Learning Pitboss

[SilentConfusion]

This pitboss game is meant to be a learning experience for all involved. Since that is the case the usual warning for in game players to stay away doesn't apply here. Anyone can look at this thread and post questions or advice.

Here are the players/teams.
Team 1 -Majic- Suryavarman II of Ethiopia(Random)
Team 2 - TheMeInTeam- Washington of America
Team 3 - Calis - Cyrus of Persia
Team 4 - nabaxo - Vicky of Mali
Team 5 - RasmCiv - Hammurabi of Zulu
Team 6 - fireflames - Gandhi of Russia(Random)
Team 7 - harvman - Julius Caesar of Viking(Random)
Team 8 - IlBrago - Kublai Khan or Babylon(Random)
Team 9 - link16 - Saladin of Holy Rome
Team 10 - SilentConfusion - Mehmed II of India

Game Settings:
Difficulty: Monarch
Map Script: Archipelago
Map Size: Standard
Climate: Arid
Sea Level: Medium
Starting Era: Ancient
Game Speed: Normal
Options:
-Agg AI
-Unrestricted Leaders
-Random Personalities
-No Technology Brokering
-New Random Seed
-No Vassal States
-No Random Events
-Simultaneous Turns
-Take Over AI
-Turn Timer

[SilentConfusion]

My Leader/Civ:
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0047.jpg

Mehmed II is EXP and ORG giving him cheaper workers, +2 health, double-speed granaries, cheaper civics, double-speed lighthouses, courthouses, and factories. India starts with Mysticism and Mining and has the Fast Worker and the Mausoleum. The idea is to get fast workers out quickly and improve tiles quickly, with cheap economic infrastructure. This would seem to be a good setup for expansion. No military bonuses or UU.

Here's the start:
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0048.jpg

Just a plains wine? That's not what I was looking for. A lot of forests but I think I'll end up moving. I move my warrior 1NE:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0051.jpg

I won't miss any special tiles except wine if I move 1N and maybe I'll find some food. I'll at least get more land tiles while still being coastal:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0052.jpg

At least this spot has a fish, but if I move 1NE>1NW I could settle on a plains hill with the fish and get 4h early for faster worker. If I settle in place here the worker comes out in 15 turns. If I take another turn and move it comes out in 12 turns. The only real loss is 1 turn of teching (probably BW). I'm thinking I'll move, then settle the next turn then tech BW>Fishing and build a worker, with some turns on a warrior if the worker would get done before BW.

EDIT: actually, it will take 14 turns to get the first worker if I move (because I can't work the 2h tile until the border pops). This becomes a wash in terms of the first worker, although every one after that gains time.

[socralynnek]

You have already lost some turns, so it might be a good idea to start with a warrior before the worker. (Or are civs sharing landmasses not possible with Archipelago?)

Someone might find you quite soon if you don't have an island on your own.

[BCLG100]

I would have stayed where you were, hill start and the bonuses related to the river coupled with an extra forest to chop.

[akots]

Yes, second BCLG. That's not a GOTM. Somebody walks in and you are dead for good. But on Archipelago map, risk is small and is worth the benefit.

[SilentConfusion]

You have already lost some turns, so it might be a good idea to start with a warrior before the worker. (Or are civs sharing landmasses not possible with Archipelago?)

Someone might find you quite soon if you don't have an island on your own.

This is the kind of thing I don't think about not having played MP much. I didn't think "what if a scouting warrior finds me?" I just saw no food.

I'm pretty sure if it's the snaky continent variety of Archipelago I could have a neighbor.

I would have stayed where you were, hill start and the bonuses related to the river coupled with an extra forest to chop.

I was thinking of moving again. To a plains hill 2N of current location, then settling. Is this too many wasted turns? I'm again not thinking like it's MP. I think of hills as production, rather than defense. About the river... I thought since I was EXP I could afford to move off the river.

Yes, second BCLG. That's not a GOTM. Somebody walks in and you are dead for good. But on Archipelago map, risk is small and is worth the benefit.

