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View Full Version : Gothmog vs. Anarres **Spoiler**


Gothmog
24-07-2003, 15:29
My first PBEM, a standard map diety/pangea everything else random. I am Persia and anarres is china. I should have thought more about the advantage of a three move Knight in a PBEM game, but Iíll make due. Playing one turn at a time does take some getting used to.

My start position looks OK, and will be really nice later in the game. Iíve got a forest game over a grassland and my first move will be to clear that forest and irrigate the grassland. To make best use of the chop I am going to build one warrior for exploration and then build a granary (through a barracks prebuild). This means I need to do a max research run on Pottery. Here is an initial screen shot a few turns in.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003724142749_GvA1.jpg
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On the 15th turn of the game a barbarian appeared from the east. Crap. My single warrior had been exploring west, then south and was making his way back east (I like to plot out my first few cities as a top priority). He was then going to head directly south to try to make some contacts (based on the mini map South and West are my directions for contact), but I had to send him back home. You will note that I didnít pop a hut I found, this is typical for me if not expansionist Ė too big a risk of barbs.

My warrior wouldnít have made it in time to stop pillaging but the barb didnít make a beeline to Persepolis so I was spared that setback. I had to slow my production a bit to get my Ďracks to finish the same turn as I discovered pottery, I then went to the advisors screen and swapped to a granary. I decided on a min run to IW just to save up cash for trades, thinking that getting any second tier tech in 40 turns would be fine Ė I have second guessed this decision a number of times.

The barbarian actually was scared off by my one warrior and went back into the fog. But every time I tried to go exploring a bit he would reappear so I just resigned myself to having an MP and no early contact. I finished my granary and am now building a warrior to hold back that barb who is still staying on my borders. I must have a pretty close neighbor to my SE to explain the barb so I am sending my warrior that way to make contact. I havenít yet decided if I am going to build another warrior or a settler next. I need to look at what the best size cycle for me is (I assume it will be 7-5) and how to set that up. Here is the current situation.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003724142840_GvA2.jpg
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Gothmog
28-07-2003, 23:21
Well I finally started exploring again and this time decided to pop the hut I ran across. Got a nice prize.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003728221229_GvA21.jpg
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I am also about to finish my first settler. I have a worker covered by that warrior east of Persoplis.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200372822132_GvA22.jpg
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A couple of turns later I am trying not to let that barbarian get between my worker and me. This was a bad turn for me as in the in-between turns both my warriors were attacked and killed. Then the barbarian pillaged Persepolis and killed a citizen of my great nation. This was a major setback [B)], but the worst is yet to come!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003728221432_GvA23.jpg
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[aargh] In between turns a barbarian emerged from the fog onto the spot with the wheat. Then on my next turn my worker completed the road he was working on and I couldnít stop the barbarian from killing him. So short of having an escort on him I couldnít have saved that worker (my spear in Persoplis couldnít get there in time due to the river) Ė this is new to me. In the turn order I am used to I would have been able to cancel the worker action and move him away. I was feeling quite bad at this point, I am used to barbs (I typically play on Raging) but I have rarely been hurt this badly. [mad]

Finally some good stuff happens [yeah]. I found Pasargadae and meet the Germans. He isnít up tech on me and so I can still get one in trade for CB and Pottery. I figured he would have those by now through trade, so most likely he hasnít met anyone else yet! We may be isolated together by geography! I vow that he will soon be licking my boots.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003728221612_GvA24.jpg
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Then I get my fist bit of real luck [dance]. The turn after I met the Germans I decide to call Biz up again as I still have some cash, and what do I see?

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003728221922_GvA25.jpg
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He must be having barb problems too as he has two workers up for trade. I am still 5 turns from having one out of Pasargadae, and that will be painful for Pasargadaeís growth. I almost never buy workers this early, but painful times call for painful measures so I mortgage everything and buy both from him. This will hurt him as much as it helps me. Biz is all but my piss bucket boy now. [devil]

Aggie
28-07-2003, 23:25
Gothmog: thanks for the entertaining write-up [thumbsup]

Skyfish
28-07-2003, 23:37
Let's hope anarres got badly hit by the barbs as well :D
you wouldnt want to give him a head start ;)

Gothmog
29-07-2003, 16:08
Well Skyfish, you know the situation since I know you were in collusion with him over the weekend (bastard). He claims to have had some barb problems, but I doubt they were this severe. Not to worry though, I do my best work under pressure!

Skyfish
31-07-2003, 10:38
quote:I know you were in collusion with him

In collusion ??? with him ????

NO ? [dunno] really ? [confused] [scared2]

[fdevil] MWAHAHAHA [evil]

:D

ERIKK
31-07-2003, 11:38
That was me I guess... [evil]

Gothmog
31-07-2003, 18:20
Oooo, I'm scared. I need my mommy [cry]

[hmm]

[ponder]

[lol]

[joker]

Skyfish
31-07-2003, 19:00
OK I'll challenge your mommy to a PBEM !
:D

Gothmog
04-08-2003, 21:11
You can see in my last picture above (the WC trade with Germany) that I was 23 points behind anarres, here I am 24 points behind. I think this is basically due to losing a population point and a worker to the barbs. When I last wrote I had contacted the Germans, well the warrior who made contact was killed by barbs a couple turns later and so didnít get to explore much.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20038420654_GA1.jpg
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My barb problems continue as I canít quite get my MP to Susa before it gets raided (just founded it the turn before). I knew this was a possibility when I sent the settler unescorted. So I do this little trade with the Germans.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20038420719_GA2.jpg
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Thus I only have 9 in the bank and only get raided for 4 gold.

Some time passes and I have founded my fourth city and am completing another settler, I have also built enough (regular) spearmen to have sent another warrior out towards the hut I found much earlier in the game. From there he will restart my exploring endeavor.

If you hadnít noticed it I am building a ring at 4.5 distance from Persepolis, I finished my settler and was one turn from founding the location 3 squares east of Persepolis when a German border appeared 4 squares (a distance of 6) to the east of Persepolis. Crapola, I turn him around to get another 4.5 spot.

My warrior reaches the hut and I get another tech!:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20038420755_GA3.jpg
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At first I donít see any horses around but then I notice that Arbela is actually founded on top of one, cool! The warrior that popped the hut is in the bottom right of this shot:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200384201115_GA4.jpg
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And in the IT, a barb horse comes out of the fog and kills him. In addition the horse over by Arbela attacks my fortified spearman MP and winsÖ Iím raided for another 8 gold. I have yet to win a battle against a barbarian. They have killed me on mountains, across rivers, in cities Ė neither warrior nor spearman can stand against them. I must be forgetting my ablutions, or perhaps ritual sacrifice could help?

Finally my wandering settler founds Antioch. Meanwhile the Germans have encroached with two more cities on my borders. Donít they have any land to their South? I also win a battle against a barbarian as a horse attacks a fortified spearman in Pasargadae, instead of a fortified spearman across a river in the forest protecting my workers. He promoted and I am sending him to protect my worker trying to connect my first luxury.

