JM vs Puwen ----SPOILER THREAD------

[jack merchant]

Anyone seen my start ? I moved one tile N, and thereby managed to precisely avoid the game forest and cow that were just out of visual range [aargh].
Here it is again:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/200381611657_JP_start.jpg
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I moved my worker to the NE to reveal two fur forests, one of which was used to speed up the granary and then mined for extra shields.

[jack merchant]

Fucking Nazis must die - they sneakattacked and captured my second city:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/200381605649_German_attack.jpg
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As you can see, by moving my capital to the coast and moving it to a place where my units wouldn't lose a turn crossing the river trying to get anywhere I managed to miss both the game forest and the cow :(

[anarres]

Wow, that's bad luck!

[jack merchant]

Well, we got to turn 75 on our very first day of playing (how's that for progress ?) and I managed to recapture Orléans and buy off the Germans for 3gpt. Puwen now leads by 100 points in score, but that may have something to do with the fact that I am building granaries in most of my cities. Here's the map of my lands at turn 75:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/200381645742_JP_lands.jpg
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There is a choke to the West that I can close off fairly easily, though mapmaking has been discovered so the AIs will likely scatter some cities behind my back. Still, I think the investment in relatively early granaries is well worth the risk. Once they come online, growth will be faster and I should be able to catch up to Puwen. Moreover, he's building dense RCP-style while I am taking more space for my cities so that should help me in the late game. I am rediscovering my love for commercial/industrious !

Techwise, I went for pottery and ceremonial burial at max, and then mathematics at min. It came in before any useful techs had been discovered (i.e. beyond writing) so I only got money for it - on the upside, I now have embassies with everyone. The AIs are *very* slow and I'll try to keep it that way. I went for min sci on Currency after maths, and I suspect it might actually pay off now.

Since the AIs weren't able to explore around me, my worldmap was also worth a good bit of money. The world looks like this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/2003816554_jpminimap.jpg
6.39*KB
with the Chinese having been under Roman assault, it seems.

My start was slower than Puwen's, but I think I should be able to catch up. The biggest downside to the German sneakattack was that I actually planned to build the Pyramids in Paris with Orleans as the setttler farm, but now I had to produce archers instead. I now intend to do a warrior-sword upgrade with the money from the min sci and punish the evil Germans for that !

[Aggie]

Good job on recapturing Orleans [goodjob]

[ERIKK]

Well done JM!!!!

75 turns?????? Even anarres and me haven't done that. Dunno what our
sessionrecord is, probably something like 50 turns in one day (and
night)...

[jack merchant]

The joys of MSN file transfer :).

[Skyfish]

Yep, beats email *any* time.
YOu were still up at 5h45 it seems, I just missed you by a few minutes on MSM [lol]

[jack merchant]

Insomniacs'r'us [crazyeye]

[jack merchant]

We're at turn 96 now and this is the new look of my empire:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/2003816194939_jp_fp.jpg
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Apart from wondering whether I'm not in fact spacing my cities too widely after all, why I'm now three techs behind again and how come Puwen is 200 points aheaad in score and why I fuck these games up so much, I am also wondering where to build the FP. I know the longer the game lasts, the bigger the advantage of my city spacing will be but it doesn't look all that good at the moment.

Either I should build my FP in Orléans and pray for a leader somewhere else or I could try jumping the palace (something I hate to do and is far too exploitative for my tastes, or it should be somewhere in the SE I guess. Suggestions are welcome :)

[DrAlimentado]

dam, I hate these decisions. IMO you bite the bullet and build the FP in the best place you can asap. If orleans is the only city with good enough spt then so be it... not having a FP will cripple you soon.

Relying on getting a leader has a nasty habit of backfiring in my experience. Of course, if you start a build you can bet that 3 turns from completion you'll get a leader and have no wonder to swap the build too.

[jack merchant]

Turn 110 or so: Only one Germans is still in my lands, and having just upgraded a bunch of warriors, I decide to buy Mono and feudalism for 40+ gpt and boot them out. Classic:D.

One problem though - they don't bite ? I'm strong vs them ? Fuck, fuck, fuckety fuck [wallbash]. And now I suddenly don't have the money to buy The Republic when it shows up. Poetic justice, some might call it [aargh].

Anyway, seeing as I'm strong, I sign peace with the Persians who wanted to extort me with me getting Lit for measly 1gpt in the deal [cool]. Out of sheer spite I also extort the Chinese for 80 gold in the peace negotiations. That still leaves me with only 100 gold and 9 gpt - nowhere near enough to buy republic :(.

