He is not supposed to have any tech they don't have.

I decided getting writing first can make such an important difference, i might even give up on some growth in the later stage of my writing research if that will speed up the research.
Getting writing first should enable me to get the AI's technologies, the gold and if i gift it to each and every AI (met them all but 1 now), i have gozpel locked out of trading.
If he gets it first, he sure will be smart enough to lock me out.

Although due to the failed trading plan and 1 micromanagement error i am probably a turn, maybe 2 behind on research, I do think my research should be somewhat better than Gozpel's. I have a very dense city placement that allows me the first 5 cities all on a river and very close to the capital for extra commerce and low corruption. Gozpels faster growing score indicates a less dense city placement, and thus he might have less river use and greater distances to capital.

Hi WOA (too lazy to write it all)

Interesting to see someone trying something slightly different than what the seasoned players here do. I ve just scimmed through some of your posts in this here spoiler so far, but it seems you take a different approach than what other pbem players do.

I suppose it is single player influence that guides your decisions. But I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Just dont underestimate gozpel


And dont go building any of them temples ;)

What am i doing so different ?

I don't think I've ever seen a player go 0% for alpha like you did in a PBEM. Very interesting strategy and I like it, personally. I think most PBEMers have learned to build more military than they ordinarily would but with deity AI in between this looks like there won't be a showdown till late MA's. It would seem that ROP's will be critical in this game.

Whomp answered it for me. I also like how you argue in your posts. Must be because people here have tended to do things in more or less the same way (read enough spoilers and you start to see general patterns)

Not that I want to say that pbemers here are unoriginal...

The details in your writeup are good imo. You benefit from your SG background. Makes things easy to follow (even for st00pid players like me).

I've tried that in a game against Anarres but failed miserably not only with alpha but overall. Again, he was playing as Iro and I was Japan, so that failure was rather expected.

To the second point: all it takes is a military alliance with one AI early in the game. Like on turn 25 or 30 or even 40. It can be rather lethal because on Deity pangea map, one military alliance usually means that you are immediately dogpiled with all other AIs. They do come with slow units mostly though but it is hard to predict and depends on whether they can hook up the resources. IMHO, the game might essentially end with knights and cavalry would be just a finishing touch.

To the third point, iirc, I've been RoP raped in that game by AI 5 or 6 times and lost a few cities. So, it is a double-edged sword.

But really, my experienced on a Deity Pangea map is limited to only a single game against Anarres and the starting conditions were hardly in my favor. I'd say it was a relatively large handicap. Although, I have not lost yet. [evil]

In this game, the setup might be more balanced. It is hard to predict what is going to happen.

*Last question removed because i found out myself

This is what it looks like now. I initially planned a city on the white dot, but almost unfortunately, it was a BG, so again my placement gets screwed up and becomes tighter due to a BG overdose :)
The red dots should be no problem, the blue is less important and i might not get there before the AI closes me in.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...7_untitled.JPG
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I have a tight core, it was build fast deu to short walking distancs and not wasting time on other builds and all 5 towns are on river.
The northern 2 towns will both build a settler after this warrior, making 4 cities producing a settler and one building a worker (it will build 2 workers in row) This causes 4 of my cities to grow and be size 2 soon.
All these things should benefit my writing research, i hope it will be enough to get me writing first.
After writing however, my settlers will complete and the towns become size 1 again. So i am not too sure yet if my research will be good then for philosophy. That however is a problem i will look into later.

I am still not sure if i should go for republic or monarchy. Republic might get problematic if your opponent simply never gives you peace. What is the standard in PBEM ?

Turn 42, 4 turns later than the picture in last post.

The cost to research writing suddenly dropped drastically, i have 4 turns remaining on it now (worth 88g). I inspect the AI's and see a bunch of them have it.
I take the cheapest offer and buy it for 43g + 2gpt.
I am able to retrade it for all the different starting techs, Horseback Riding, Iron Working and Mysticism. All AI's and I now have the same tech's, only half the AI's have math as well.
Unfortunately, i have not been able to get back my previously payed gold since this is in hands of a tech leading AI.
I have gotten 19 gold in trade, so i can pay those 2gpt for 9 turns without harming my research, probably just enough to get Philosophy.