The chop of the game forest completes and Pasargadae will finish itís granary soon and become a nice worker/setller farm, though I may need a border expansion to take full advantage.

Hereís a last screen shot. I swapped Persepolis to a worker to help Arbela, I was going to build one out of Arbela but now that I will have two worker/settler locations I want some barracks! I need to start stockpiling warriors asap, I also desparately need to explore more. At least my expansion is going OK, I am now only 16 points behind anarres.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200384201145_GA5.jpg
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Skyfish
05-08-2003, 08:31
I am surprised not to see the famous "3-tile" grid [eek] !
According to anarres and Killer, experienced PBEM players, a tight/close build is key to success in a PBEM.
Especially on Pangea with Riders and Immortals where the chance of this game going Industrial is quasi nihil.

ERIKK
05-08-2003, 08:36
It all depends on how close the two meet and make a decisive move. Also you must nog forget that
taking over the AI's sometimes is not easy at all. Also we dont know the MA and MPP agreements
the have (if any). If their will be a MA pingpong then their expanding will be slowed down.

Skyfish
05-08-2003, 12:40
quote:It all depends on how close the two meet

I dont agree with that because there is no way you will ever meet the other human before you have to start building your first ring.

I know Erikk you are a not a proponent of close builds but I dont understand any of your arguments here... [dunno]

[joker]

Aggie
05-08-2003, 12:53
@Sky: I'm not saying that I agree with ERIKK on every point, but one thing is for sure: if you are talking about anarres and Killer as experienced PBEM-ers, what would ERIKK be?

ERIKK lost a couple of games vs anarres, but those had nothing to do with anarres having the upperhand because of tight build. ERIKK won quite a few games from good players with his type of start.

But I must admit: that was before RCP became known to the whole world.

ERIKK
05-08-2003, 13:06
Hehe, I am sorry but I meant if you do or do not reach Industrial Age (hospitals). In most
of my PBEM games I build hospitals => those cities grew (or workers were added) to 16, 17
etc... I guess you need a bit more lands then the RCP amount to keep such cities.

Reaching the IA:
- if opponents are far away or on continents contact will be late
- if there is early MA pingpong the expanding phase is very much hold back
- if you ar unable to conquer your big AI neighbour... [eek]

I guess you should mix RCP with larger spacing. If there will be a late game you will
be able have some bigger cities too. Look at the spacing I did in the ERIKK vs. Jack
game: it is a mix of RCP and larger spacing.

Gothmog
05-08-2003, 16:57
Don't worry Sky, my build in our game is indeed tighter ;)

In this game I wanted to found Pasargadae where I did so it would have both a wheat and game in its first 9 (and not be ontop of a bonus grass at distance 4). So that's at 4.5 distance, which does allow for a three square in the NSEW directions. The three square grid diagonal directions put me on top of the wheat and on that lake to the SW in my initial exploration. As it turns out I should have founded my city three to the east first, but I did Susa to try and hook my luxuries earlier, also because of barbarian locations. If i had founded a city 3 squares east (distance 4.5), and one somewhere to the North, then Persepolis would only have 9 squares to work anyway. I hope to have a second ring some day at distance 7-8, so this is a close build but not really close, no way will more than a couple cities in my first ring be able to use more than 12 squares. I'll have to see if I regret it later.

My plan atm is to take Germany out with my Immortals. Then build my defences for the inevitable Rider attack.

We have no agreements about MA's or MPP's. That's why I am so worried about getting out to do some exploring. I just can't get a break vs. the barbs.

Skyfish
05-08-2003, 17:36
Aggie it's clear I am not saying Erikk is not an experinced player ! I did not cite his name because he is not a supporter of a tight build.
I find Erikk's arguments quite good and I would like to read anarres' (since Killer is away) as to why he believes a tight build is needed in PBEM. The RCP issue is something that came *after* the tight build debate and somewhat moves its focus away from the heart of the matter.

Gothmog
11-08-2003, 19:09
After building that worker Persepolis cranked out a couple warriors (which you can see in the last screen shot I desperately need) before another settler. I sent that spear about to hit Arbela west to explore some, meanwhile the vet north of Pasargadae was sent to Arbela. I was starting to really worry about not having any more contacts and decided that I could take a few more barbarian raids. I wasnít having luck holding them off anyway, as exemplified by my losing the fortified spear to a barb horse previously in Arbela.
Five turns later I make contact, but not with someone who wants to trade with me:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003811175450_GA1.jpg
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Yup, my first contact since Germany is with the man himself, my mortal enemy [luke2] anarres of China. This is bad as he is going to be able to sell contact with me (though I know he will hold off as long as possible), and he will meet Germany before too long as and sell their contact as well. I am worried that he will buy in Germany against me, which would be bad given my current lack of military. This same lack makes it impossible for me to even run interference between him and Germany. Shit [wallbash].

I decide to keep my spear moving east (I assume thatís where he anarres came from) and I get a big big break.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003811175713_GA2.jpg
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Yup, I meet the Aztec [jump] [wavey] [jump]. I am so excited by this that I hop around the room pumping my fist; my Son Jacob (three years old) joins in my jubilant dance [dance]. I take a break to dwell on my options and donít get back to the game until the next day. While sleeping my options jell. I have a monopoly on contact with the Germans Ė my prime asset. The Germans have a lot of cash. I already know China and so the Aztec donít have a monopoly on the techs they share.
Thus my strategy is to buy tech from the Aztec @3rd, then sell to the Germans @ monopoly. After getting the German treasury I want to trade contact with them to everyone for a few contacts. India and France especially as they will be cheap (from the power graph ranking) and as commercial civs they are the best to buy from. Then I really want writing, the rest of the contacts, and a map. Hereís how it went down:

Horseback Riding from the Aztecs for my WM + 97 gold; sell HB to Germany for 212 gold. :)

Alphabet from the Aztecs for 130 gold; sell to Germany for 87 gold (their remaining treasury).

Contact w/Germany to the Aztecs for contact with the Indians + 47 gold. India has writing but lacks Math that the Aztecs have. They all (Germany included) have myst.

Contact w/Germany + 11 gold to the Indians for contact with France.

Contact w/Germany + WM + 64 gets math from France.

Math + 45 gets writing from India.

The Aztecs and French both have Philosophy and Map Making but India doesnít have either.

OK, I could afford MM but it would break the bank. I have to stop here and take care of my kids for a while. Jacob wants to play on my computer and my other son Roman (9 months), needs attention.

In a chat w/anarres I try to get a temporary ban on MAís here, telling him that I am considering buying the Aztec in against him (I think I could afford it but donít know for sure). He doesnít bite.

