

What do you think ? :)

Due to my new job, I will be in Virginia for the next two weeks attending training, learning to be a Human Resources Manager for the military. I will have internet access, but I can't install Civ on my government laptop, so I won't be able to play while I'm gone. However, I have asked Akots (since he had been following the thread earlier) if he would fill in for me, and he agreed. Since it's still early, one city and all, it shouldn't make too much difference, but I want to be sure it's OK with everyone here. I leave on Sunday, and will return on 4 February. I guess we would have to see if Matrix can update the TurnTracker to Akots' address during those dates as well. Let me know if anyone has any problems, otherwise I will plan on Akots filling in for me during my absence. Thanks!

No problem, Justus II ! akots is now aware of what this mod entails, much more than me and others, so you shouldn't be spoiled to give him your Minoan city of Knossos. The only requirement I have is for akots to not have read any spoiler (but I don't think there are some anyway...).

Apart from that, good luck for your job. [goodjob] Recruit well more than much ! [lol] [mischief]

Did not read anything and ready for duty.

Great, can you PM me your email where I should sent the save?

Great. I will still be able to play today and tomorrow's turns (21-22 JAN), but then Akots can start with the following one. Thanks again for your understanding.

[bump] is this one dead?

Maybe I should sent my last save to akots... AFAIK I had - after the one I sent some days ago -
one more turn to Justus before swapping to Akots!

Hmm...Stapel should already have the save from Justus; he said he played last save and turn tracker shows it was sent to Stapel.

Ahh...

Stapel offline Dedicated 988 20 Jan 2005 24 Mar 2003 Netherlands 21 Jan 2005

Last post 20-1
Last online 21-1

I guess he is on holiday too...

I know from the 2x4 that Stapel is on holiday sceduled to arrive home next weekend.

Stapel didn't tell me of any holiday plan, or maybe I'm just dreaming... So that's why 3 games out of the 6 I'm currently in are stopped at the moment... [mischief] Last night I saw he hadn't been online for a few days, but thought it was just a great weekend. I even thought of this at lunch half an hour ago...

Kingreno, are you sure Stapel is back next weekend only ?

well, don't pin me down on it be he told me he'd be skiing for the entire week. Usually that is Friday evening till Sunday the next week.

So noone from the TAM game knew he went away for a week either. As Justus announced his awaytime
very politely and got an substitue Stapel just disappeares. Justus' substitute will have no work
to do as Stapels is gone for the week.

Not very nice of Stapel! [mad]

Shit, I was thinking Akots (I informed him) was in this game too :( . That was quite dumb. Me very sorry, I'll be back to play civ sunday or monday.