Are you saying that the risk of moving is worth it?

[SilentConfusion]

Thanks guys for the feedback. Any advice on how to play better, especially about things that are specific to MP, will help me get better. I respect your advice.

Maybe I should have just settled in place, but I'm learning. Since I already moved into the forest, there wasn't any point in going back, so it was a question of settle in the forest or move to the plains hill 2N (NE>NW). I moved in the first place to find food, but I wanted that plains hill when I saw it. It would still get the fish and potentially other seafood as well. Again, maybe I shouldn't have delayed settling, but I couldn't resist the plains hill.

My warrior was gifted 65 gold from a nice group of villagers.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0050.jpg

It doesn't seem likely that another civ could get to my capitol. My warrior will protect it, so I can't resist moving. Possibly I am playing very newbish. Please let me know. I don't usually scout with my settler. ;)

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0054.jpg

My capitol will have ivory, but it will need a galley before it can be improved.

Here is my island after turn 1. It looks quite small with a fish, wine, and a gold. It seems my island is very small as I can see coast just in the black FoW east of the gold. Hopefully another seafood is on the east coast.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0056.jpg


I'm not so familiar with playing on Archipelago maps, but I'll do my best. I'll want fishing, sailing and BW early. I'll probably go Fishing>BW>Sailing. I don't think I need another warrior because of the apparent size of my island. Will move my warrior 1N just in case someone is on the other side of the mountains. So I might start with a worker and have him improve the grass hill to crank out a workboat quickly.

[BCLG100]

The issue with the river is not just the health, it's also the trade, not needing boats. Also the extra bonus as a defender you get for people not having to fight over it. Finally, a particular favourite of mine in BtS is now you cannot use the levee.

The problem with your starting location is that you do have ivory indeed but what else have you got? 1 fish and 2 hills and 10 sea tiles, 2 of which only have 1 commerce. Then from what I can tell you have 5 grassland tiles- I dont think any of them are river placed so you have a very small cap placed on the amount of commerce generated.

Then the issue with the ivory is this (not sure if barbs are on) but not only do you have to build what could be a rather pointless galley earlier on to work the tiles but you also have to station some unit over there in order to guard it/keep a galley around to ship over. otherwise it may get pillaged on a regular basis.

I think in the future you should keep in mind switching your capital to a decent location because the current location is an average at best city, luckily to the south you have a load of trees and so if you have bronze/horses then you can chop out an army very fast and go and capture someone elses capital and use theres!

You shouldn't be afraid of moving your Settler in MP (As you weren't) but there has to be a point to doing so and not just blind moves (as you did with the second move on to the hill). Apologies if my post comes off a little harsh, it was not intended to at all :)

[akots]

Are you saying that the risk of moving is worth it?

The risk was small. That is what I mean.

The main problem is that your leader is not very good for sea-based maps. He has a lot of benefits but they are better for a land-based map. Any financial leader will be in a much better situation. Another drawback of the move is that you cannot irrigate the tiles around the capital rapidly and so you population growth will be slow. Even if you go cottage spam, the cottages will bring less gold early on.

Again second BCLG, sooner or later you would have to move the capital to another city. For now up until size 6 or 7 it will be OK but later in the game the need to tech rapidly will require larger cities and more productive ones. On a bright side, you have some hammers which is the main problem on archipelago type of maps. But with you next move you moved actually away from these hammers for some reason.

So, I'd say that first move is OK. But your second move is a mistake. I'd go back to where you were after the first move. There, you could irrigate almost everything and you would have had 4 hills to work. On archipelago map, it might be better not to settle on plains hills. You lose 2 hammers per turn eventually later on. Although it is hard to tell. Some maps have a bit more hammers.

Also, with regards to ivory, the easiest way will be to settle there at some point. No need to improve and immediate connection to the capital. You can still settle there even if you decide to build your capital where your settler stands now. Unless these two landmasses connect somehow.