I hope Gozpel has been researching alphabet and Writing as well. The fact that most AI's have gold in stock makes me believe Gozpel is not the one who spread Writing between them.
He can't have been able to trade alphabet, so if he has researched this way, he has had no trading opportunities yet, and he won't have any before he researches a new tech either.

4 luxuries in your land. :)

Ye, that is nice, but no doubt Gozpel will have 4 as well, so it doesn't really matter :)

I am kinda worried about my scouting warrior. As you can see he moved a bit southward in the centre of the map, but now a few turns later, he found coast there. Expecting the map to be symetrical somehow, Goz could either be on the northwest or southwest. It better be southwest :)
Of course, that is a minor worry compared to the research worries. I just fear Gozpel researching Literacy instead of Philosophy and the AI beating me to Philo.
It took me about an hour to make the decision between Philo and Literature, and i still aint sure. :(
On the other hand, if i succeed getting philo first, Goz is gonna be "drawing dead" as we say it in poker :D. So maybe the glass is half full.

Be realistic: The glass is not half filled, nor half emptied; There's 50% to much glass for your drink ! [assw]

In PBEM's where you are only against 1 player, peace is almost never re-instated. So I would steer clear of republic unless you can prevent WW (or coutner-act it's effects) for a while. Once WW hits you'll be stuck with it the rest of the gmae most likely

In most games that will last to the end of the MA (Players far away), players normaly choose Rep. The cases that increase WW are not seen often (city razedor unit in teritory).

Greetings Wacken, this sounds like a great game in the making, and I look forward to following your progress. [charge]

I have absolutely no experience of PBEM and am amazed that anyone can finish these games. Your start sounds good though. I can't believe you will have been set up with a map where something horrid will happen in the very early game so playing more or less like a single player game sounds OK. It does seem that with the help of deity AI, if you can get to philo first you can drop the other human player into a very deep tech hole, and possibly a very unpleasant war to boot. From that point of view it might be best if neither of you get it.

Turn 53:

I have met goz' scouting warrior a few turn ago, and he has writing and bronze working, but nothing else besides his starting techs.
The scouting warrior is to be expected in my area shortly after turn 60. I will have some warriors ready to take care of him.

I just researched Philosophy and got it first. I took Literature for free tech because goz might be researching it and the other techs will be for trade anyway. I sold Philo to all AI and got all their techs and gold. On Literature i still have a monopoly, i hope some AI gets me COL to trade for it soon.

The AI are going very fast. Horses are underneath Huamanga. I wanted to settle that city 1 tile more NW, but there was an AI settler already. I was just in time to grab those horses.

5 more settlers are needed. I started a barracks because my borders are meeting AI and i might soon need some kind of an army in order to be safe.

I have just settled 3 towns in short time (picture is turn 50, towns from 48&49) and now am #7 in territory and population, so it seems i have passed gozpel.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...3_untitled.JPG
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I offered Gozpel free techs since philosophy is a big game breaker, but Goz is an honorable man and he does not take freebies. He bought MM for GPT and traded his techs. I now trade MM from Goz for some techs he still lacks.

turn 63:

China demands Literature from me. To bad i have to give up my monopoly like this. I am researching Currency now ETA 12 turns.

I have to make the best of it now. I sell Literature to everyone, i get about 200 total gold and pay 75+4pt for CoL. I then declare on Goz and use CoL to bribe Goz' neighbour into an alliance against him.
I am hoping Goz does not have the cash for an embasy and bribing a civ.

My empire now has 10 cities and is just about boxed in. My capital produces the last 2 settlers, my rank3 city started SoZ, other cities are producing barracks and workers. One barracks is ready and just produced its first Vet warrior.

Construction is around with the AI, but i was not able to get it. I had hoped to use Literature for that after the AI spread construction amongst eachother, but that failed now.

Turn 73 now.
My situation looks pretty good i think.

