CKII: Saxy billen

[Shabbaman]

So now I am playing Crusader Kings 2, because I figured that after EUIII nothing could daze me. I read the ck2 wiki (http://ckiiwiki.com/Crusader_Kings_II_Wiki) and took their advice to look for a lord with more than 1 county (with a county being the smallest land unit) and not too many vassals. My initial thought was to pick Northumberland, but small independent nations are apparently very hard. My second thought was to pick Baden, but Baden is a one county nobody (as it should be). What'd be cool is to let Burgundy grow to the power it is at the start of EUIII, but Burgundy is a one county nobody as well. That's a challenge for later... The real challenge would be to rule the world as Friesland, but starting as a 2 county without vassals is boring because you have no income. There's another thing with de jure territory, meaning that you can claim (http://ckiiwiki.com/Claims) territory that is rightfully yours. It seems as if Gelre has some claim on that land, but not vice versa. There's the de jure kingdom of Frisia, but to claim that title you need two duchies. So I figured I could pick duchy with territory in Frisia and see if I can somehow claim that title. Lower Lorraine is in a good position, but their capital is in Breda and I don't want Brabant to rule the world. Flanders seems good, but with William the Conqueror as neighbour that doesn't seem like a good start. Besides, I've already played France in EUIII (http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5387). This leaves me with one option, and it seems like one with a lot of possibilities.

Meet Ordulf Billung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordulf,_Duke_of_Saxony), duke of Saxony:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Wartburg-Duke.Orthilius.von.Sachsen.JPG/220px-Wartburg-Duke.Orthilius.von.Sachsen.JPG

Ordulf is lord of Ostfriesland, the most eastern part of Frisia. Now all I have to do is declare war on... oh. You can't even declare war without Casus Belli, and even then there are other prerequisites (like, sharing the same liege lord if you are within a realm). The lord of Friesland is also lord of Braunschweig, which is in the middle of Saxony, but for some reason the whole of Saxony is in the de jure duchy of Braunschweig, which de facto doesn't exist). Even if the game thinks otherwise, I think this is justification enough for Ordulf to claim Braunschweig. And Friesland. And after that, the kingdom of Frisia. Even if all that fails, I'm good chums with the HRE, so this game shouldn't be boring at all. Even if it turns out to be, there's a million options for micromanagement, how could it be boring? Yes, rhetorical question.

There's a bunch of info on how to start, like imprison all your vassals and claim their lands. That seems like a valid option to me, but from what I gather that's when you fear your neighbours if you're independent. I'm not independent, I'm chums with the HRE. I'm going to lean back, breed some children and build economic buildings. So, I'm unpausing now...

[ProPain]

Lower Lorraine is in a good position, but their capital is in Breda and I don't want Brabant to rule the world.

Great, thanks for figuring out who I should start with. Brabant will rule the world, but now even sooner :)

[Shabbaman]

Apparently you have to siege every holding in each county. This could take a while... I've extorted Weimar from my neighbours, I'll have to wait 10 years of cease fire for the next county I want to take from them. Apparently you can only claim land for which you used the CB or something, I'd like to get multiple counties in one go...

Another thing, I've lost a county. While I was busy getting Weimar back from Meissen, the emperor reinstated the duchy of Braunschweig. I don't know why, maybe he's insane, maybe he got paid for it. Anyway, when the count of Friesland (and Braunschweig) died, his lands were distributed among his heirs. From what I can reconstruct (not paying attention, remember... not that there was a popup of any kind, it just happened) one of my vassals was one of his heirs, so he inherited Braunschweig. Because he was the lord of Oldenburg this means he now owns two counties in the de jure duchy of Braunschweig, so he claimed the title. This made him a duke, and since dukes can't be vassals of other dukes, he devassalised (is that even a word?). Even worse, since he is the duke of Braunschweig, he now has a CB on almost all my territory.

This sucks. Well, at least now I know why the advanced small start guide (http://ckiiwiki.com/Advanced_Small_Start_(Guide)) says I should imprison all my vassals right at the start. Sigh. Oh well, perhaps not all is lost, I might figure out a way to get a CB on him. I might just as well restart, since I'm only two years in the game.

[Shabbaman]

Now that I have the duchy of Brunswick (basically I bought a CB on Braunschweig for 200 gold) I own the prerequisite two duchies to create the kingdom of Frisia. Unfortunately I am to discover that there are even more prerequisites:

1. Own 50% of the de jure territory. Well, as I own only 6% now, this is going to be tough.
2. Have some piety
3. Have some gold
4. Be of the dutch culture.

Wait, what?

This is going to be tougher than I thought.

[Shabbaman]

Well, Ordulf died. The duke is dead, long live the duke! The new duke of Saxony and Brunswick is Magnus Billund, who's married to duchess Oda the first of Meissen. Basically this means that Magnus' heir (some girl with a ridiculous name) will be duchess of Saxony, Brunswick AND Meissen (which includes two of Saxony's de jure counties). Unfortunately everyone in the realm wants to kill my heir, so I better start looking for a decent spymaster...

In other news, I had fabricated claims on Friesland, but unfortunately Ordulf the claimant died. 100 ducats down the drain :( I'm going to try to get the claim again. My plan was to create the duchy of Gelre, so I'd have de jure claims on the county of Gelre. Since Ostfriesland passed to Magnus' kid brother, I'm not sure if creating Gelre will have the effect I was looking for. Worth a try though. Fabricating claims on Koln would mean I can create the duchy of Koln and grab 3 counties (eventually, since I can only get one de jure county for each 10 years of ceasefire...). Getting the duchy of Gelre would be a first step towards the kingdom of Frisia, getting Koln would be a good step towards the kingdom of Germany. Getting Meissen would be a good step towards the kingdom of Pommeralia, but then I have to go heretic as well. I'm not sure how that'll work out... but I doubt it'd work.

I figured that if I become HRE (and why not, with three duchies) I might even grab the de jure territories in Denmark. I can't declare war outside my lieges territory.

[Shabbaman]

One of my vassals assassinated my heir. Stupid bishop. Luckily my wife is very fertile, she's birthing one daughter after another. After the third girl I was wondering if either of us lacked Y chromosomes, but then I got a male heir. And there might be something wrong with her RNG, because the next kid is also male.