[SilentConfusion]

The issue with the river is not just the health, it's also the trade, not needing boats. Also the extra bonus as a defender you get for people not having to fight over it. Finally, a particular favourite of mine in BtS is now you cannot use the levee.

The problem with your starting location is that you do have ivory indeed but what else have you got? 1 fish and 2 hills and 10 sea tiles, 2 of which only have 1 commerce. Then from what I can tell you have 5 grassland tiles- I dont think any of them are river placed so you have a very small cap placed on the amount of commerce generated.

Then the issue with the ivory is this (not sure if barbs are on) but not only do you have to build what could be a rather pointless galley earlier on to work the tiles but you also have to station some unit over there in order to guard it/keep a galley around to ship over. otherwise it may get pillaged on a regular basis.

I think in the future you should keep in mind switching your capital to a decent location because the current location is an average at best city, luckily to the south you have a load of trees and so if you have bronze/horses then you can chop out an army very fast and go and capture someone elses capital and use theres!

You shouldn't be afraid of moving your Settler in MP (As you weren't) but there has to be a point to doing so and not just blind moves (as you did with the second move on to the hill). Apologies if my post comes off a little harsh, it was not intended to at all :)

No need to apologize for sounding harsh. I didn't think it was harsh, just helpful. I didn't consider the other benefits of the river.

Barbs are indeed on and I see your point. I'd need to station troops there or it'll get pillaged.

The risk was small. That is what I mean.

The main problem is that your leader is not very good for sea-based maps. He has a lot of benefits but they are better for a land-based map. Any financial leader will be in a much better situation. Another drawback of the move is that you cannot irrigate the tiles around the capital rapidly and so you population growth will be slow. Even if you go cottage spam, the cottages will bring less gold early on.

Again second BCLG, sooner or later you would have to move the capital to another city. For now up until size 6 or 7 it will be OK but later in the game the need to tech rapidly will require larger cities and more productive ones. On a bright side, you have some hammers which is the main problem on archipelago type of maps. But with you next move you moved actually away from these hammers for some reason.

So, I'd say that first move is OK. But your second move is a mistake. I'd go back to where you were after the first move. There, you could irrigate almost everything and you would have had 4 hills to work. On archipelago map, it might be better not to settle on plains hills. You lose 2 hammers per turn eventually later on. Although it is hard to tell. Some maps have a bit more hammers.

Also, with regards to ivory, the easiest way will be to settle there at some point. No need to improve and immediate connection to the capital. You can still settle there even if you decide to build your capital where your settler stands now. Unless these two landmasses connect somehow.

The leaders were picked before we knew what type of map it is, so I didn't know I'd be playing Archipelago.

Ok, I agree with you both that I moved blindly the second time and had no reason to. And I also didn't consider that the plains hill might need to be worked do to low hammers. I should be thinking about all the land and its yields not just looking for specials. And the lack of riverside tiles is one more reason why I should have stayed.

Now I guess the question is do I move back as akots says he would do and lose another turn but have a better capitol or do I settle in place and try to leverage the early hammers of the forest into troops to take someone else's capitol and then move my palace?

I think I'm leaning towards the second choice. I can put a city back where I started. I will try to find someone early and take their capitol. I think the tile 1SE of the plains hill is either horse or a metal.

Each of my mistakes I will try to learn from. I want to become better at MP Civ. I was OK with SP for a long time, until I tried MP and now I'm not sure I can go back to playing against the AI. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to comment on my mistakes.

[akots]

... I can put a city back where I started. I will try to find someone early and take their capitol. I think the tile 1SE of the plains hill is either horse or a metal. ...

You cannot seriously count on that. I mean finding somebody rapidly. Map should have a lot of empty space. That is easier to find and archipelago map is good for rexing and you have cheap courthouses. If going for a war, you have to do it very-very early and then, maintenance will kill your research. Also, you won't get tech superiority unless the guy is a complete newbie. Your research will be quite slow at least for the first 50 turns. Slower than most of the players.

You might have horse or metal but gambling on this might not be the right thing. It can as well be empty. So, making a mistake is one thing but persisting with this mistake is another mistake IMO. That's what Ciceron said some time ago.