I decide that my best move is to buy all the contacts if I can and sell contact w/Germany to everyone. This will deny anarres the opportunity to profit from contacting me or Germany first.

89 gold gets me contact w/the Zulu from India.

Contact w/Germany + WM gets me contact w/Russia + 13 from the Zulu.

Shit, Russia lacks MM and has nothing to give for contact with Germany. I wish I had gotten contact with her firstÖ Ah, I can sell Germany contact with Russia and still profit from that.

Contact with China and Russia go to Germany for Mysticism.

No way I can afford more than a couple TMís so I pass for now.

All in all that went well. I got HB, Alph, Math, Writing, Myst and contact with everyone for contact with Germany + 77 gold! [drunk]

A few turns later I have targeted a distance of 7.5 for my second ring, based on incomplete map data. I get pushed around a bit by the barbs before getting to settle my first 7.5 city in the west - Tarsus. Not where the settler was originally headed. I decide to get a barracks in Persopolis before my next settler from there. Pasargadae also completes a settler, which I send east to a 7.5 spot, it arrives 2 turns after Tarsus was founded and becomes - Gordium.

After completing that settler I have improved the tiles around Pasargadae enough to turn it into a 2 turn worker factory. Now itís one every two turns for as long as I like. This is why I targeted that location for my second city (at distance 4.5) in the first place and my plan has finally reached fruition [thumbsup].

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20038111866_GA3.jpg
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Soon after this I realize there is a brokerage on the table. I consider waiting as none of the techs are absolutely needed right away, but I might be able to get a map out of this and I donít know if anarres will eliminate this brokerage possibility.

The situation:
Germany Ė 116 + Philosophy
India Ė 14 + Philosophy
Zulu Ė 0 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism
Russia Ė 9 + Philosophy + Polytheism + Construction
France Ė 68 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism
Aztec Ė 344 + Philosophy + Map Making + Polytheism

I canít get Construction@ miser, but as I said I canít let this opportunity slip to anarres, in a SP game I would have waited.

I get MM from France for WM + 6 gpt + 179 gold.

MM + 1 gpt + 17 gold gets me Polytheism from Russia.

MM + Poly to Germany for WM + Philosophy + 96 gold.

Poly to India for WM + 14 gold.

[???] Where is China [???]

WM to Russia for WM + 26 gold.

Ah, thereís China [ninja]

WM + 47 to the Zulu for WM, to France for WM + 8, to the Aztec for WM + 21, TM to Germany for 14 gold, India canít afford my map nor can Russia, to Zulu for 16, finally I get 3 more from France.

So I spent 45 + 7 gpt for MM, Poly, Philosophy, and an up to date WM.

I am now up those three techs on anarres.

I spy a nice bottleneck between the area I share with Germany and the rest of the world.

Hereís the current situation.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200381118848_GA4.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200381118916_GA5.jpg
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WildFire
11-08-2003, 19:19
Nice!

Gothmog
11-08-2003, 20:14
Thanks WildFire.

Does anyone know what the cost of upgrading a warrior to Immortal is?

Skyfish
11-08-2003, 20:35
Exactly the same as a swordsman my friend : 40g ! Isn't it exploitative ? [lol]

Very nice spoiler, it reads like a T-Hawk trading turn ;) :D
Who says you were the warmonger anyway ? [lol]

Gothmog
11-08-2003, 20:53
Thanks Sky...

exploitive? there's that word again. I'm not sure what that means in the context of a PBEM.

I'm no warmonger, just my avatar looks that way [declares war on Skyfish].

I did offer anarres the opportunity to surrender! more than once in fact [happy]

Skyfish
11-08-2003, 22:29
It's not because it's a PBEM that there's no exploit anymore man ! [eek]
You've listened to anarres too much lately...

Gothmog
11-08-2003, 23:40
Mass upgrades are a sort of exploit because the computer doesn't take full advantage of it the way humans do, same for prebuilds. In a human on human game, both players can use mass upgrades or not at their choice. Are you suggesting that we forgo the use of mass-upgrades in sucession games? IMO it makes even less sense in PBEM games.

I haven't been listening to anarres, this is how I've always felt. Search my posts @ CFC and you will see a consistent POV.

Gothmog
15-08-2003, 16:07
Small update this time, I just did my first human-human trade. I sent anarres 250 gold + WM for currency.

I knew he was most likely at war with the aztecs, zulu, and germans as he hadn't sent them currency yet although they had some stuff to offer. He also told me he was at war with the aztec. So I hoped to get some of that cash back from trades with them.

Then I had a moment of panic last night when I thought he would most likely use currency to get peace with those civ's after making the trade with me. I really need to get used to playing with a human.

Thankfully, of those three only the aztecs got currency on his turn. So I sold currency to the Zulu for their treasury (164 gold) + WM, and then to the Germans for their treasury (16) + a worker + WM. I then was able to sell around my new WM for another 13 gold, I will get more from this when some broke civ's get some gold.

Not a bad deal, I'm guessing that anarres is using the cash to fund deficit research.

I have founded a city 3 squares SW of Arbela and have another settler about to complete.

I now have a bunch of workers and will start to merge them into low growth cities soon.

Germany doesn't have any Iron, so I'm not feeling to pressured to attack them. I'll get to it when I'm ready.

Skyfish
15-08-2003, 19:06
The exploitative remark was a joke :D
Still it's not fair that Immortals are the same price as swords, i.e the Sipahis have better attack but they are substantially more expensive to produce.
I still believe there are limits in PBEM and the statement that "nothing is exploitative in PBEM" is a bit far fetched.
I understand where it comes from however it still remains against my nature to blatantly exploit every lil bug or AI mannerisms in the game jsut because your ennemy is human and not AI.

Gothmog
15-08-2003, 19:20
I don't think the immortal is overpowered when compared to the rider. I fear the rider, and their timing is perfect for PBEM games. Not to mention that the MI is just like an immortal at a higher cost.

But since you brought it up, what lil bugs or AI mannerisms don't you exploit in your PBEM games? [mischief]

[satan]

Skyfish
15-08-2003, 20:07
I play RBCiv rules ! Dastardly but not exploitative [wallbash]
[slay]

Gothmog
15-08-2003, 20:47
So, when I come for your continent. I shouldn't expect any 'amphibious blockades' as we saw in anarres vs. CB (w/non-military units that is)?

yndy
16-08-2003, 10:53
Game is going nice Gothmog. Goodjob.

Skyfish
16-08-2003, 14:41
Oh no, no amphibious blockades :D Just a real nice welcoming party !
Actualy doing a blockade on a continent is also called "suicide wastage".... ;)

Gothmog
19-08-2003, 21:43
So a couple of turns later the Germans make their first threat on me. They want my WM, which I have never traded to them. Maybe a couple gold too but not much. I cave, my military is still weak and the Germans have a number of archers using the Deity RoP in my territory atm.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003819204022_GvA1.jpg
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And I look forward to kicking your behind. The friendship of our people will be secure when every German bows to Xerxes and have experienced the Phobias

I kept pumping out settlers from Persepolis and workers from Pasargadae; meanwhile I started to pump up a few cities with barracks to enable them to produce a warrior every two turns.