Now, you have to know that in CK2 there are different succession laws (http://ckiiwiki.com/Gavelkind#Succession_Law), and because my liege lord is lame I am stuck with the worst one: gavelkind. Basically this means that each of your children inherit a title. Now I discovered that having multiple duchies can actually be a bad thing: different children will get a duchy title, so my realm would be split up. Luckily my succession law disinherits girls when there's a proper male heir, so this was manageable. The primary title always goes to the principal heir, so my oldest son would be duke of Saxony, and the other one duke of Brunswick. Unfortunately, Brunswick is much larger, and the periferic counties are still property of Saxony. This came to be after I created Brunswick. Anyway, this is bad news. I explore some of the options, like killing the guy. Then I came across the button "make primary", so I made Brunswick my primary duchy. And then something wonderful occured: all my lands are reappropriated to the duchy of Brunswick, except a (random) county that is made the capital of Saxony. Behold, the de facto duchy of Brunswick:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578975014370716835/0795D6095663F8BB17EFF0BE3E1174498DB09C36/

Anhalt is all that is left of Saxony, but here is de jure Saxony:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578975014370725450/05C7D794E8A9B6904B8A06D9DB888B1BBF18A525/

What you see are the two counties that are de jure Saxony, but de facto Meissen. And my heir will be duchy of Meissen anyway (my wife is currently holding that title). So I'll loose one county, but since I own two saxon counties I might be able to usurp the title and then I'll have a casus belli against Anhalt.

Speaking of CB, my councillor finally managed to fabricate claims on Friesland. I reassign the councillor to Koln, and he gets killed. He has no children, so I inherit his land :D So after a short war against Lower Lorraine I finally own Friesland. This means that I'm over my demesne size though, so I'll have to give away some of my holdings to loyal subjects (or my wife, who knows). My new chancellor immediately fabricates claims on Koln, unfortunately I have to wait 10 years before I can extort more lands from the duke of Lower Lorraine. Or he;ll have to die. He's a midget, so I doubt he'll live long ;)

When I'm ransoming the lorraine lords I captured during the just war to give Friesland it's rightful heir, I noticed that I still have that bishop in jail (the count of Brabant died in my prison, heh). For 8 years, heh. Browsing the options I noticed that I'm able to strip him of his title, and better: because he's a traitor, nobody will be upset about it. Let me get this straight: I get his title, and nothing bad happens? Sign me up!

Then it occured to me that if I made my second son a bishop, he can't inherit anything from me. So I shouldn't even have bothered shuffling my titles around.

Lessons learned:
-having too many titles can actually be A Bad Thing (tm)
-keep a bishop in jail for when you need to get rid of an heir
-you can reorganise your realm by making a duchy your primary title

What's next: I can get Koln and create a new duchy, I own 2/3's of the duchy of Gelre so I can create that duchy as well, which means that I'll have more CB's against lower lorraine than I need. Getting one county for every war is going to be... slow. This whole inheritance law thing is getting me annoyed for being a vassal in the HRE. Perhaps I should try to be HRE myself, or try to get out of the jail called HRE.

[Shabbaman]

Now that my EUIII game bogged down in what I'd describe as "complete global domination" I picked up this game again. I was a bit depressed because it seemed as if gavelkind succession would have a devastating effect on my holdings (or rather, those of my principal heir), and since I'm stuck as a vassal in the HRE it would be impossible to get out of gavelkind. Having played a bit it doesn't seem as bad, I'll explain why.

The duchess of Meissen, also known as "my wife", or, considering Magnus I opinion of her, also known as "that bitch", has turned out to be a true boy birthing machine. So I made more sons into bishops, and I made sure that all titles will go to a single son. This is a bit of a bet, because if something happens to him I'm royally screwed. I found another way to negate the effects of gavelkind, and it ties in to one of my primary goals: become king. Sure, I might not be king of Frisia, but I have to be king of something... if I become king, then my major title will go to my prinicipal heir. I couldn't care less what happens to my duke titles in that case, since my realm would still hold all those titles.

So, how to get me a kingdom... I found out that I'm a good way toward half the counties that make up the kingdom of Germany, as I need only five more counties. The first step is Thuringen, who rebelled against my lovely wife the duchess of Meissen, and is somehow now equal to me. That's A Good Thing (tm), as I can fabricate a claim and usurp his title. I also grab Mainz from the Bavarian duke. Next stop, my archnemesis, the duke of Lower Lorraine:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595866493128824369/3F55D437F115F23392E07E75A8F43E657444BDDB/

Also known as the court dwarf of the HRE :D

I get Koln from him. I had figured that I could claim the duchy of Koln and get a CB for his other lands, but apparently you can't usurp duchies within the realm... only those overlapping lands within the realm and outside the realm. So I could get the duchy of Holstein from the king of Denmark, but that's worthless until I'm out of the HRE... or be the HRE myself. Anyway, with Koln, Mainz and Thuringen, I only need two more counties in the de jure German kingdom. That's doable: I can take two of my archnemesis if I'm patient. If I'm impatient... then I need to get to southern Germany, since the emperor is holding the duchy directly to my south.

Now, about Thuringen... I had conquered too many lands, so I figured I could give them to my heir. This was okay, because it didn't really matter if he lived in my castle or some other castle. However, this changed when I gave Thuringen to him. The emperor created the duchy of Thuringia, and gave it to my heir. This meant my son had a ducal title, and was on the same level as I was. This freed him as my heir. At first I figured this was not that bad, since when Magnus I dies all my titles will pass to him anyway, in turn reuniting the realm. Oh, and in the mean while incorporating the duchy of Meissen as well, as soon as That Bitch dies. Soon I noticed one downside: I couldn't pick his bride. That's a big problem, since that's what this game is about. Luckily he didn't pick a bride with poor genetic traits (but I couldn't pick one with good genetic traits either), but... he did pick a lesbian.

Let the joking commence.

Yet despite that, they are breeding like rabbits. They have two girls (good for making alliances) and one son:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595866493166196704/FCEFBAAB82E99896D86A081D7FD9258063C94A5D/

The dynasty is safe, for now. Unfortunately my son won't let me tutor my grandson, because that would "make him a hostage of a foreign power". I kid you not. There's one thing left to do: Magnus I has to die.

