Espionage re-revisited

[anarres]

I want to know how to stop some bastard stealing my tech lead away...

1) Be at war -> Opponent needs IA and Spy. Downside is that WW is present in PBEM, more than first anticipated. Permanent war is probably not sustainable.

2) Use Expose Spy frequently, although this requires your own spy (and costs money, although the cost is fairly minimal). This means your opponent has to plant a spy successfully before they get a chance to steal.

Damn, only 2 ideas. I want more please!

[Lt. Killer M]

ah, what about the very simple one: kill him? [lol]


not much you can actually do :( except stopping reasearch....

[DrAlimentado]

I think thats it. At least I can't think of any more...

I would still say that being tech leader is clearly the advantageous position to be in. I also like the fact that tech steals can cause fairly dramatic swings in fortune, it is a nice counter to the 'runaway leader' nature of the game generally imo.

[Skyfish]

Play with my great "expensive-espionnage" mod ! :D
Ask Aggie and Jack how they like it...
It puts more emphasis in getting a tech lead but I believe it means more difficult choices need to be made instead of relying on the RNG of tech steal...

[Aggie]

Well, with prices like 5000 gold for a careful steal...you think twice!

I like it [hammer]. But I'm also the tech leader[hammer][hammer]

[yndy]

Could you destroy/sabotage the Intelligence Agency? That would be a cool option.

Research more how espionage works. and share the results.

[Socrates]

I was wondering how the Intelligence Agency works in Civ3 and in PBEMs. Can a civ perform any kind of mission even when at war with the other civ ? Does it need a spy first (which would be caught in case of hard luck) ? Is a counter-spy available only if I build the IA ? Do I catch every enemy spy with the counter-spy ?

[anarres]

The rules follow the SP rules, so you need a spy to steal at war, etc.

The one big difference is that neither player will know when the other one steals and fails...

[Pastorius]

Huh. That sucks. Not even player 1...did anyone discover a reason for that?

Edit: come to think of it, player 1 knows diddly squat...I meant player 2 or the equivalent # of play for the human in a 101 game

[Socrates]

Well, I was aware of no message when someone spies on the other guy (this issue is solved in the gentleman way of playing), but I was rather surprised by the fact that the IA provides you with spying even at war. I have to admit that I practiced very little spying in SP games. In my 1v1 with Beam, I felt safe from espionage because we had been at war since very early. But Beam managed to spy on my military and it was a schock for me when I lurked his spoiler. So even at war, you can plant a spy (but you have to be lucky for him to succeed, I assume Beam was lucky on his 1st attempt) ? And then with a spy, can you succeed in all missions even at war, or does some RNG calculate chances of success for each mission again ? If I suspect a spy being present in my capital, what does the counter-spy actually do ?

[anarres]

Spys actually have a better chance than a diplomat (i.e. embassy) when you steal, and you don't need to be at peace to use them.

Of course you need to research Espionage and build the IA, so it's not "easy" to do.

[Aggie]

@krys: counter-espionage? I assume you mean 'expose enemy spy'? It will try to find an enemy spy and you have a certain rate of success on that.

There's an excellent article on spying on a site I visit occasionally: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97042. I have seen no evidence indicating that MP works diffeerently, except for the obvious lack of info of failed attempts (as we see in other cases as well).

[anarres]

"...on a site I visit occasionally" [lol]

Aggie, even though you don't post there much now I think we are all aware of CFC and your part in the community there. ;)

[Aggie]

People of Twente and the Achterhoek (Eastern part of the Netherlands - yes, even our tiny country can be divided into regions!!!) like understatements :)

[Beam]

There are a lot of bells and whistles available with spies but just a couple are usefull imo:

No risk of detection:
- Investigate city (typically ranging from 35 to 250 gold)
- Full overview of opponents troops in F3 (for free once the spy is in place)

Risk of detection / failure:
- Steal plans (get exact locations, experience and damage of every unit of opponent)
- Steal tech (speaks for itself, can be very powerfull if catching up, allows tech of choice if no failure)
- Expose enemy spy (if you have to hide something)

Less usefull:
- Initiate propaganda (which is basically useless since even a little culture is enough to prevent it on the higher levels)
- Steal Worldmap (only has a purpose in the rare occasion you don't know the map at that stage of the game, the KR rightclick method provides similar info for free if you know the map)
- Sabotage Production (the more shields in the improvement the more expensive it gets. Talking big bucks for Wonders, Spaceship components and nukes).

[Grille]

I'm quite a pbem-noob, have very limited experience with spies. I've built the IA only once; [eek] didn't perform any mission other than planting and that was just to observe my opponent on F3.
The 'expose' mission has certainly something to it in a PBEM, but it's rarely used in SP (if at all; never used it succesfully myself).
In some SP, an AI succesfully exposed my spy while their spy was caught in the act as well (which is different to the steal mission: get caught=no success).[hmm]

If you perform that expose mission and assuming your opponent has indeed a spy in place, then
(i)-your spy will always be used up in the process whether succesful or not
(ii)-your spy could be caught if mission was succesful (OR: your spy could get away if mission was not succesful)
?
[confused]


(i) may sound silly, but I see some logic in it. If a spy was succesfully exposed, the victim would never know if the rival has an actual spy or not (i.e. if replant happened afterwards or not).

I guess you bunch have used the expose mission a lot.
So what's the deal?

[anarres]

Hmm. Maybe Aggie will know, but you will probably have to email him to find out.

[Grille]

Tested a bit around. The sample was way too small, but big enough to tell that (i) is mud.
The first part of (ii) seems to be correct.

If I understood Oystein's findings correctly, success chances are always 80%. Then the risk option influences the chances of getting away. I asked Oystein for confirmation on the 80% thing.

Interesting: the price of the plant mission is cheaper than the cost of the expose mission, so maybe it's worth to expose at high arrest-risk and then replant afterwards; haven't crunched numbers/probabilities, though.

From the tech leader's perspective, the removal of the enemy spy could be achieved cheaply, compared to the investment the crook has to make until having the tech. Then again, it's hard to tell if there is indeed a mole unless the tech steal already happened (no mole=100% fail).

edit:
quote:
2) Use Expose Spy frequently, although this requires your own spy (and costs money, although the cost is fairly minimal). This means your opponent has to plant a spy successfully before they get a chance to steal.

if you want to expose frequently though the existence of the enemy spy is pretty much unclear, you're probably better off always picking the 'immediate' option on the long run.
That is, of course, if success is indeed always 80%.

[Justus II]

quote:Originally posted by Beam


- Steal Worldmap (only has a purpose in the rare occasion you don't know the map at that stage of the game, the KR rightclick method provides similar info for free if you know the map)


Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, but what is the "KR rightclick" method? I don't recognize the abbreviation. [???]

[Kemal]

"KingReno" ((KR) rightclick method, which means right-clicking on visible map tiles to see, based on the info it gives on the productivity of the tile, "invisible" improvements made on that tile.

First introduced (here on CDZ) by forum member KingReno.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

"KingReno" ((KR) rightclick method, which means right-clicking on visible map tiles to see, based on the info it gives on the productivity of the tile, "invisible" improvements made on that tile.

First introduced (here on CDZ) by forum member KingReno.

Mmmh, I figured that one by myself, but that's just me... [blush] Oh note that it doesn't work 100% well : harbours and offshore platforms (for sure) aren't integrated in it, and it's a bit harder to see the tiles worked by the AI, because of differences like traits, golden age, etc...

[Justus II]

OK, thanks, I was wondering if it stood for some special key combination or something. Good idea, though, as an observant way to gain intel (when conditions permit).