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My research was off, and I was saving cash for the eventual Immortal upgrade. I noticed that CoL, Lit, and Construction were all available for brokerage. This would put me in the middle ages and I could profit from my free tech! So I go for it. I get Lit from France for 147+WM, then CoL from Russia for WM+Lit+72, and finally Construction from the French for CoL+7gpt+148. My free tech was Feudalism; Russia was already in the middle ages and got Feudalism too [:|]. I sell it to France for 450+WM, I note that anarres doesnít have it yet; I sell it to the Aztecs for 148+WM. No one else can afford it.

I tell anarres to let me know when he finishes researching republic. He thinks that's funny. From his other spoilers I assume he is doing deficit research on it now. I start a min run on Republic, just in case I donít end up being able to buy it in the next 40 turns, plus if I do buy it Iíll get roughly the same discount from my 10% run as I put in to it.

I decide that the time is ripe to get some embassies, as I will still have cash for upgrades when the time comes Ė and I lessen the possibility of more demands.
With Russia for 70g Ė at war with everyone but Germany and China
With the Zulu for 94g Ė at war with Russia and China
With France for 60g Ė at war with Russia only
With the Aztec for 89g Ė at war with China and Russia.

On my next turn I find an uprising or two from my southwest. I briefly hook up Iron and create a couple immortals for slaying barbarian horses on mountains. Here is the situation a couple turns later.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003819204153_GvA3.jpg
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The first horse kills my fortified regular warrior in the picture (a spear and a warrior had been slain last turn), and then the next three each take about 50 gold from my treasury. That was the worst they did to me, not too good not too bad.

Iíve continued to prepare for war and at one point the Germans had a number of archer in threatening positions, so I hooked up my Iron and upgraded a bunch of warriors. Iím pretty low on gold, under 100, and am actually building Immortals now. Here are some recent stats. Some improvement has been made in my demographics!

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So at this point I have 10 or so Immortals with a couple finishing next turn. I could easily take out some German cities etc. But that would set off my GA. The Germans are trading for Iron with someone now (must be through a harbor). I am torn between wanting to take Germany down right now, continuing to build military but also getting some markets and libraries done with my GA; and wanting to take a little break, build some markets and libraries, get into republic, and then kick off my GA.

In a solo game I would just go for Germany now and use my GA to swamp them, but here I am more worried about maximizing my GA than I would be in that case. Also I am more likely to leave the Germans alive so I can leader fish and potentially take advantage of their free tech. Opinions?

Skyfish
20-08-2003, 09:33
Hm... difficult choice [scratch]
The GA boost is still good to build mps, courthouses and libs and I am sure you will not need tons of immortals to take out Germany. If I were you I would follow anarres closely and trigger your GA when he does ! I am sure he will use his Riders at the first opportunity he can get... Maybe the timing could be right between the time he gets to Chivalry and the time you get Republic and end of Anarchy [groucho]
If you strike early, I would gift techs to Germany to get into the MA so you can get their free tech and then strike :D

Gothmog
20-08-2003, 17:23
One of the problems I have is that Germany did get to the middle ages recently, and seemingly got feudalism as their free tech too! That's three out of three scientific civ's. What patch is this anyway, while I haven't seen any pikes or even swords they could trade for iron and start building them any time. So striking now is a better military option.

Looking at it last night I think I may go now as it would also let me settle another first ring city and a couple second ring cities as well. Not to mention getting started on my second core. But if I just wait a bit I'll be in republic for my GA...

Aargh, I am really torn.

Skyfish
20-08-2003, 21:05
A bit ? what do you really mean by "a bit" ? There's no way to know how long it will take for the AIs to search Republic + if you can afford it + the anarchy period...Or do you have indeed an idea of how long it could be ?

Gothmog
20-08-2003, 21:33
Well I have an upper limit of 27 turns until I get Republic from my 40 turn research, it was 28 in the screen shot above and I played one last night. The anarchy period is another matter. Even if I decided to go to war immediately it would be another 5 turns or so until I had troops in position for my first strike (taking out the three nearest cities).

I assume that anarres is doing max research towards it right now, and I would guess that a couple AI's are too. It might become available in 10 turns or so? I would buy it right away if at all possible (preferably from Germany, [evil])

Gothmog
22-08-2003, 15:54
I have decided to start the war now. Germany currently lacks iron and a couple scouts show spears defending [hammer]

My final decision came down to a few things:

1. Germany is building 3 wonders atm and should fall like a cardboard cutout.

2. I will be able to build another first ring city and two or three second ring cities immediately.

3. I will get an early start on my second core, and hopfully get a leader for my FP.

4. I will get a good boost from my GA even as a despot. The difference isn't that much in my current situation, reasons 2 and 3 above will compensate for this loss.

5. I will be done with my GA just as I want to revolt to Republic.

6. Anarres doesn't have riders yet and I should be able to finish off Germany in time to prepare for any attack from him (Feud is still the only MA tech out there), if I wait I risk a two front war. This last one was the final straw. Anarres is at war and currently has the biggest military, when he upgrades his horses he will be strong. I need to take out Germany and prepare myself.

Skyfish
22-08-2003, 16:37
That's the right decision and from knowing his games, the one that your opponent would have chosen I believe ;)

Lately I have been using my Despot GAs to selfresearch Republic and found it was pretty effective and valuable :
- added commerce of GA increases capacity to run max science with minimum loss
- it still costs less than buying
- the boost of early Republic is always important : if anarres is in Republic 20 turns before you it will be a major advantage to him.
- Searching @2nd is also good : you can run min sci on it and build up money, every turn you check for the cost of it, when it drops it means anarres has it (or an AI gets it before him and then spares you the checking by "beakers left") then you can start searhing at max at a substantial discount over him.

Just some chieftain ideas they might not apply to your game as it is right now... :D

Gothmog
22-08-2003, 16:47
It might have been optimal for me to attack 10-20 turns ago and then self research republic as you suggest. That was actually more or less my plan, but it was dashed by the size of the uprising against me. I lost a good number of troops to the barbs.

I am running 10% on republic and checking the research time every turn, I may yet turn on research for it - or buy it from the AI since I assume some of them are researching it too. The tech pace has been slowed somewhat by a lot of AI war and the fact that all three scientific civs got the same MA tech.

Skyfish
22-08-2003, 22:30
Ok so :
- how many Immortals you got now ?
- how much gpt are you making ?
- are you gonna RoP rape them ?
- are you going to raze cities or capture ?
- have you got that neck of land block already ?
- and when exactly are you going to start taking out Germany ?

