What about Research?

[anarres]

I want to know if people find their research strategies are different in PBEM's to SP games?

One thing I noticed: If you don't do the research yourself, you can't rely on the other human player to do it and sell it around. As a true tech leader (and not just a 1-turn tech leader) you are often better off denying it to the other human, rather than giving it to them mega-cheap. The AI's would normally recieve all my techs fairly quickly (up to their ability to pay), but now I think twice before selling my valuable techs.

I am a research-lover anyway, I often build Libs and Unis before their respective counterparts (often = not always, before you step in and give examples of when that is bad!). This is a carry-over from SP games where the AI gets too shabby to research anything useful in a decent space of time, pretty much always in the Middle Ages.

I understand that 'stealing is the new research', can someone shed some more light on this please? I had to spend about 1400 gold (or so) to steal a Middle Age tech (Banking) in my game vs Kemal, and considering that to buy it would cost not much more, can someone explain why this is so useful?

Sometmies stealing can be very useful - when you want to steal a lead tech the other human has researched. That way you can steal it and sell it around the same turn...

But! Does anyone prefer to go the 'no science' route and buy/steal all their tech? This used to be an option (that I never took) in SP games, but I can't see it working now in MP, or even in SP now we have the 'tech leader' trade bonus.

[ProPain]

I rarely steal ever. Stealing techs & mobilising: both concepts I keep forgetting to use. Probably because my SP hardly make it past Mil Trad. After that I know if it's a win or not and usually dont bother to finish.

I do think stealing can be useful. When you're back in tech and buy a tech, the other human can scoop up that money by selling another tech. When you steal a tech the money is effectively out of the economy and so you deny that to your opponent too.

[Aggie]

I prefer research over stealing anytime! Rellying on stealing from the start is unwise imho. You will always be one or more turns behind and miss crucial opportunities, like:

- getting ToE and Hoover
- being the first to use tanks
- being the first to use nukes
- etc...

However, the tactic of researching and not giving techs away (crucial ones) is commonly used by others as well (like me). Also it often can happen that you have a bad rep or that you want to deny others the money.

IMHO stealing is very powerful when you have no option to keep up in research, mainly in the Industrial Age and the Modern Age. This is the time that the humans pull away from the AI. With science at 30% you are often able to research a dead end tech in 20 turns (like Nationalism, Sanitation) while making > 500 gpt. This allows you to try a steal every 3 turns. Considering that about 50% of all stealing fails, you get a tech every 6 turns. Mostly you will then be the 2nd to have it, but the first to trade it around, netting you a lot of gpt, techs etc!

When you find out that you are going to be outresearched, banks, stock exchanges and Espionage become number one priority!

PS. I hate to steal, but will do it any time to keep up. Jack Merchant and me are experimenting in our game by making stealing twice as expensive!

[Skyfish]

I strongly believe stealing is "broken" in 1vs1.
If you have a commercial civ the amount of money you make at the end of Middle Age A is so big and the first Industrial Age tachs are so expensive that it almost makes no sense searching them.

quote:I had to spend about 1400 gold (or so) to steal a Middle Age tech (Banking) in my game vs Kemal, and considering that to buy it would cost not much more, can someone explain why this is so useful?
The crucial advantage of stealing is that you deny your ennemies of the money it would cost to buy [evil]

However I would also like to have games where stealing cost is made prohibitive, as it is it's almost exploitative :D

[Shabbaman]

Stealing is better than buying, you don't want to help your opponent of course. How do you know when your human (!) opponent has just discovered a tech though?
I rarely use stealing or even spy missions, it's all too expensive. But then again, I'm a lousy player anyway...

[jack merchant]

I almost never steal before the indutrial age (only time I did was vs DrA, but there it was worth it - I stole the republic). But in almost any 1vs1 game, the AIs are going to be dead or a non-factor sooner or later (unless you get killed first, of course :D), and then you do need a research capability.

I suspect that it is generally better to sell the techs you research yourself almost right away - your opponent will get them too but at least you'll make a load of dosh to invest in further research, infra rushing and the like. If your opponent steals it and sells it around, they may actually make a profit on stealing from you.

[Aggie]

@Jack: I didn't sell my techs in our game, after getting Radio ;) Once you have more than one tech over you opponent, it becomes difficult for him/her to judge how far he/she is behind. And then he/she has to guess whether there's something to steal.

Another tactic to avoid stealing is something I did vs Killer. I was clearly the fastest researcher, but at some point I stopped research and tried to fool him to steal a tech. He tried to steal a tech at that time, but got a message that the spy was caught. But otherwise he would have gotten a message that there was nothing to steal.

[DrAlimentado]

you stole republic jack!! you lowlife... no wonder you complained when we had a few turns of phoney war, cheeky fucker!

just shows my pre-emptive strike WAS based on sound intelligence after all... ;)

[ProPain]

quote:Originally posted by DrAlimentado


you stole republic jack!! you lowlife... no wonder you complained when we had a few turns of phoney war, cheeky fucker!

just shows my pre-emptive strike WAS based on sound intelligence after all... ;)


[lol] [lol]
This is why MP beats SP, you'll never have so much post-game fun in SP.

[Pastorius]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

Stealing is better than buying, you don't want to help your opponent of course. How do you know when your human (!) opponent has just discovered a tech though?
I rarely use stealing or even spy missions, it's all too expensive. But then again, I'm a lousy player anyway...


Can someone give any info on what [shabba] is asking here. I am wondering about these things these days as well. I think I have figured out how to read the diplo interface, but I want to learn more.

[anarres]

The cost of a tech drops when someone else knows it.

With 1 human player you can work out which techs they have, out of the ones you are able to research (by checking the cost in F1).

This can get a little tricky if you are also researching something else, because you can only set the F1 science rate, then switch to F6 and look at the # of turns for that tech rate. You then go back to F1 (without having changed your research), change the tech rate, then go back to F6 to see the # of turns.

Eventually you get the approximate cost, which tells you how many others know it.

Use GreyFox's techcalc (from CFC utilities) to see what the costs are for different numbers of players.

P.S. Don't forget that any scientists are not included in the F1 "science" spending totals, so if you have 2 scientists that's an extra 6 beakers per turn you have to take in to account.

[digger760]

You can figure out if a human player has a tech by observing a drop in the research cost for the tech. But IMO unless you are able to count cards in Blackjack then it very hard to tell...so i just use Tech Calc to determine how many other civs have the tech, based on what it currently cost me to research it...then if more civs have the tech than there are AI civs then you can safely assume that the Human player has the tech.