But again, you never know how it will turn out. May be your decision is not logical or experience-based but it could be a lucky move and you still will be doing OK. Ever won a lottery? I never did so am trying to rationalize things. Simon won a few times probably. He always pops something good from huts and gets that wonder when built simultaneously on the same turn with somebody else.

[socralynnek]

It all depends on which players you are playing against. But normally you can expect in a pitboss to have some neighbor which is kind of aggressive, especially if the neighbor sees that you don't have much defense.

Seems like some more people have moved instead of settling, so others might have the same roblems as you have.

I don't know whether moving the Settler again is worth it, but I am no expert in capital city placement anyway.

Settling in place might be alright. I guess, at some point you need a city on the island with ivory, whether you use the ivory in your capital or not.

[Robi D]

I'm joining in on the conversation late so akots and BCLG have covered what i would have said so i'll add only a couple of thoughts

First with Archi map production is at a preimium given the discontinuity of the land which leaves coast/sea tiles in just about every cities BFC. And in MP games production is the most important resource so settling on a plains hill is a waste of hammers, which you wont have a lot of on an Archi map.

As for moving the settler (which you already have) i have a hard and fast rule to settle on the spot unless i can see that moving would be beneficial. The reason for this is i have never seen the map scripting place a settler on a spot that the BFC would be bad, it's above average at worst (although everything outside the BFC might be a giant icy wasteland) and secondly moving blindly means you can end up no better or ever worse off. You can end up paying for a bad gamble for the rest of the game.

[BCLG100]

It's up to you, you can settle here and try and swap your capitals early with a GE (forge GP I rarely bother with early wonders and with a hammer less start would be quite a challenge). Personally, due to the time spent moving backwards and forwards I would just settle here and be done with it, chop out that second settler asap and plant it in the original starting location/if you find somewhere better.

[SilentConfusion]

(although everything outside the BFC might be a giant icy wasteland)

This wouldn't really happen, would it? ;)


And once again, I appreciate you guys taking the time to help me learn.

[Robi D]

This wouldn't really happen, would it? ;)


Only if your name is Robi and your civ is Byzantine:rolleyes:

[SilentConfusion]

Only if your name is Robi and your civ is Byzantine:rolleyes:

I guess I'm safe then.

[SilentConfusion]

Alright guys. We're back with more. The game was down and then paused for a while so you didn't miss much.

I decided to settle in place rather than moving, although I realized my mistake. In this instance I decided to stick with my current position, even though akots correctly pointed out that to persist in a mistake is an even greater mistake. My plan was to chop/whip a settler quickly getting one out as quickly as possible to put it back where I started. I'll have to make up for my bad capitol with quantity. To move back and settle there would pretty much mean I would get only one semi-good city on my island. This way I get this Fish site (which isn't that great) and a city farther south with grass river forests.

Here's what it looked like when I settled on the plains hill:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0031.jpg

I started building a Fast Worker to chop a settler, the fast worker would get the EXP boost with the first border pop. My warrior explored the rest of my island. On t=5 my neighbor popped their borders (I guess they didn't wander before settling):

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0220.jpg

This is very close. I think we're going to transition into the take someone else's capitol mode. Looks like it's going to be Gandhi of Russia's capitol. Guess I'll need some Fishing and some Sailing after BW. If I get copper (which would be absolutely great) I'll be able to put two axes onto their continent with a galley.

My warrior finishes exploring the island after having found way too much desert and not enough food. He is able to spawnbust the whole island on t=9 (only 4 turns after barbs were able to appear. This means any barbs that spawn are more likely to be on my opponent's islands if they aren't properly spawnbusted. Here it is:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0242.jpg

With a galley I could drop two troops two tiles from their capitol without having been seen. Without copper the best I can send is archers, but that requires another tech. Without copper I will have to have more than two troops, which means either waves of two troops at a time or more than one galley. Four warriors would probably be enough. Substitute in some archers and it would definitely be enough. People don't like to rush for archery, so the best I'd be facing is probably 2 warriors. Any spawnbusting troops he has that are more than two tiles from the capitol won't get there in time. I'll know if they have slavery by then and they will whip another warrior most likely. In the picture it probably makes more sense to land on the forest for defense.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0247invasion.jpg

So the current wish list is two galleys and four troops to invade, with perhaps some more for a second wave. With demo-work I might be able to tell if Russia builds a lot of warriors.