Gothmog
22-08-2003, 23:37
I have 12 immortals that are moving out right now in two stacks of 6 to raze the german cities to my east and south. I have a couple others on my eastern border dealing with barbs (almost done there) and another in Gordium for defence up there.

I'm making like 37 gpt (with 7gpt still going to france), but I had to raise luxury tax as some of my MP's moved out to conquer Germany so I think its more like 30 gpt now.

My units are currently on their border, in my turn tonight I am going to declare war honorably and then move into their territory.

I am going to raze most cities, until I get near the end and then I may keep the last few. I already have a settler waiting to go and two more being produced within the next couple rounds.

Once I have replaced a few german cities I plan to send a settler out to the neck there. Anarres is not in republic yet and only has Feudalism so it will be a little while until he gets chivalry.

Skyfish
23-08-2003, 07:53
Have you thought about the effect of the FP on RCP ?

Gothmog
23-08-2003, 16:16
My greatest wish is to get a GL during this war, if I do than I can rush a FP in the middle of Germany's lands and have two full cores, with no overlap in the first two rings. If I don't get a GL, then I will have to consider building my FP in a second ring city towards the german lands. Still that would suck as I have a really nice RCP going now.

ERIKK
23-08-2003, 16:52
12 immortals without spears covering them? You should consider protecting them as a spear is
cheaper than a sword. Also build/send some horses with them as they can soften defense and
move faster to the front.

Gothmog
23-08-2003, 17:44
I have a couple spears, but no horses yet. I crippled Germany with my worker purchases early, then they were at war with anarres and built alot of archer, since then they have been in expansion mode again (as well as building wonders in their 3 best cities). They do not have iron, and I haven't seen even a sword yet. Also there are some pretty good mountain ranges to walk along on my way. But I am producing some mixed arms now to send to the front cause it will take me a while to walk to Berlin [evil], so they could trade for iron and build a few good troops. It is hard to spend 20 shield on a 1/2 unit when I can spend 30 on a 4/2 unit!!!

I just declared war on Germany, they didn't even attack any of my Immortals. The had a couple archers in the south that could have attacked (over a river), but moved towards my core instead. I'll have a nice welcoming party waiting for them. So I start my GA next turn! Priorities are courthouses and some horses.

Gothmog
12-09-2003, 19:51
As promised!
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/200391218460_GA1.jpg
4.39KB

And a couple more attacks brought this result.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184632_GA2.jpg
70.57KB

I had a settler in that stack so I got a new first ring city.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184653_GA3.jpg
49KB

Same result from my attack on Munich in the South.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184721_GA4.jpg
37.38KB

A few turns later I have met no real resistance. I decide to start keeping cities that donít interfere with my settling plans.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184743_GA5.jpg
42.62KB

Unfortunately for the citizens of Nuremberg I wanted it one square to the West to fit on my RCP scheme. That little stack oí Germans in the SW has a settler under the spear and founds a city there in the IT.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184816_GA6.jpg
71.6KB

I have been building settlers and have continued to merge native workers so I am always happy for another slave, even if I do have a few Germans too.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184839_GM7.jpg
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Here is what a Golden Age can do for you.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184859_GM8.jpg
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Shaka wants a little donation, I oblige. Maybe he can use it to help put the hurt on China???

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184924_GM9.jpg
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Here is an overview of my current empire, looks pretty good to me.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003912184958_GM10.jpg
112.03KB

Anarres still hasnít revolted to Republic. I'm using my GA mostly for infrastructure. I've had 6 elite victories already, I've only lost 2 or 3 Immortals.

Gothmog
25-09-2003, 22:16
I continue to stomp on the Germans and have had a good number more elite victories but no leaders [cry]. Then I see that the republic has been traded around. I am still 10 turns away in my min research run so I decide to extort Biz:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003925211331_GvA1.jpg

That leaves him with just two cities on the east end the world, I will relieve him of those in 20 turns [evil]. Germany has been bought into war with Russia and keeps sending troops through my lands, every turn I ask him to leave and every turn he does.

Russia is going to die soon, so I take two of her workers for Engineering. I briefly consider starting a dogpile on Anarres while he is in anarchy, but decide not to. I am not sure why.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003925211444_GvA2.jpg

While I am revolting to Republic, a revolting thing happensÖ

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003925211519_GvA3.jpg

I somehow restrain myself from declaring war right off, I have a spotless rep upto now and I would like to keep it that way. Though I could renegotiate peace with the rest of the world anyway.

When I emerge from Anarchy I am #2 in the world in most things, looking at the map I am assuming that Anarres holds the #1 spot. He must have leader rushed his FP, just like he did Leoís. I am still hoping to get a leader from my upcoming war with Germany to rush the FP, if not I may declare war on India just so I can leader fish.

I decide to research Monotheism so I can trade it for Invention, I go max. But a few turns before I will get it, everyone else has it!?! So I buy from the Zulu for some change.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003925211612_GvA4.jpg

This is a big disadvantage of going second as I am sure Anarres was part of the little trade fest that left everyone else with Monotheism. This time I know I am starting research at the same time as everyone else so I go for Theology @ max, I have the #2 economy (#1 per capita) and I am pretty sure I have more libraries than Anarres given all the wars he has waged. So I am reasonably confident I will get it first. At this point I want to start pushing the tech pace anyway to make the age of Knights (i.e. Riders) as quick as possible.

Next turn my twenty with Germany are up and I will put him out of his misery.

Skyfish
25-09-2003, 23:55
Well you've played brilliantly so far, getting Republic at the same time as everyone else and taking care of the Krauts.
Indeed anarres will make you feel the pain of being second, it aint funny sometimes [sad]
Any turns left on your GA ?
I sincerely hope you get that Leader for your FP or else it looks like anarres could start speeding ahead...it wouldnt be fair !

Gothmog
26-09-2003, 15:41
My GA ended a couple turns after I aquired Republic, I waited to change governments until it ended. I pulled 7 turns of anarchy [sad]. Another big hit to me was that when Kronigsberg deposed I lost Silk, and Gems were cut off from the rest of my empire. I've had to run 10% lux because I didn't have markets up in my former worker/settler farms yet. I've now outsourced worker/settler building to my corrupt cities with lots o' food, and built a market in Persepolis and the one for Pasargadae comes online in a couple turns. Plus I will own Kronigsberg next turn, I should wipe Germany out completely at that point... unless they have a settler on a galley. I saw one trying to escape about 10 turns ago but it was destroyed by two barb galleys [lol].

I don't think I am very far behind Anarres, a close second at this point. I am pretty sure my infrastructure is better due to my GA (I am #1 in gold per capita) and I have lot o' libraries. But that will change as he develops his second core, unless I can get my FP online. That is why I will declare on India if I don't get a leader destroying Germany. I have 6 elites in position to attack next turn ...crosses fingers...