This turn, I have succeeded getting Currency first, i traded it construction and a bunch of gold, including some gpt from the AI. I, and all the AI are in middle ages. I do not have a government yet, and i start researching Monotheism.
The AI will almost certainly research feudalism, so there is a chance (although with all 6 AI in middle ages, it ain't big) that i get it first as well. Even if not, the tech trading frenzy between the AI's usually cools down by this time, so i might still be able to trade some even if i'm not first. Republic will be for trade someday, so i am not gonna invest in researching it now.

Gozpel is in not so good shape. He lacks Polytheism, Code of Laws, Literature, Currency and Construction.
My ally, France has teamed up with Japan against Goz. My scouting warrior followed the first french attacker towards Gozpel. Goz' Horsemen killed the first french warrior in the mountains and then killed my warrior in the mountains, so he can't complain about rng so far :)

I also met 2 of Goz' scouting warriors in my area, 1 was easilly dispatched as i had my warriors scouting outside my empire so i could prepare for him. The other unfortunately took a worker from me and forced me tot pop rush a horse for taking it down. This was because i didn't see it comming, and the worker who just finished its job couldn't move.

10 turns ago, Goz was military weak against me. During those 10 turns, i did build some horses and more veteran warriors, and now he is average. So goz is clearly focussing on military.
He is in a rather grim situation with tech deficit and 2 War's going on, so i expect him to focus completely on military, possibly hoping to force his neighbours to peace and maybe a free tech or 2 for him and then getting ROP's to send his army my way. At least, that is what i would do in his situation. I am not fearing him at all though. I am boxed in with 13 towns, so i also have to go military now anyway. I will just have to keep in mind that he might be comming before i send my units off to attack the AI.

I have 3 cities with barracks completed building horses now, 1 city building SoZ, and 2 more cities building Barracks. Those are the core cities. The perimeter cities are building mostly workers.

I'll add another picture. The picture is just after goz' warrior took my worker and before i destroyed the warrior. See the red circle.
The red arrows show the path of the other warrior to the place where i killed it.
With bleu circles, i highlighted the reasons why China will be attacked as soon as i have the power to do so. The cultural influence threathening my cities is of course another very important reason.
Unfortunately, China is the strongest AI by far.

Some galleys must now be build to scout around the map and i will station them somewhere to see if Gozpel is gonna do any backstabbing attacks on me.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...5_untitled.JPG
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Turn 79,

Gozpel is still at war with Japan, he tells me it's a struggle.
Let's hope he aint lying :)

The AI has all AA techs, including the governments. Gozpel is still in a decent tech hole. I am researching Monotheism, but its slow, 25 turns to go on it.

China is my biggest worry now. They are culturally threathening me.
I always like to attack any cultural thread, but China is a monster so that won't be so simple.

The AI are strong this game, it feels more like Sid than deity actually. I expect the AI to have feudalism in a dozen or so turns. China with pikes are a real problem to attack. I might have to wait for Chivalry before i can break out. That will be 40-50 turns from now.

In a single player game, i might even think about building culture an living peace until that time. Now however, I expect not to have the choise to decide my time for war. Gozpel is probably smart enough to buy the Chinese against me when he can.

So i have to prepare for war now, as it could start any moment.
I strongly hope to get a little window of opportunity to attack at least 2 or 3 offending chinese towns before they get pikes to lift the cultural pressure from my borders. A war is also important to secure those gems in the mountains and if i am very succesfull, to capture one or 2 of the Chinese luxuries, but i am not counting on that for the coming 50 turns.

This need to bulid horsemen unfortunately disables me building the FP for now. I am also not sure if SoZ was a good choise because i need the units earlier. I am not planning to build any culture in my border cities since it is no guarantee against flipping and i will need to fight the Chinese someday anyway.

The last 5 workers are being produced for a total of 17. (they are industrious) After that, i will have a granary the cow cities for further worker production later in the game as well as settlers for razing and replacing.

I am military strong to Gozpel, but he is still outpopulating me.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...9_picture2.JPG
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could you switch the SoZ to another build? What other wonders are left? Why not switch it to the FP and lower corruption?

you mean you are not at war with an AI while goz has been at war with 2? that doesn't bode well for him. seems like he's missing out on an opportunity, which is not like him. in fact, in our game, he kept me in constant war vs various AI for the entire last third of the game.