The questions I have to ask myself:
-Is a barracks a good idea or a waste of hammers? I'm thinking with galley-space limited I'll want them to have promotions, but not sure if a second wave would be more helpful than promoted units.
-Are archers likely to be needed? I am thinking I'll want to attack before getting archery so it will be warriors or axes (fingers crossed).
-How do i micro my poor land to get all those troops faster? Obviously with forest chops, but what about a work boat after sailing for the fish to fuel growth for whipping? I'll have to count how many hammers I'll have and see what I need to build and match resources with needs.

Here's an overview of my island with resource bubbles on. Notice all the desert and the lack of food resources (no seafood anywhere except the fish in the capitol). I think much of the riverside grassland will have to be farmed.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae329/silentconfusion/Civ4ScreenShot0249.jpg

[socralynnek]

I think, you should get a Work Boat as soon as possible after BW. It will greatly help rusing.
Gandhi idn't start with mining, right? So the chances that he has some good efense soon are slim.

But if you don't get Copper, it might be difficult. So, let's see agan in 7 turns...

[BCLG100]

You can always put two axes on the ivory and move them one tile north east at the same time you land the other two axes and save having to build a second galley. He might be able to spot them though so i'm not sure.

[SilentConfusion]

Ok, well I haven't really been updating this. The reason being that over half of the people playing backed out and reverted to AI. It was just my civ and a couple others with the vast majority of my opponents kicked to AI, including Russia who is the only one I had met.

Well I played it out for a while, discovering Copper 1SE of my capitol and I teched wheel>fishing>sailing while building warriors and axes. I pre-chopped all of my forests and when I got Copper hooked up I chopped them all into Axes. When I got Sailing I 2-pop whipped the capitol and transported the Axes over. As my opponent was AI, didn't have to worry too much about him realizing what I was doing with those axes next to his border. With 3 Axes and 3 Warriors I took his Capitol. I should have maybe waited a turn as he was about to found a new city, but I didn't want to risk him whipping another archer and giving me trouble capturing, so I just killed him.

Right about that time, it was the general consensus that the game was just not what it was supposed to be with only a few players playing a bunch of AI. So the game was abandoned. It was surmised that perhaps the island starts (and poor ones at that) had led people to become disinterested.

[socralynnek]

I guess, we should start another CDZ pitboss soon. The other one is almost over. And we have a very low dropping rate.

It's sad to see a game that one invested a few months ends in such a way...

[Shabbaman]

The reason being that over half of the people playing backed out and reverted to AI.

That's a problem with playing online, especially in large pitbosses: people have difficulty finding the time or the discipline to keep on playing. And I guess a lot of people get demotivated when they are in (what they think is) an unwinnable situation). If you make someone ragequit you could count that as a win:D

The solution is to play smaller games with people you know and/or that are known to be thrustworthy.

[BCLG100]

I guess, we should start another CDZ pitboss soon. The other one is almost over. And we have a very low dropping rate.

It's sad to see a game that one invested a few months ends in such a way...

furiey offered to host one a few weeks ago but not many people wanted to play so it sort of died out

[SilentConfusion]

furiey offered to host one a few weeks ago but not many people wanted to play so it sort of died out

I would be willing to join a game with you guys. I am very good about playing my turns and I won't quit. I'd hopefully either get beat by you guys but learn something in the process or manage to beat you and feel very proud of myself. I'm betting on the former, but you never know.

I'm in a game currently with BCLG100, who can hopefully vouch that I take my turns and have a good attitude. If you guys are looking to start a game with a small number of active players, I'd be up for that if you'd have me.