I am pretty sure that I will get through the age of Riders intact, I have a nice mountain range to defend and I don't think Anarres will try a naval invasion (though I will take some necessary precautions). But if I don't get a FP and he uses his GA wisely he could indeed speed ahead.

Funny thing about this game is that both Anarres and I were already the strongest civ's from nearly the getgo. The poor AI never had a chance. That is one reason I never did a dogpile, I don't think it would have hut Anarres at all. Same goes the other way.

Skyfish
26-09-2003, 16:40
Indeed I dont believe the Riders will cause you problems, however I would push as fast as possible towards Mil. Trad. in order to outdate his Riders sooner rather than later ;)
About the AIs : when 2 players of that caliber are in the same game there is abolutely NO WAY an AI stands a chance... Deity level PBEM is a fair notch under Deity SP.

ERIKK
26-09-2003, 20:07
I agree with SkyFish!

(Too bad (luck) about the flip by the way...)

Gothmog
29-09-2003, 19:24
Quick update this time, I killed off the Germans and got a leader on the 4th elite attack.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003929181417_smilie_zoom.gif

I named the unit 'Holy Mother of Mercy'... I almost cried. Thank you RNG, thank you.

In other news I had one turn left on research towards Theology and no one else had it, then when I hit the end turn button I got the 'France starts the Sistine' message [aargh]. For whatever reason neither france nor anarres brokered it around (most of the AI's are broke and anarres is probably saving up for Rider upgrades), so I was still able to trade it for invention, and I found out that France already has Gunpowder. I forgot to check what I have that anarres does not. I assume he is going for Chivalry, and should have it soon. I decided to research Education @max and hopefully trade it to France for Gunpowder and spread that around. I am hoping that France will go for Chivalry (or Chemistry) now, if not I will research it next and trade or give it to all the AI's. Depending on the situation I will then go for Banks and Smiths (I have a prebuild allready), or Chem and push to Military Tradition.

I forget what the Domination limit is as a % (if I ever knew), I just need to make sure anarres doesn't sneak up on it with his riders.

Skyfish
29-09-2003, 19:40
[:o)] [jump] [band] [drunk] [dance] [goggle] [joker]

ERIKK
29-09-2003, 21:14
[lol]
...seems you are generating interesting comments from certain other forum member Gothmog!

Gothmog
02-10-2003, 16:28
Well Riders have arrived on the scene (I assume). Anarres is probably in his GA now. At the begining of this turn I found China at war with the Zulu (who were also at war with India and the Aztecs). I assume anarres brought those two in against Shaka, to give him other worries.

So I called up Shaka and got an MA vs China and India and he threw in Dyes, nice! I took the MA vs. India to take pressure off Shaka, do some leader fishing, and get them off my peninsula, they also have two galley that have been circling around my area for a while and I assume they are going to drop off a couple settlers to my south.

Then I called up France just to see what it would cost to bring them in vs. China. Turns out they don't like anarres much and wouldn't accept more than 8 gpt for a MA, I'm guessing that anarres tried to get them vs. the Zulu but they wouldn't bite. I didn't call up the aztecs as they are too weak to make a difference and I think they are in a MA with China anyway (I actually forgot to check the dotted lines, I'll have to do that tonight).

I'm still three turns from education, which I will then be able to trade for Gunpowder. I hope Joan and Shaka have been researching something else too, otherwise I may have to research Chiv myself. I would rather go right for MT.

I have built a galley in my south and found a little island of the coast, if there is a path all the way to China I may stage a little back door invasion in 10-15 turns.

Skyfish
02-10-2003, 17:31
quote:I may stage a little back door invasion in 10-15 turns

Wow ! That would be the best !
anarres sure hates those (doesn't he Kemal?) [lol]
How many Galleys can you produce in 15 turns ?

Gothmog
02-10-2003, 19:20
I'm on the north end of the little island now, but there are a few barb galleys swarming me so I may not get to see if the link exists right away.
I have a number of costal cities in the south-west now that have been producing workers and settlers (corrupt). But they can be swapped to galleys.
I have been running deficit research but still have about 800 gold so I should be able to produce a good number - maybe 7-10?
The idea wouldn't be a crushing blow, but to get value from my forces - delay and distract. Open up a new front to make him bring his forces home.
I would need to move some muskets into position too (I don't have GP yet but will have it as soon as I get education).

He wont be expecting anything before astronomy so I have some time to work out the details. He may already know that such an invasion is impossible from his own Galleys (I don't know if he has built any for sure). It is surely worth a look anyway.

Gothmog
13-10-2003, 19:25
Well Iíve played honorably but I still get fucked. http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003828193150_po.gif I was hoping that a diplo victory would be an option, but this will make it much tougher. Hereís what Iím talking about. France researched Education three turns before I was going to get it, the Zulu donít have it but have Gunpowder so I buy it from France for straight cash Ė 50 gold or something. Then I get this bullshit from Shaka:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20031013181912_GvA1.jpg
20.46 KB

[:o] [mad3] What the fuck [confused] [slanteye] The only deal I ever made with Shaka was the MA vs China and he gave me Dyes, I gave nothing. The trade route was broken by Anarres and I get blamed for nothing [wallbash] actually for less than nothing as I actually lost the Dyes. I check with france and get this:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20031013181937_GvA2.jpg
14.52 KB

Man oí man, [aargh] http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003828193229_flipthebird.gif. I was giving the Aztecs Iron for a few gpt and Anarres bought him into a MA vs. me and I get blamed for that tooÖ http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2003828193335_oughta.gif

I guess I should have alied with them too, I didnít think it would be important. So I am forced to renegotiate peace with Shaka to get Gunpowder, I need to keep up appearances or Anarres will surely come for me. At least Shaka got Chivalry in the meantime.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/20031013182049_GvA3.jpg
18.28 KB

I upgrade a bunch of horses to Knight. The two galleys I had maping the island route to China both were sunk, one by an Indian Galley and the other by a barb one. Since India was exploring down there I am sure Anarres has a map of the area now, I am still not sure if there is a spot where a Galley can cross and I donít know if India found one either. I am planning to make peace with India when they will talk and give them some tech for a MA vs. China. I already destroyed their cities near me and the war is now a fake. Iíll try to get a map then, I also have another Galley headed down there.