[anarres]

jack, you should have got them furious first by demanding cities! [evil]

[jack merchant]

they already were after our war in the beginning - I should have waited with upgradingg my warriors until I had offered gpt for the tech !

Frankly, this game doesn't look too good right now and I may very well lose until some miracle happens.

BTW, my FP is going to go to Besanc;on as per the map above - the palace will then go to Rheims or Marseilles later ( Marseilles will have a nice ring of current and future French cities around it).

[Aggie]

Using this tactic so early in the game? What went wrong Jack? Surely you know that it is very handy to have a few good and polite trading partners around! ;)

[jack merchant]

Well, the failure of that trick slowed down my becoming a Republic for a full 15 turns at least. I did get Republic fairly cheaply as Rome tried to extort me two turns after I bought it from them for gpt.
6 turns of anarchy later and I'm a republic with my FP to come online on turn 163 (it's 147 now). I got Engineering and Theology cheaply (Iron and 10gpt to the Persians) to get even in tech. I'll have to check whether puwen is researching though.

The drawback of the Persian deal is that it runs entirely through German waters so I can't declare war on them now [cry]. On the bright side, I don't need to pillage the one iron I already have connected to start building horses again [cool].

The best plan right now is probably getting a ROP with the Germans and going after the Koreans, Romans and Chinese with a bunch of upgraded horsies - that will give me the Pyramids and TGL too.At +95gpt or so a turn, I should be able to get 15-20 knights together for that offensive.

[Skyfish]

quote:I could try jumping the palace (something I hate to do and is far too exploitative for my tastes

[scratch]

Getting huge gpt deals with the AIs and then getting them to declare war on you (especially after making them furious with bogus demands) is just as exploitative as jumping a Palace by abandoning it IMHO.
SInce you use that last tactive a lot, your conscience should be at rest [lol]

In a case where a Civ is moving big SoDS of troops towards you and you feel a sneak attack is coming, making a deal at that point is OK but purposely getting to declare on you is so/so...[groucho]

[jack merchant]

[cool]

The difference is though, that when you do the 'gpt screwover' there's an actual cost in game terms - the AIs go to war against you. Which can be costly, as vs Aggie I had to draft more often and rush many times to deal with the English/Persian/Iro invasions. Plus the wars lasted progressively longer, meaning increasing WW and not being able to get out of mobilization. Finally, you run the risk of the AIs not fallling for it - something which happened in this game and set me back by 10-15 turns vs Puwen.

None of that applies to palace jumps - there, you can get something ( a couple of hundred shields in immediate construction and a massive long-term increase in commerce and shields ) for basically nothing. I'd say that that's a bit of a difference.:)

[jack merchant]

Turn 165: 20 Horses are upgraded to knights for 1600 gold, will hit Germany next turn when all my overseas trade deals end (I'm not sure about them surviving a war with Germany)

Turn 166: FP completes, income rises by about 35gpt but will get better once my second core grows. War is declared, I immediately capture the German dyes city. Astronomy just got around so I can still trade abroad, the Persians get Iron and 8gpt for Invention and gems (they just discovered astronomy). The plan is to conquer the Germans until I have a narrow front, then turn south and hit Korea (who are fairly small) and invade Rome. If I can hold the chokes at a good point I should be able to conquer towards domination.

Of course, I have no idea what puwen's plans are.... I may change my mind and start researching myself if gunpwder and a possible GA show up soon and not rely on TGL.

In any case, he's done a superb job expanding for a self-described 'monarch/emperor player' [:lol]. All the tricks in the book may be necessary to beat him !

[Skyfish]

I have given a hard time about him "pretending" to be a Monarch player ;)
I challenged him to a game actually more as a joke and he said "OK but I get 3 settlers and you one, I am a noob" [lol] [lol]
What a funny guy !
:D

[jack merchant]

Turn 172: Incredibly, Puwen still doesn't appear to be researching. Gunpowder has gotten around so I have decided to buy it (at 2nd or 3rd, I don't know) from Persia in a 2fer with Education. Even while paying out 55gpt, my income still is 155 gpt now. My goal is now to get a GA quick and outresearch Puwen beelining towards Military tradition.

[DrAlimentado]

hehe, I think puwen is a pretty dam good monarch player too! :D maybe he is just that though - a monarch/emp player who has been playing below his level.

[jack merchant]

Here's the minimap btw:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/2003819131849_jp_worldmap.jpg

(whoops, inserted the wrong picture there the first time around. Guess I should have used a more descriptive filename. Anyway, the Germans have lost another city since then but have muskets now, and the tons of Roman troops that appeared are going to be trouble)

There is a one-tile choke on the German-Persian border that I'm going to have to control before Puwen gets there. If I can secure it, I can take out the remaining civs at will.