[Shabbaman]

Minor update: Magnus I is still not dead. I passed on the opportunity to get out of the HRE: most italian nobles joined an independance faction, but I figured that if I freed myself I couldn't get the required lands for founding Germany. Without those nobles it might be possible I'll be big enough to get out of the HRE anyway, so it's not a big deal. I'm also tied in votes for the HRE heir nomination (and my son gets some votes as well), so getting out of or becoming the HRE seems like a possibility.

I got another county of the court dwarf. Below you see the de jure kingdoms, with the duchy of Brunswick in yellow. I got more lands, since I'm also duke of Saxony (one province in Pomeralia) and duke of Gelre (the two northern provinces of Frisia). Meissen is four provinces in Pomeralia, and Thuringen is, well, Thuringen. With Thuringen my son will have the prerequisite number of counties to found Germany!

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595866493188003238/87EA44AF2B12A4AB68DACDB97377C3DD8F876827/

I'm wondering: is anyone reading this? BTW, look at the differences in the UI between this picture and the earlier pictures. The game received a massive overhaul.

[Kingreno]

"I'm wondering: is anyone reading this?"

sure thing! I read every post on CDZ. :)

[ProPain]

I'm wondering: is anyone reading this? BTW, look at the differences in the UI between this picture and the earlier pictures. The game received a massive overhaul.


Like KR, I read everything, especially CKII posts :)

I recongnise the EU III 'already won the world' feeling. I guess that's the time to start a new EU III/CK II game.

Will definately start up CK II soon to see the overhaul. Wasnt immediately clear to me from the pics.

[akots]

Why did you put that bishop in jail? Just curious.

[Shabbaman]

"I'm wondering: is anyone reading this?"

sure thing! I read every post on CDZ. :)

Good to know I have fans ;)

I guess that's the time to start a new EU III/CK II game.

If you play a CKII game until the finish, then you can (somewhat) convert the savegames into a EUIII format.

Why did you put that bishop in jail? Just curious.

Why wouldn't I? It's a bishop ;)

I had to check which bishop you are referring to. This bishop of Prum was captured during the battle for Julich. A war casualty, so to speak. I could have ransomed him (bishops are usually wealthy), but since I captured his county I figured he'd be happy with me if I'd just set him free. That has the side benefit of making my other vassals happy as well.

I had another bishop in jail as welll, but you couldn't have guessed from these pictures. This guy is the prince-bishop of Hamburg, and he has good learning skills so I had made him my court chaplain. At a certain point he became cathar, so I put him in jail. After a while I released him after he promised to convert back to "normal" catholicism (as if there were such a thing...), mainly to make use of his learning skills again. But soon after he converted to fraticelli, so I put him in jail again. If a vassal has become heretic, your other vassals don't mind if you strip his titles. I found it to be particularly useful to have a bishopric title ready to get rid of excess male heirs (you know, because of gavelkind succession). Anyway, after a while I figured I don't have any heirs coming up soon, so I ransomed him for 70 ducats. But then he started converting his own vassals, so I jailed him again. I stripped him of his title and made another vassal happy with a bishopric title. With vassals with other claims this could backlash, but this guy doesn't have any other titles anyway so I thought I could get away with it. And now I know that you can ransom someone and put him in jail immediately after, that's what I call useful knowledge.

Are you playing CKII, Akots?

Now, back to our regular schedule: apparently my son has ambitions of his own. He usurped a title from my archnemesis the court dwarf as well. Oh, and this:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595866493205307242/0087FDF9124DB769B782AB6F42BACBE684284083/

:D

[akots]

No, I'm not playing. But I read your tall tales.

[Shabbaman]

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/596993009022910025/D1DCE143D59DB75B39719635897E3D8B476AA893/

What I didn't anticipate is that my heir, currently known as king Ordulf I of Germany, would get the kinslayer (http://ckiiwiki.com/Assassination) attribute for this joke. In hindsight I might've done something against the plot, because poor Magnus died at 70. Chances are pretty slim he would've gotten much older, so this whole exercise is a bit pointless. But hey, it fits the story of the Billung dynasty!

Right after this event I created Germany and saved. I'll have to do some puzzling to figure out who I can give a duchy without repercussions (for instance: I have a CB against the court dwarf for his last county in Gelre (because of my duchy of Gelre), if I give the duchy to a vassal, will I keep the CB? I assume I get a "press a claim" CB), and without getting too strong. Luckily the duchy of Braunschweig is large and strong, so I feel reasonably safe from revolts. And with this kinslayer attribute I can expect revolts... Besides duchies I need to get rid of half of my counties. Hopefully my king title will make it easier to invite people to my court, since I'm not sure there are enough people in my realm to receive all that property...

One more thing: I figured out what I like about this game. Like Colonization it revolves around the management of people. EU3 is more like civ, where you're maximizing gold. Coming from EU3 I needed time to get into this mindset. Obviously col revolves around the production and trade of goods as well, and that part is lacking. Perhaps it's in the new Republic DLC.

[Shabbaman]

This might be my last update on this game. I'm declaring a win, because I have a kingdom. I even have a heir, and a grandson. I was anticipating a slow game after becoming king, but then the emperor (my son in law, no less!) decreed medium crown authority (although for my readers it might be good to know that this happened after I usurped Baden :D). Of course I voted against it, but it seems his other vassals are afraid of me. One of the "perks" of medium crown authority is that vassals can't fight other vassals. This might be fun if you're the liege lord, but it makes for one boring game if you're a vassal: you can't push your claims or the claims of courtiers, limiting the game to marriage diplomacy and intrigue. But without the option of violence, diplomacy and intrigue are limited.