Now that my reputation is shot I am really pissed that I waited to retake Konigsberg when it flipped to the Germans. That cost me quite a bit. Ah well, now I have to rethink my overall strategy. Anarres is bigger than me now, I am not sure if his GA has ended yet (I donít think so). FehÖ [mad2]

Gothmog
24-11-2003, 23:35
So things haven't improved much for me in this one. I decided to research banking and economics to snag Smiths rather than beeline towards MT, France had been pushing the research on that path anyway - and fast too. I get banking first (anarres doesn't have it yet) and trade it with 105 gold to France for Chemistry and Astronomy. I then sell around Astronomy to India and Shaka for 45 gpt and 28 gpt respectively, Shaka will be gone soon but I may as well get something from him. A couple turns later I discover that there is no path for galleys across the southern gap. At this point it may be that I should have pushed right for MT, but I did not. I wanted Smiths. Next I did research Metallurgy, France got it first and I bought the last couple turns from them. At this point I noticed that anarres is already in the Industrial age, and is starting to assault France in earnest. I just got MT this turn (again France got there 1 turn before me so I can't trade it for anything) and have upgraded all my knights (25 or so), I need to use them before they are obsolete, but I am leary of anarres's huge size and power. This one may have gotten away from me, but it's not over yet. Anarres's GA is finally over but he still outproduces me even though my infrastructure is much better than his, I need to hope that my free tech is steam for the rails, if he has those for too much longer than me I'll get swamped.

Skyfish
25-11-2003, 10:49
Great to see an update !
We have been reading's anarres spoiler so we are eager to know your side of the story :)

IS there anyway you can strike anarres with Cavs or jsut you are just beelining for Rails and then play for a defensive war on the isthmus ?
Anybody else in Industrial Age atm ?

Gothmog
25-11-2003, 16:16
Only anarres is in the industrial age, France is behind by physics and India is behind by Economics. Neither has anything to give.

I am torn by my decisions atm, anarres did a masterful job with his GA and UU. He built in a dense pattern and seems to bootstrap his cities out of nowhere. I've always thought that the two cores were everything, but he seems to get production futher out (judging from his infrastructure/production vs mine). My second core isn't that great.

Because of the geography he has been at war and gaining GL's (and AI wonders) and I cannot strike at anyone. I have to advance up the isthmus, I thought about a naval assault on his east coast (former Russia), but it would take a lot of preparation. I am going to send out some cav and muskets just to test his defense, but I am not very hopeful. I am certainly beelining for Rails but I'll need to do 4 turn research on ToG and Mag first, as I am getting no help from the AI and don't have an embassy w/China. I'm 2 turns into Mag atm. Assuming he is doing deficite research on Rails he will get it pretty soon. I'm not too far behind, but if he gets ToE and Hoover that could change quick.

Skyfish
25-11-2003, 21:51
He is indeed of the Bamspeedy school of thought ;) He loves having ahuge number of cities and it does make him rich, at this stage he is probably skimming tons of workers from these cities...
If you are going to strike him it better be fast and before he gets rails, he could have 150+ workers/slaves at this stage he will have his military railroad network up in no time. He is very good at planning these things, his workers will be in place everywhere on the turn he gets Steam.

What I can guarantee you from experience is that his core right now his without defence :D
(and I have no knowledge at all about this from his spoilers or whatsoever....)
You got Navigation, just go destroy his Wonders boy !

ERIKK
25-11-2003, 22:28
I agree with Sky, I forgot his part of the story but I know from experience how anarres works.
If you wanna strike you should strike BEFORE he has rails!

Skyfish
25-11-2003, 22:50
Just got thinking :
- Advantage of RCP : Destroy his capital, his Palace will jump god knows who and totally fuck up the production/corrution of his empire !
- Disadavantage of RCP : Destroy his capital, his Palace jumps very far away and he gets a huge production boost from the "far palace bug"

[crazyeye] [crazyeye] [crazyeye]

Gothmog
05-01-2004, 18:35
Quick update. I got into the industrial age and pulled steam! anarres already has it though. I was going max on electricity (6 turns @ deficit?) when the price dropped and I'll now get it in 5 total @ a surplus. So I guess anarres has that too. Looks like I am catching up with him in tech though. I am going to go max on medicine next and see if I can somehow beat him to the ToE. I have a prebuild going, which reminds me I need to start one for Hoover too. I really didn't think I'd have any chance at the ToE. My second core is starting to be a real asset.

My military is average compared with him (he has conquered most of india now), and I had 13 Cav on his border with a few more behind but I haven't been able to attack. My only spots are over a river into a walled city, or onto a mountain (against fortified muskets). I didn't have enough muskets to support a slog into the open field (IMO). So looks like tanks will be on the scene before any real assaults happen. Hopefuly he wont win by domination by then. I am still founding cities here and there, and will soon found one in striking distance of his borders on the other side of the isthmus.

Gothmog
08-01-2004, 17:52
Hmm, I was just looking at my prebuild last night and came to the conclusion that it will not be ready when I get SM. It will be close but not quite there yet, maybe 3-5 turns. I could have squeezed more out of that land too, I didn't want to RR mountains early on but I should have. [aargh] I didn't think I had any chance when I started the prebuild (still just a slim hope).

Then I got to thinking that atm only the palace is available for prebuilds (I mention above that I wanted to start one for Hoover too). So the question becomes, do I 'let' anarres get the ToE and then research myself to Electronics and snag hoover before anarres can amass 800 shields from scratch? or do I snag ToE (if I can - may be out of my hands) and then research industry and let Hoover fall where it may.

I think I can get hoover if anarres takes ToE, but then he would be back ahead in tecs and might swamp me with tanks. Also I would have to wait on industry, which would put me even farther behind in production...

In other news, anarres made a minor move, puting two workers in position to build a RR from where he could assault one of my border cities on the isthmus with cav. I'm pulling my troops back to defence.

Skyfish
08-01-2004, 19:38
Screenshot please !
Tough call on the Hoover : I would not let ToE pass though...

Gothmog
27-01-2004, 15:59
Well, I'll finally get around to a screenshot here. Sorry but I had some RL issues and a new computer to boot.

I got medicine in 5 turns and saved up some gold, meanwhile anarres researched RP (he has infantry now). I don't know if he has medicine too. I am going to do a 4 turn run on SM (I may lose a building or two) and try to get ToE. I am not sure if my prebuild will be ready the turn I get SM, or the turn after. I'm not used to such tight MM. If he takes ToE I'll beeline to Electronics and try to get Hoover (I should get it if he doesn't get or have a leader). If I get ToE then I think he has Hoover in the bag.

I don't know much about tech prices, I believe that Atomic Theory and Electronics are more expensive by far but I am tempted to take Industrialization and Atomic Theory so I can start Factories right away and get a production jump on anarres. Since anarres has RP already I should be able to research that pretty quick.

anyhow here is a screenshot of my wonder city Pasargadae

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2004127145823_Pasargadae.jpg

and my core and border with anarres

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/gothmog/2004127145911_AvGM.jpg

Yes, he is huge. All I can do is keep on keeping on at this point.

col
27-01-2004, 16:36
How far is he off the dom limit? Its looks like he'll go over it when he expands all his borders.

Gothmog
27-01-2004, 18:08
I have no idea about the dom limit, I have been a bit worried but there is little I can do AFAIK. He has infantry remember.

There are a number of islands and I know that dom includes those and their costal tiles so maybe I'm OK? or maybe not.

He has just landed on the last french holdings and will get those squares too.