I also got a leader vs the Germans (map of my progress due tomorrow) and triggered the GA. I'm now researching chemistry at max - I hope to trade it for Banking and astronomy and if Music Theory shows up quick, I have a palace prebuild ready in 10 with 6 turns to go on chemistry. Since the place where my prebuild is positioned would also be the best place for a possible palace move, I decided to build an army instead. Good thing too, as about 30 Roman Med Infs, Legions and longbows just showed up. I should get plenty of elites and will get the HE quick with GA bonus or another leader. With some luck I'll get more of the MA wonders as we progress.

[Aggie]

Your are kidding us right? [scratch] This is the map after 175 turns? Get that choke Jack, get it now! Just remember our game ;)

[Skyfish]

Still you are doing good Jack, you've reversed the situation I feel [thumbsup]

[jack merchant]

Turn 181: I get another leader ! I'm going to rush the Heroic Epic with it. One turn later, MT becomes available - Bach's is now due in two with my prebuild. I also discover Chemistry and with it, acquire Banking, Astronomy, Navigation and gold. Next up: Metallurgy.

Puwen just told me I lost my rep, but once I get cavs, it won't matter much. Besides, with my GA bonus I'll be able to research techs for trade.

[anarres]

Where is puwen in tech? How well developed is he?

[jack merchant]

Last time I checked (last turn, 184) I was ahead by Chemistry. But I need cavs anyway to take out the Germans and secure the choke. He'll just buy any tech he wants, but I won't sell metallurgy and MT like I did with Chemistry - he'll have to steal them.

[jack merchant]

Turn 186: The HE pays off ! I get another leader and rush Smith's with it - taking a massive risk here though -I rush it in the heavily resisting German city of Hamburg. However, the Germans will be a non-factor soon and Í should be able to reconquer it fairly quickly should it flip back.

Turn 187: Smith's is completed but my Army and 4 other units are eaten by the size-6 German city of Munich flipping back [cry][wallbash]. My offensive forces suddenly look rather thin......
Next turn though, a number of banks and unis will complete so I can switch back to military production.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

Hmm...should have used Anarres' trusty flip calc (yeah, gratuitous plug) See.. I can play nice [evil]

[jack merchant]

Why concede ? Puwen dropped off 9 cavs near my core (of which I only had was able to kill two with the forces nearby), and I would probably have lost two cities, one of which had JS Bach's cathedral. The loss of these cities would have cut my empire in half, as I lost another city vs the Koreans who I had a ROP with.
I had discovered rails this last turn, but I had no coal hooked up either - it would have taken two turns to get it hooked up with everyone at my throats in the meantime.

Why did I lose ?
- the start played a mjor role IMHO. I moved my settler for entirely rational reasons, and as a result did not get the two bonus tiles nearby. Puwen's bonus tiles were visible from the start so he had no such trouble. The loss of bonus tiles and my decision to build a granry first in Paris delayed my growth by at least 20 turns, posssibly more.
- the German sneak attack. Maybe I should have seen it coming, but the Germans came in straight from the west, so I gambled that they were just after barbs. IT was of course too late to whip the city when they moved next to it. Also, my recapture of Orleans was delayed because I had fforgotten that you can't autoraze cities with your citizens in it. The German attack took another 10-15 turns off my growth. Puwen's neighbours the Japanese had a rather lousy start:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/jack merchant/200382319628_japan_start.jpg
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On a peninsula, with mostly plains around. They were doomed from the start.
- Overall city placement was too much OCP. Now as a commercial civ I think you can get away with this, and it would be interesting to see what might have happened if I'd been able to expand peacefully with the same food bonuses as puwen.
- Sloppy play : I should have played the resource disconnect/upgrade card more often, and didn't. That's as good as inexcusable.
- Puwen's attack and setting up the wars with the AI - I shouldmost definitely have seen that coming, and declared war against puwen earlier (in fact I noticed Carthaginian cavalry coming in the turn before last, so I should most definitely have declared war pre-emptively. Instead, I let him gain the initiative and thus lost a city to the Koreans who I had a ROP with, and it also became impossible to get immediate peace with the Persians)
- Superior play by Puwen - his early RCP-style layout turned out very powerful, with the later cities spaced more widely.

Do not underestimate this man, people ! Puwen is an excellent player, and should be able to play deity-light level without too much difficulty.

[Plux]

I don't underestimate him, he's got me in a tight spot as well [lol]