So I'm playing a bit to see what happens (and I think I'll start a new game as emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire): I might be able to become HRE and solve all my problems at once. I could gain freedom, but that's only worthwhile if the HRE is too weak to reclaim lost lands. Winning one war against the emperor isn't that hard, I need around 1500 gold to do so. Of course I don't need to win freedom, I could push for lower crown authority... or the HRE title. I could start a faction and gather support, making it easier. With enough support, the HRE doesn't even fight. I tried a lower crown authority-faction, but that didn't get much support. I joined the existing independence-faction (lead by Bohemia, who got the HRE excommunicated as well... starts looking like EU3 more and more), bringing the faction up to 60% of the HRE's power. My relative power is at 30% btw. After I joined the faction, this happened:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/596993009104118998/DE40D2EB5CA334FF049B42341D78196DBBCAF343/

I was stunned. What happened? The HRE transferred one of it's direct vassals to me. To the HRE there's no immediate downside to it, as it's still under his indirect control since I'm his vassal. But it's a strange move considering that I'm clearly striving for independence, being in the independence faction and all... Besides that, it's an action human players make, so I'm surprised to see it done by the AI. Some of my dukes asked for transfer vassalage. It's a pity I can't ask the emperor for the same, it'd have saved me the hassle of invading Baden (although that did feel good :D). This is my land now:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596993009104107005/1C99069BC8D3246E2CCD69BF0C3BEB1984D676E7/

The emperor's personal holdings are sandviched between my lands (within the yellow borders). The missing counties are the remainder of Baden's duchy and a county some italian bloke stole from Swabia. You can also see what lands I own outside the de jure German kingdom, those lands are chequered within the de jure (and nonexistent) kingdoms of Frisia (also losing land to France) and Pomerania (losing land to Denmark). After 100 years within a kingdom, the lands become de jure property.

[ProPain]

Nice to see the AI try stuff to appease you.

I don't know the current situation in Spain but in my first game William the Conqueror build up a huge position there. His spanish holdings provided him with so much power he effectively blocked me from taking him on even though I was King of Ireland, Scotland and Wales at that point.

In the game I'm playing now I;m trying to partly copy that strategy because this time Norway owns England and has huge holdings in Scandinavia making them untouchable for me in their current state.

You might wanna try the same, or fight some other infidels. You don't need a CB to fight infidels, you can conquer more then one territory per war, you get huge amounts of Piety from fighting infidels (comes in handy when you wanna create/usurp other kingdom titles). This way you still get to fight apart from the marriage diplo. Maybe even makes it easier to become emperor of the HRE, but I dont have a clue how that works in CKII, never played a game in the HRE.

[Shabbaman]

I think it's not possible to declare war against "foreigners" as a vassal.

[Shabbaman]

Okay, apparently I can declare war on foreign independent powers. Declaring war on the king of France doesn't seem overly smart to me at this point. Declaring war on the king of Denmark doesn't seem so smart either, since I have a marriage alliance and I suspect he's the only ally close and strong enough to be of actual assistance against the HRE. However, I do have a valid CB if I usurp the duchy of Holstein, and since Frisians live in Holstein it seems clear to me that I rightfully own that land. Thús yn 't Ryk, and all that.

I'll see if there's some pagan duchy somewhere I can wage war on, but the HRE has been busy in Pomerania as well.

I've found that killing HRE heirs is a popular plot option, I got so many supporters that the plot power is at 103.7%. Eat that, math!

[ProPain]

Plotting is great in this game. Although beware: I had some drunk courtier blabber in the tavern about the plot she was supporting. Not nice, not nice.


Still why not invade some muslim counties in Spain? Easy to get support from the catholic spanish rulers, lots of piety, lots of king title's to create/usurp (Leon, Castille, Navarra to name a few)

[Shabbaman]

I've taken the suggestion to conquer land outside the HRE, so I took the opportunity to usurp Holstein (half of it's provinces are my starting provinces), and fabricated a claim on Mecklenburg. This way I could take three duchies within a short period, making good use of some internal conflicts within the kingdom of Denmark (might've read some play about that, once) as you sign truce between rulers personally: so if a ruler dies, or if someone revolts against their lord and becomes (temporarily) independent (like in my case with Mecklenburg) you can press a CB again.

A pity I didn't go for the heathens that used to live there at the start of the game. A good lesson. Oh, and this:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595867835659521992/FF1DC1A658CF728427D57C95DD5457A9927C8477/

Muahahaha! Take that, Baden!

[ProPain]

You're doing well, any chance of becoming HRE emperor?

[Shabbaman]

I was tied for elective heir with 6 votes before I became king, but clearly all my vassals hate me. I don't know how the voting mechanic works in CK2, I can't find anything about it. I have some suspicion that I might be royally screwed though.

For starters, my close family votes for the HRE's firstborn son. This guy can't possibly be very popular, since he's only 6 or something. But since the HRE is my son in law, that little brat is my nephew (or cousin, freakishly difficult english family vocabulary) so my close family is his close family... and I suspect this makes them skewed towards voting for him. Why they're not voting for me... well, maybe it's the whole kinslayer thing, I don't know. Since they are all plotting to get rid of me and I keep discovering their plots, our relations are warm (nice mechanic, that). So mutual relation isn't a factor in it, of that I am sure. I'll find out when I die, hopefully my heir won't have the kinslayer trait ;)

So it could have something to do with my stats, or my status as king, or my warmongering. Yet my father didn't have better stats and did more warmongering. Maybe the size of my realm is threatening the other electors.

Anyway, I'll keep my (rather: my heir a.k.a. the new me) daughters from marrying the HRE (good plan, as they;re family... or wait... inbreeding in the Salian's line would actually benefit me... MUAHAHAHA! THE PLOT THICKENS!) and hope someone in my line of succession gets good stats. In an elective monarchy I would expect the strongest nobleman to have a decent shot at the title, so I am confident it's possible to become emperor. I hope so, because the lands those Salian holds is cutting my nice kingdom in half.

P.S. Speaking of heirs, a lot of my vassals have been dying of stress lately. I'm not sure if I have something to do with it, but if I do, this game is even better than I thought. I can imagine the constant warfare could induce stress. Anyway, my second son (duke of Koln and Saxony) died of stress, my brother (duke of Gelre) died of stress, and even my oldest son (duke of Thuringia) died of stress. Luckily he has two sons, but you'd never guess it: his oldest son (duke of Thuringia) died of stress! So my son's second son is my current heir.

[ProPain]

iirc stress is a hereditary trait

[Shabbaman]

Well, the major downside of granting titles to your heir is that they move to their own court, and thus can't control their marriage (and consequently plan the Billung breeding program) I'm not doing that again, but I need to figure out what to do with all those counties I own.