Indeed, i am in pretty good shape for sure compared to Goz, but i can't let my guard down. The Chinese are a real thread for me.
If i play another PBEM after this, it will be without philosophy bonus tech and without alliances against players. They are just too powerfull.

Goz hasn't really let go much of opportunities because he didn't have any. I won to philosophy, threw him in a tech hole and bought an AI againt him. He has nothing to offer for the AI to fight me, he even payed the AI gpt for horseback riding.
So, he did not yet have the opportunity to return me the favor, but he sure will in the future. So i just make sure i am not only prepared, i try to make sure that i am so prepared that the war is gonna be in my advantage. (And if he doesn't start my war, i would have to do it myself anyway because of the cultural thread)

The only disadvantage i have is that i have the monster AI threathening me culturaly.

I could change SoZ to FP, but unfortunately, the place is not very good for the FP. Just look at the picture. I would like the FP in Machu Picchu or whatever is called there south of my capital.

65 shields are already made, so i cannot change it to a barracks now, which is what i should have build there. Any other city improvement is not worth it. So i will just keep building for now, and i can always decide to swich to FP later if it turns out i won't be building the FP in a better place. The value of SoZ is 10 spt (50s units every 5 turns) A badly placed FP probably has a similar or slightly better value.

Something i forgot to mention:
I also have 250 gold and at least 4 vet swords to upgrade. However, i keep the gold for now because i might need it. If Goz is gonna buy China against me, i must imeadiately buy India against China before i have them both against me. Gold is the only thing i have to give now, so i better keep it to bribe India when needed. If it turns out not to be needed, i can always still upgrade the warriors.

If i wanted to be truly evil, i could of course buy France against him right now. But i'm a nice guy, i don't want to be that evil :)

Hasnt stopped people around here from buying everything and their dog against eachother. [lol]

No? Ok, maybe then i'll do it, i'll tell Gozpel it was your idea :)

turn 80,

An important change in the situation. Gozpel managed to get peace with his neighbours and get the tech needed to reach MA as well as replublic.

His army is weak compared to my 6 horses and 10 warriors, so i think is paying gpt trough the nose for this. Very possible since it might be just about 20 turns since he made a gpt deal with an AI for horseback riding.

Goz now made me the offer for a 20 turn peacedeal and trade my Literature for his Republic if i pay some cash as well.

I assume he is paying gpt to his most recent enemy, Japan. So i don't want to buy Japan against him. That makes the 20 turn peacedeal a pretty decent idea as it will also stop him from buying china against me. How do PBEM players deal with peace deals? Is it a matter of honor to stay at peace for the full 20 turns or do you guys stab eachother in the back when peacedeals are made?

Unofortunately, my empire is not yet ready for republic. I expect a small or moderate loss of research if i turn to republic now.

The good thing of a republic change would be that i can attack china and start my golden age. The golden age would help me build a decent republic and an army to further punish China. I first need some more horses though, and i can't have a revolt first or they will surely have feudalism before i attack them.

I am also still researching Monotheism, so i might get Republic in trades anyway. Of course, that would be too late for an attack on China to triger the golden age as then they will have feudalism.

It is a difficult matter, i am gonna be thinking about this a bit more...

Usually, how strict treaties are held is discussed before the game. I know of no game where a priori a "treaties are holy" agreement was made, that was broken. But I don't know everything.

Personally; I would never break a XX turn (why 20 ??) deal with a human.

20 is what all per turn deals are. So he might have just taken the default peace deal in the diplo screen

I know 20 is default. I also know there's nothing against making deals with the opponent like "peace till turn 100" or "No MA's till we reach the Industrial Age" or whatever. That's the fun part of PBEM; you can make deals more flexible than "20 turns or forever" ..

true... I'll stop following you now, Rik. ;)

Since i don't need republic yet and my monotheism has a huge chance of succes (AI's are 93% sure to research feudalism when they get into MA), i have declined goz' offer. I told him i could trade without gold, but he didn't like that idea.
I keep building horses and i may attack China in 6 turns or so. (14 horses then)
Gman, i assume cultural conversion is not turned off ?