I've never lost by dom to the best of my memory and I don't like to spend time counting tiles. Maybe I'm due.

It doesn't do me any good to expand my borders, right? It only matters what % of the total eligible tiles he owns, IIRC.

col
27-01-2004, 18:12
You need to keep him off as many islands as you can. Looking at the minimap, I'd say he's about to win. C3C's victory screen shows how close your opponent is getting. Mapstat will do the same - but I'm not sure of its status in pbem games. I doubt if anyone has forbidden its use.

I'd use it to check how far off Anarres is (if its allowed)

Gothmog
27-01-2004, 18:41
We're playing in PTW so no victory screen (that is a nice feature in conquests btw).

I've never used Mapstat either, I don't know if we have any restrictions on it. I don't think so.

Skyfish
27-01-2004, 20:33
Mapstat is allowed.
If you send me the save Gothmog I can do it for you (I know the admin pw).

Skyfish
28-01-2004, 14:51
I got good news for you I think, it would seem he is still far off the limit in tiles, even though his Pop is massive.
Check it out, I hope col can help decipher these shots, he is far more experienced at this than the 2 of us [blush2] :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/200412814356_GothmogPBEM1.jpg


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2004128134951_GothmogPBEM2.jpg


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/200412813513_GothmogPBEM3.jpg

col
28-01-2004, 15:36
What is clear is that Anarres needs another 429 tiles to reach the dom limit.
What isnt clear is how many of those he will get when his cities expand. A city expands from 9 to 21 - thats about 10 per city extra when they expand allowing for a little overlap. Thats about 40 -50 cities worth. Looking at the north of his continent suggests that he will get quite a lot but maybe not quite enough. You can be sure that Anarres will count square by square. Erikk made that mistake in second game with Anarres and lost by dom when he didnt expect it.

The dom limit is 2/3 of the tiles and 2/3 of the pop. He already has reached the pop dom limit! That continent looks twice as big as yours. You certainly need to aim at keeping him out of all islands. The dom limit includes all those - and their sea tiles.

Skyfish
28-01-2004, 15:51
I believe that what he has now + expansions will not be enough for Dom...
It also seems to me there are loads of little islands on this map because he still so far away !
Consider that he has to expand almost as much as what Gothmog already has [eek] [eek]
If you see his territory growing you will have to attack him in the north though to limit his advance...
You're in a tight spot anyway, buddy [sad]

col
28-01-2004, 16:21
Maybe there are lots of little islands in the black bits of the map. There 659 unclaimed tiles which is a lot! Who made it?

Gothmog
29-01-2004, 16:22
Thanks guys, I know I am in a tight spot but I wont roll over... hey I survived Sid!! surviving anarres is another matter though.

I know the domination tile count includes some water squares, I am not sure if it is just coast or if it includes sea tiles too. I know that it is possible to 'own' sea tiles so it probably does include those. That is alot of expanding, and you can see all the sea tiles between my empire and anarres'. Heck I don't even own most of the sea tiles around my area.

I'll have to protect/settle those islands to my south... once I get infantry. From what I see above, even if I am wrong about the sea tile I'll need 230 tiles to stop him - including coast tiles I don't own but that are adjacent to my territory. Heck I see 20-30 of those just in the screenie above. Any idea about the sea tiles / coast tiles question? If it includes sea tiles it will be much easier.

Once a bunch more of anarres' cities expand maybe you could do another count for me Sky? or I'll have to suck it up and download mapstat. I am sure anarres has counted all the tiles and knows exactly what he has to do to win by dom.

Skyfish
29-01-2004, 16:33
No need to to d/l Mapstat ;)

Skyfish
29-01-2004, 16:36
No need to d/l Mapstat ;)

Gothmog
02-02-2004, 21:36
Well, I get Scientific Method next turn and anarres hasn't built ToE yet. I didn't even have to sell off a building as the second turn researching I completed a Uni and was able to lower research to 90%. Then last night I was able to lower it to 80% and still get it in 1. My prebuild is going to be very close... we'll see.

I am leaning heavily towards taking industrialization as one of the techs if I get ToE. I've already started a few prebuilds (though I should have started more).

anarres has started shelling some of my troops near our shared border but is not comming for me, even though I only have muskets.

Kemal
03-02-2004, 10:23
As for your question concerning sea tiles and the domination limit, I'm sorry but even though you can claim them for your empire, they do not count towards the domination limit.

I guess that a very precise count of unclaimed tiles near your empire needs to be done to see whether you need to capture those other two islands to the south or not...

ProPain
03-02-2004, 13:07
If I were you I'd go for a big military build up. Even if anarres doesnt get all the tiles he needs for domination from expanding, he'll probably only needs just a little of your land to reach domination anyway. I'd expect an attack soon after his borders have all expanded.

Gothmog
03-02-2004, 18:07
Thanks for the info, coastal tiles only. I guess I'll have to do a count tonight. anarres didn't send me a turn yesterday.

I was doing some military build up and I thought he might make an attack after he got infantry and arti (I still have only muskets). He hasn't come for me yet and I'll have infantry within a few more turns. Once I have infantry he will need tanks I would think.

All this has made me suspect that he has already done the count and believes he will win without attacking me, possibly without settling the island between us.

anarres
22-03-2004, 00:02
I just read the whole thread and it's a great read! :)

The only minor plan in action at the end time was the shelling of units every turn and inflicting WW. I could take lots of WWP without feeling it because I had all 8 lux's, and my plan was to cause Gothmog to fall from Republic before I hit researched tanks (my long term plan).

I had checked map stat and there the dom limit was just out of reach, even with the islands.

I would love to play you again in C3C Gothmog - this game was very lucky for me becuase of the GL for the FP, without which I would have suffered terribly.

Gothmog
22-03-2004, 21:52
Heh, I wondered about domination as you saw in the thread.

As for my wrap up.

The final straw was that I thought I had the ToE wrapped up and was using the palace as a prebuild for a factory in my Iron Works city. I guess I forgot that you could research Scientific Method and scroll ahead to swap to the ToE and get it before the turn got back to me (with you being player 1, I assume that's what happened). I shouldn't have used the palace as a prebuild. I had hoped to get Hover if not the ToE, I needed a bit of hope. Had I not blown my prebuild for Hoover I would have kept on keeping on.

So thanks for the game, well played. I was a bit too passive. I thought my location was good from the start - obviously the lux were initially good and only germany to kill. I did get pretty fucked by the barbs in the beginning and by an uprising. Also, I should have just retaken that city that flipped to the Germans. My reputation didn't last and that was a crucial time of the game for me.

Upon reflection my biggest problem ended up being that by the time I had my area wrapped up anarres had his UU and GA going full strength. Due to the geography I couldn't go to war with any of the AI's without being vulnerable in the field, and so couldn't get more lux etc. While anarres had lots of tasty AI opponents to conquer and leader fish. So my location was a blessing and a curse.