[ProPain]

Well, the major downside of granting titles to your heir is that they move to their own court, and thus can't control their marriage (and consequently plan the Billung breeding program) I'm not doing that again, but I need to figure out what to do with all those counties I own.

I feel your pain. From now on I'm keeping them at home till 18 as well. In my Ireland game I gave my son a duchy. He moved, married some subpar wife, got kids. Turns out I'm healthy and live a long and prosperous life. Get grandchildren, they turn 18, they also marry sub par wifes. NOT GOOD!
Two generations of opportunities lost.
[B)]

[Shabbaman]

So my son's second son is my current heir.

Well, the queen of Germany died. I had a few options for a new marriage: for instance, I could marry a polish princess and get an alliance with Poland. However, since I want Silesia and Greater Poland, I don't think that alliance would benefit me. Besides, the options were either the ugly princess or the retarded princess. I opted for the young francaise :D

Anyway, old Ordulf has a hidden dirty old dog trait:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594743205787791090/247A16289508458719C1D107F6A28D76DCB5CB3E/

The stress didn't get to Ordulf though, he got pretty old despite all the wars I made him fight. He got three sons and a daughter with the french breeding stock, bringing his total up to 9 kids (still a pity all the boys died before he did). So, meet Adam I:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594743205798184293/C79077575ADA0C181619FD3820BDB4B284D8BCAE/

This meant it's regency council time. Not as boring as it is in EU3 though, luckily. Gavelkind means Adam is left with just the kingdom, the capital and the Brunswick duchy. Unfortunately one of the Brunswick counties (Brunswick itself) got itself into the duchy of Thuringia somehow. That's a bit of a pity, because this means my levy will be smaller. It won't matter for the king's levy though. But now there's a big hole in Brunswick that doesn't please me aesthetically.

And apparently my family likes Adam better than Ordulf, must be that kinslayer trait: I got nominated for HRE heir as soon as I inherited the title. With a big pile of gold for a mercenary company I fought the queen of Sweden (also king of Denmark and the other half of Scandinavia... and the Baltics... Sweden is HUGE), and then the queen of Poland while I had the merc company around anyway.

Once it was time for the actual succession, some random dukes decided it was time for seniority succession. And they pushed that claim with a big war. Unfortunately I had just spend my cash and already dismissed the mercs, so I couldn't fight back. The new emperor was out of cash and couldn't fight back either, so now I am stuck with seniority succession. What bothers me more than that is that I couldn't figure out how to fight for my liege: my battles didn't count for his warscore. Pity.

Anyway, the war for seniority succession was another sign that there's more to this game that meets the eye: I don't think it's a coincidence that the AI starts a war for seniority succession when I'm the youngest eligible heir around. With the HRE being broke and all I suspect I'll get a chance to go for independence or HRE. With one or two merc companies I can win that war. That is, I could've won this war... For Germany to shine, the HRE must go down.

By the way, since the HRE lost the crown authority got lowered automatically. So I got Altmark from Brandenburg. The HRE wants to raise crown authority to high. I hope that vote fails, otherwise this'll get boring pretty quick. I have CB's on Sweden (for Pomerania) and Poland (for Silesia and Greater Poland). I can't push either at the moment, because I'm too weak to fight Sweden and there's civil war in Poland (you can't usurp titles when the other side is at war). But I expect to be up 3 duchies in the near future.

Another thing that's bugging me is that I see retinues (standing armies) pop up everywhere. I could make my own retinue, but that is a penalty towards my levy size. So I suspect that my vassal's levies are a drain on my levy.

As a final remark: this time I got my heir (all hail Adam I) to marry some random with the genius trait. And I got a new heir already, and I'll be keeping him at home this time!

[ProPain]

Another thing that's bugging me is that I see retinues (standing armies) pop up everywhere. I could make my own retinue, but that is a penalty towards my levy size. So I suspect that my vassal's levies are a drain on my levy.


Do retinues come out of your levy numbers?? Never knew that and it makes them a lot less interesting imo. I thought I was training up extra military to crush the king of England.......

Also I managed to take the title 'Captian of the Irish band' Dunno why I could usurp it but the great thing is that I now can raise that merc amry at no start up cost. The last independant scottish earl is also captain of the saxon band. I hope I can usurp that title as well when I kick his ass out of scotland in a few years (damn 10 year truce).

[Shabbaman]

Do retinues come out of your levy numbers??

That's what I think. In the retinue screen there's a column "retinue cap usage". I figured that that'd count towards my levy size. Perhaps it doesn't though. This is what I found on the wiki (which isn't even half as awesome as the EU3 wiki btw):

Retinue Cap = Total Realm Manpower x (Average Realm Military Organization Tech x 0.1

So it might just be that it's independent of levy size. There's a link between levy size and manpower though. I'd say that having a retinue lowers the available manpower. I'll just try it, if my levy size goes down that should be easy to check. If I look at the levy size, I see a penalty of about 8% because of retinues. This could be the HRE retinue though.

Also I managed to take the title 'Captian of the Irish band' Dunno why I could usurp it but the great thing is that I now can raise that merc amry at no start up cost. The last independant scottish earl is also captain of the saxon band. I hope I can usurp that title as well when I kick his ass out of scotland in a few years (damn 10 year truce).

That is... awesome. Having read the Wheel of Time series I always wanted to be captain of the great company. Since I'm aspiring to kick the HRE's and Sweden's butt, I could use a free mercenary band. Obviously there's NOTHING on this on the wiki. I did notice that the leaders of the companies show up as marriageable characters. So yes, I figure that if they are landed and take their last title, you could get the company title as a bonus. Congratulations Propain, you have broken the game!

By the way, I forgot to show you this :D

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/596993009061461383/5B1CE917CBDAB534600E01DAD8EC8E8EA7DBF3AC/

Heh.

[ProPain]

This will increase his opinion of you by 10

:D That's what I love about this game. Same when I promoted my horse to councillor 'Your horse always struck you as the dependable sort' Hilarious.

IN EUIII one of my favorite buttons is

'Stop staring at the sky!!'