Goz told me the value of Republic is now 20-25gpt depending on what AI to deal with. I have not harmed my reputation in any way, i am aproximately the same size as Goz and have a stronger millitary, why do the AI charge me around 40-45 gpt for it ?

Meanwhile, i decided that with 14 industrious workers i have enough for now.
3 cities are producing a settler. These will be ready in about 10 turns and can then be used to replace the chinese towns i am gonna raze.
A galley is just produced. A veteran Jav thrower will be produced instead of a horse and another Jav thrower will be pop rushed in a corrupt town. These 2 guys will be boarded and sail towards Gozpel. They are expected to arrive in 20-25 turns or so. I do this so that i can activate my golden age on Gozpel or if needed a far away AI without the need for war with my neighbours. And who knows, maybe i can do some damage to Goz as well.

That is correct.

Turn 86:

Damn, China has feudalism and i just found out i still have a deal with them going for 7 turns (them paying me 2 gpt :S)
I also fear Goz waits for me to be in war with one of my neighbours before buying the other one against me. (we decided on only 1 alliance against eachother)
Please Goz, buy China against me NOW !

China is now at war with France, the Mongols are in between them, so i don't think they will be doing a lot of damage to eachother.

My research on Monotheism is now ETA 14 turns. probably 12 turns or so with some growth. I guess i can't do much else than just keep buiding horses and hope China doesn't have his spears upgraded 7 turns from now. I also hate how the civ tools don't work with multiplayer, i would like to see the flip risk in my border cities and how many units will prevent it...

the latest version of mapstat does work (well, 2.11.0, not sure if that's the latest). open mapstat, then navigate to the save. it should prompt you for the p/w. type it in, then you should see "none" as the active civ name. select your civ from the list and you get all of mapstat's details. just make sure goz is ok with using it before you do it.

Btw, Gman, what kind of drug did you give those AI's?

World Ranking 800BC:

China 1127
France 989
Scandi 911
Mongol 881
India__ 870
Japan_ 861
Wacke 574
Gozpel 550

This is more like Sid ..

The AI beat me to Monotheism by 4 turns.
I bought monotheism for a little gpt, then traded it for Engineering and payed a little more gpt. I even had to pay gpt to trade Engineering + Monotheism for Feudalism wich every AI has. I don't understand why they are charging me insane prices this game, but they do. Well, i am now paying 19gpt and receiving 22gpt, but 12 of those are old deals to end in 2 turns.

I started research on Theology, my chances for a monopoly are pretty reasonable again since invention and gunpowder are such a strong favorites, but i will probably soon convert to Republic. I will start thinking and calculating about that next turn. Not yet sure if i'm going tru on Theology. Neither am i sure IF i will swich to republic at all. I might just attempt to finish this game with Chivalry asap.

Goz has no MA techs at all, a weaker army than I, is paying lots of GPT to the AI but his land area has grown larger than mine because i have no space to go anymore and he has weaker neighbours.

Will you be posting any screenshots ?
I'm a very visual person and I love screenshots ...

Sure, but it looks an awfull lot like last one :)
And sorry for the quality, but the damn server doesn't seem to take more than 200KB and i only have paint to make it smaller.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...04839_land.JPG
133.13*KB

Wacken, try: http://www.irfanview.com/

Better resizing than M$ Paint

2 tips.
1 - use http://www.imageshack.us/ and link to it. It supports bigger than 200 kb.
2 - your picture is still the same size, because the white parts around the picture are still part of it. To use Paint effectively; start with the background really really small.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up... voor Woa1.JPG
14.34KB

Then paste the screenshot in (automatically setting the correct height and width - eliminating the white) and resize it using the method below. 80% is just an example...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/up...p voor WoA.JPG
82.35KB

Yeah, i know about the white part, i think i am actually quite good at using paint as i have done EVERYTHING in it during my TI education :)

Just forgot to change the borders after the resizing:)

Of course, you just wanted to post that to show your dutch version of windows ;)