[Shabbaman]

I like how CK2 gives you more options depending on your abilities. IIRC that's not implemented in EU3. Like how I got the option to "make vague promises" when one of my vassals asked me to transfer one of my direct vassals to him. All the other options would make someone quite pissed. So I made some vague promises.

[Shabbaman]

Update time. To continue where I left, Adalbert the court dwarf has a dynasty of court dwarfs. Meet his son:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595869731926785787/F3E5993E00E689446F373AE89EC5C31BB6EA18EC/

:D

It's time I show how my little kingdom looks today. I found room to expand in Poland. Gradually I got the duchy of Greater Poland, and the duchy of Mecklenburg. I also got the duchy of Brandenburg, which was conveniently next to my capital yet completely out of reach because of medium crown authority. However, when the emperor died and someone started the German War for Seniority Succession (and succeeded), crown authority disappeared completely. On the one hand, that;s how I like it because it let's me get more lands. On the other hand, my vassals are fighting among themselves. And since most of them are Billung, they all have CB's on each other's lands. That's the downside of expanding I guess. When I was battling the king of Sweden for Rügen (de jure part of Mecklenburg, so rightfully mine) my brother decided it was time to press his claim on the kingdom of Germany. Bad idea. I did encounter a glitch of some sort: I got a message that faithful levies had appeared in my capital. Not much later the succession war suddenly ended, at the same time I made peace with the king of Sweden. One of the annoying features of this game is that sometimes a CB becomes invalid in the middle of a war; for example, when the opposing king dies, or, if a civil war ends (if there's a civil war every party becomes independent for the duration of the war, but when peace is made the "opposing leader" could end up with a liege lord (his king, likely). But anyway, I don't know why this brother's war ended, but I did end up with 2k worth of faithful levies. Levies which I don't have to pay upkeep, nor receive raised levies penalties, nor prevent me to declare war. I'm not complaining ;) Below you see the the independent countries with the lands de facto belonging to Germany (in yellow, without Rügen). There's a county somewhere in the Balkans that I didn't know it existed before I made this screenshot, and the republic of Ferrara that got into the hands of the Billung dynasty when the duke of Thuringia played a role in some independence war. At least I think that's what happened, I'm not keeping track of everything my vassals do ;) It could be some inheritance of the italian branch of my family (the first thing I did when I started the game was to marry one of my brothers to an Italian duchess).

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595869731929558173/5E01B2AAE1F49CBF6071179929998EFC327C5A3B/

So, that's where I was when the shit hit the fan: the emperor died. Somehow seniority succession doesn't lead to popular emperors, because every duke suddenly decides to push his claim on the HRE. After helping the duke of Lower Lotharingen (not the court dwarf by the way, he's long dead) to a warscore of 100%, the emperor died... cancelling the CB and the war. The duke of Wolgast (the one county duchy of Pomerania) became the new emperor by seniority... and this was the guy that started the German War for Seniority Succession. So he got something out of it after all: not only the HRE, but also the duchy of Franconia (the lands cutting my kingdom in half). Apparently he didn't make friends, so the duke of Upper Lotharingen pushed his claim. With my help he succeeded. Easily, I must add: the HRE already was broke before the first war, but owning a single county doesn't make for wealthy emperors. So now we're at a point where the HRE isn't a Salian, and as a bonus the head of the Salians is in the jail of the new HRE. All I have to do is to push my claim for the duchy of Franconia, and Germany is whole. Even this emperor isn't popular, as I got called to enter a new succession war immediately after this one ended. I don't feel like fighting for a one county Balkan lord, so I declined.

After the war an Italian lord gave me some gold, I have no clue why...

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594743994498672755/74A0EC46D515EFADCC0AC9E1959250D64E92D151/

I have created a simple retinue, consisting of a shock, defense and knight retinue. As far as I could tell this doesn't count towards my levy size, yet there's still a retinue penalty visible in the levy size calculation. I suspect this is the HRE's retinue. I don't know, and I can't find anything on it either. Anyway, I'm happy with my retinue.

The Billing Breeding Programme is also taking form. I'm keeping my sons at home until they're married (or maybe I'll just keep them at home until they inherit their lands from me, although the penalty for the amount of duchies I own is already up to -20). I made sure to pick good brides: my heir got an Arabian princess with the genius trait. Even though she turned out to be a mastermind theologian lesbian they have three sons. No genius trait. By the way, my wife has the genius trait, and it showed up in my youngest daughter. For my second son I picked the daughter of the king of Norway, not only for the alliance but also for the strong trait she carries. Their first son turned out an imbecile though [B)] I married a daughter to some russian principality, and a daughter to the Basileus of Byzantium. They have two sons born in the purple. Maybe that alliance can be put to good use some time in the near future.

[akots]

... Even though she turned out to be a mastermind theologian lesbian they have three sons. No genius trait. ...
That is ... hilarious? [lol]

[Shabbaman]

It is :D

Also note that the new court dwarf has the strong trait. So he's a powerful midget.

[ProPain]

In my Ireland game my current character has gotten the lunatic trait again. Still waiting for a funny event to happen because of this.

The strategy I have devised to cull powerfull vassals is to strip them of excess/all titles once I reach a high age and death is approaching anyway. They'll hate you for it but that's only temporary, once you die, your successor loses those penalties :)

Yesterday I had a very satisfying moment. I pushed my uncles claim to the french throne and after a short war I crushed the current king of France and made my uncle King of France. :) Should be a powerfull ally in my future conquest of England. Also I hope to remarry my uncles line back into mine to add the crown of France to my assets as well. If I;m lucky I might even pick up the inbred trait from IT :D

[Shabbaman]

While you're at it, execute claimants and save your heir the hassle of fighting succession wars.

[Shabbaman]

I figured out why that Genoese chap donated all that gold: apparently trade republic AI's will give you money to improve relations, so they get a discount on building tradeposts.

[Shabbaman]

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594744376221871044/5C77B984D3FAA59D87D443F549276C969761D95B/

So... the rise of the Hansa. I'll just put it this way: if you're plan is to establish a merchant republic, better not steal a county from the king of Germany. This so-called Hansa was short lived.

The HRE is still in turmoil. Everybody and their mothers is pushing their own claims, and seniority succession means that even if there's a normal succession, the new emperor won't rule long anyway. I don't mind, as this means crown authority is non-existent and I get to push my claims.

Ever since the HRE decided that Breda would make him a nice capital (apparently he hated the court dwarf from Lower Lotharingen as well), the former holdings of Lower Lotharingen have been changing hands every other year. The king of France claimed some land, and the duchy of Brabant is independent. The current duchess is married to the duke of Austria, which sounds more than it is: it's a single county duchy. So when she knocked on my door to ask me if I would honor my alliance and make her husband HRE, I wondered:
-why am I making one-county nobodies Emperor
-why are random duchesses asking me to honor our alliance
-should I care

The answer to the last question is obviously "no". I haven't found the answer to the first question, but the answer to any question involving alliances usually leads to something going on with kinsmen marrying fancy gals. So I wondered: if I am asked to honor an alliance, would there be a kinsman with a claim I could push? The answer to that question is obviously "yes" :D

Pushing other people's claims (I'm down with OPC yo) is a feature I hadn't explored completely. If you have someone at your court with a claim, you can help him get his rightful property. This is useful if that land is part of your de jure territory, because the courtier will be your vassal. I find this to be pointless, because if I have a de jure claim, I have a de jure CB. So what is in it for me, you ask? If you help your family push a claim, their rightfully and newly acquired land will be part of your realm. Even if it's not in your de jure territory. So now I own Brabant. I'm sending all the ugly women there. Getting the duchess to give in was harder than I thought, I got stuck at 99% warscore. Apparently Brabant owned the county of Steiermark, next to Austria. Weird. Steiermark is next to the yellow blob in the Balkans I already owned, so my random blob is now a big bigger. I'll see if I can marry some of my family to get some interesting claims. Bavaria seems nice.

Another nice feature of the game is that you can invite claimants to your court. It's pretty hard to convince people to come to your court. Or maybe there's a hidden feature I haven't discovered yet: everybody complains there's no reason to move to my court. Pah. But if someone figures I could push their claim (when hell freezes over), they'll gladly join my court. This is useful when you're looking for a good council member. Protip.

As soon as I was 50 years I banished my brother (still in my jail) so I could claim his lands... and to keep my vassals starting factions to put him on the throne. Somehow people still like him better. Well, now that I'm a tyrant that actually makes sense. The fact that I'm continually at war and raise their levies might have something to do with it. I distributed my duchies and counties among my sons, and I gave Leiningen to my brother's son (see, I'm not that bad). I gave one county to a nephew, the result of one of my (well, not me, a previous me) daughters and the king of Scotland. Funny thing, he's got a weak claim on the throne of Germany. So if the king of Scotland decides to push his claim... ;) Of course I could've pushed the claim on the kingdom of Scotland, but it's on the other part the world.

My heir will have the duchies of Brandenburg and Braunschweig, with four counties in total, and 3000 gold. This should give him a solid power base. I'm close to owning all of de jure Germany. There's only three counties (in Pomerania and Pomeralia) within the HRE north of me that's not mine (yet). I think I'll get my son to claim independence. Or perhaps the HRE, and then release all vassals to ensure there won't be a HRE left when I claim independence.

[ProPain]

If you help your family push a claim, their rightfully and newly acquired land will be part of your realm. Even if it's not in your de jure territory. So now I own Brabant. I'm sending all the ugly women there. Getting the duchess to give in was harder than I thought, I got stuck at 99% warscore. Apparently Brabant owned the county of Steiermark, next to Austria. Weird. Steiermark is next to the yellow blob in the Balkans I already owned, so my random blob is now a big bigger. I'll see if I can marry some of my family to get some interesting claims. Bavaria seems nice.

Speaking from experience when you push someone's claim they will only end up as your vassal if some requirements are met. When these are not met they'll end up as indepedents. Some situations to watch out for

- if you push a title for someone that is the same level of your own, they'll end up independent. Example: you're a king and push a kingdom claim for someonelse, they'll become an independent kingdom
- if you push a title claim for an area that's not de jure part of your realm the claimaint can and up independent when he's is not your vassal. And vassal doesnt equal courtier. You can circumvent this by giving them a county and making them a vassal before you push their claim. If need be you can reclaim the original county after the war but your vassals wont like that.

[Shabbaman]

There are a lot of requirements, luckily they're all mentioned in the diplo screen when you want to push a claim. Pushing claims for family members works though, but still only if you get them a lower title than your own. And even then... watch out what they can do with that title.

Actually, that's what I did :) If you take a look at the map of de jure kingdoms I posted earlier, you could see that Brabant and Gelre make up a good part of Frisia. Flanders is close to drifting into the kingdom of France, and if that happens Brabant and Gelre is over 50% of Frisian territory. To create the kingdom of Frisia you need two duchies, 50% of the territory, and you need to be dutch. Maybe that won't work because the game counts the original de jure lands, or maybe it won't work because you can't outrank your liege lord. I didn't take the chance to push the duke of Gelre's claim, I just looked for another family member with a claim.

In other news, the Billung Breeding Program pays off. Meet my great-grandson, currently third in the line of succession:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594744798342271940/8882962177DC396DE747265FA1AD81C9D8C5F17F/

[Shabbaman]

Another success for the Billung Breeding Programme:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595871100803811833/825897E7BAC27F68F4DB88AB1D062A81EDCDA380/

Funny story: his father is Martin Billung, the guy I posted in the previous picture. His father is the current king. That guy's father (the previous king) had several wives: his first wive gave birth to the continuing Billung dynasty. The last wife, a genius swedish princess, gave birth to a daughter just before the king died. So, I was stuck with a genius swedish princess... what to do, what to do? Marry her to my grandson (the first Martin), so she can breed a new genius!

Germany is becoming quite huge. I've captured all the remaining northern provinces, and two polish duchies. I've started claiming Lorrainian (both upper and lower) territory. I also got Austria, so my Balkan blob is now three counties big (with a de jure CB on a fourth).

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594745651972187814/64CE03A1F87C4F422697DCE0FDE038729705CBAC/

(What you're seeing in above picture are my borders, in yellow. Upper Lotharingen is pushing a claim on the HRE (and I didn't join their faction, so they are my enemy automatically), and they're losing... badly. Yet not long before I made this picture the warscore was -46%... if anyone is interested in how that works, I've found this beautiful piece of information (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?644465-How-and-Whe-Faction-Wars-Are-Broken-A-Demonstration))

So, close to large enough to declare independence? I'm still not sure. I could push a claim on the HRE, but with seniority succession that is a bit pointless. The thing is, when I start a faction I don't get support from other dukes and kings. I could join a faction, but I want to be in control of the faction to prevent the AI from conceding (which would put me in jail). There seems to be an independence faction and corresponding indepence war going on ever since the HRE switched to seniority succession.

Oh, and note that the Billungs have turned from brown to blonde again. And I have a new court dwarf. This one is even better than the old one, because he is the duke of Baden :D

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594745651972040366/8BF4DC129A1FA2978C00A62CF8D98F6C1EA8735E/

[Shabbaman]

To cut a long story short: the cascading seniority succession in the HRE meant that I lost two duchies, because those old Salian bastards became emperor. Besides that, I also lost Swabia due to some inheritance mishap. So, I finally got to found the independence faction. Of course nobody joined, but at least the HRE transferred Swabia to me again. Yay. Because nobody joined I left the faction, and the king of Hungary founded the faction anew. While I was battling Sweden for a Bavarian county (really, Sweden...), the king of Hungary pressed his claim for independence. So I swiftly dispatched the Swedish deathstack, and faced the 30k HRE deathstack. With some luck and a reload I dispatched the stack with the help of a free company and 25k of my own troops.

So, here it is, the independent kingdom of Germany:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595871638258856309/D3C19B0EFC0362D99215E2734E074A9F0C1FA7BD/

The HRE consists mainly of the kingdom of Bohemia now. That's funny, because Bohemia has been in every independence war except this one. I hope they fight the HRE soon, I don't want the HRE to pick on me. I'll see what happens if I start a new fight.

[Shabbaman]

Well, the HRE doesn't contain the kingdom of Bohemia anymore. I noticed there's a Billung with a claim on the kingdom of Bohemia, so I pushed that claim. I won easily, because the HRE was fighting among themselves for a change (speaking of which, I found that when you're independent you can join wars at will, pretty fun :D ), so a Billung got the throne. Sometimes it's a surprise what happens when you push a claim:
-the Billung family gets the throne
-the new king gets the county with the capital
-the old king stays duke of the duchy of Bohemia, without the capital
-another Billung already was duke of the other half of Bohemia
-obviously the king of Bohemia can't be vassal of the king of Germany, because the titles are of a similar level
-the kingdom of Bohemia becomes independent (yay!)
-the duchy of Bohemia stays in the HRE (wait what?)

Sometimes the game shows other surprising peculiarities:

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578983936948589725/146D8F639AA29528E9B30120210639E6D0F073AB/

I can't revoke his title, because his territory is still de jure part of the HRE. Yet the HRE is in turmoil and doesn't have ANY crown authority... Does it make sense? I don't think anything in regard to the HRE made any sense in reality, so in that regard this mechanic makes sense.

I've encountered a minor disconvenience: I've lost a duchy. I had conquered two duchies that are the jure part of the kingdom of Poland: Silesia and Greater Poland. The kingdom of Poland has an elective monarchy, with the de jure dukes getting a vote. So when the duke of Silesia nominated himself, and the duke of Greater Poland supported his nomination... he became the king of Poland, taking the duchy of Silesia with him. So now there's a Billung on the throne of Poland and a Billung on the throne of Bohemia.

[Shabbaman]

Good times.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576733330076704983/B4B16A871ED8F5A706798E350E222C964FBE5634/

Yes, that actually happened. Because of the stupid succession rules I can't keep both kingdoms, so I simply dissolved the kingdom and distributed the vassals among as many non-Bohemian vassals as possible. Why? To keep them from reforming the kingdom of Bohemia. I have a feeling someone will succeed with that anyway, but it's worth trying. The kingdom of Germany has medium crown authority (which prevents vassals from fighting eachother), but I found crown laws only apply to de jure land. So, endless fighting for the periphery of the german kingdom until their lands have drifted into my de jure territory after 100 years of occupation.

As soon as king Amadeus I of Poland (my Billung cousin) was succeeded by Amadeus II, I got to push a claim on the duchy of Silesia for a Billung family member. Hopefully I get to keep it a bit longer this time around. In the image below you can see my borders in yellow, and my land in grey. The grey outside my borders is what's left of the HRE.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576733330077225405/C3E377BE452A179E124DE757AF592A090C7C7A5B/

Oh, and Martin the ill-ruler died at the age of 75. Long live Martin IV.

[Shabbaman]

The Golden Horde invaded Poland. Twice. The second time I was otherwise occupied, so the Horde annexed Poland. So what does the mighty king of Germany do? Call for a holy war!

Holy wars are pretty cool, it's the easiest way to grab a lot of land.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/577861040701668547/4CB795644A75FBF8A1EA83CFA79458A4A1A51158/

Unfortunately, even with holy wars, you have to obey truce... and in the meanwhile, the Golden Horde converted to orthodox christianity. In other words: not pagan, so no holy war. That's a bit of a pity. I could wait to find out if they convert back, or if they even remain hostile. It could be that their tribal conquest CB requires them to be pagan. That would be interesting to find out. However, that's about the only thing that's still interesting in this game: Germany is so huge it can even crush the Golden Horde's stacks of doom on it's own. Playing has become tedious. I have not achieved my main goals: creating Frisia, and exterminating the HRE. The HRE is down to a few duchies, but with the truce slowing down conquest... that'd be tedious. I could create Frisia if I got a dutch tutor for an heir, so I'll check that as "achieved".

What's next? Believe it or not, I started a game of civ5. I'm already winning (apparently building your capital on a choke point with archers behind is a nice way to get the AI to put it's units in the meat grinder), so I guess that'll be enough of that. I've restrained buying Victoria 2 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/42960) for a week, and the discount is only for another 10 hours. Victoria is said to have the best implementation of economics of all Paradox grand strategy games, so I have to admit that it's tempting... temptation, temptation... However, I still haven't played the Republic and Byzantine DLC for CK2. From what I've seen of Byzantine games is that they inevitably end in owning the whole map, I can't say that prospect thrills me. So, merchant republic it is.