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Stapel
08-10-2009, 20:05
Here's the start. After moving my 3 warriors, no extra bonus was shown. So I settled right away. Next turn, I'll probably use my worker for scouting purposes........

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=308&stc=1&d=1255021502

Stapel
11-10-2009, 14:20
I founded my 2nd city on the coast in the east. The desert til south west seems a nice spot for city 3.

There is one warrior north east (on a corn tile). He will pop a goody hut next turn.

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=310&stc=1&d=1255259984

Stapel
11-10-2009, 14:23
So far, the only concern is that I have just one happyness resource.

Stapel
25-10-2009, 10:41
Turn 19:

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=319&stc=1&d=1256460073

Stapel
25-10-2009, 10:53
So far, the only concern is that I have just one happyness resource.

Though I have a dozen tiles (at most) to discover on my peninsula, it looks like I really have one luxury resource. Possibly Barbu has given every player/peninsula just one. In that case, I might have a monopoly on ivory, which is not a bad thing.

As it appears, there are 4 massive desert corridors. This means that conquering the land of a neighbour is quite hard and probably rather useless for a very long time, possibly even to the end. It's gonna be a builder's game. Capitols are pretty far away from each other. In the CtC game, it was clear from the beginning that war between Egypt (me & Plux) and England/Groningen/Straland (Matrix) was inevitable. Not in this game.

So far, I have met 1 neighbour. Plattfuss, as De Gaule, is south of my land. We've agreed on peace until 0AD and thereafter peace with a 10 turn notice.

Stapel
29-10-2009, 22:19
Well, I do not have 4 neighbours, but only two. That's quite a difference!

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=325&stc=1&d=1256847579

Stapel
30-10-2009, 12:53
Having but 2 (land-)neigbours has quite an impact, I think.

My original plan was to use 4 warriors to go in 4 directions, to make sure I would meet all players asap. Now I guess I should simply use 2 of them, and wait a bit longer.

Assuming that every player has only 2 neigbours, it als becomes more appealing to try to conquer a neighbour's land.

I still haven't met someone in the west, though I have crossed the long corridor. My warrior in the south is now heading east.

I have now 3 workers, two cities and one settler. The third settler will found a city on the spot as marked in post 4. I will build another settler, to hook the copper in the northwest.

barbu1977
30-10-2009, 15:07
Assuming that every player has only 2 neigbours, it als becomes more appealing to try to conquer a neighbour's land.


This is the reason the map has been tweeked.

Darkness
30-10-2009, 16:11
Assuming that every player has only 2 neigbours, it als becomes more appealing to try to conquer a neighbour's land.


Definately. But considering the long distances between the capitals this will probably be quite a bit in the future.


I have now 3 workers, two cities and one settler. The third settler will found a city on the spot as marked in post 4. I will build another settler, to hook the copper in the northwest.

What copper? I don't see it on the map...
What about the spot in the southwest? With the cattle, clams, corn and ivory? That seems the best spot for the third city to me actually.

Stapel
30-10-2009, 16:39
Definately. But considering the long distances between the capitals this will probably be quite a bit in the future.

Platfuss' capital is only 4 tiles from the corridor :D ! The desert tiles south of the cow, marks the middle!


What copper? I don't see it on the map...
What about the spot in the southwest? With the cattle, clams, corn and ivory? That seems the best spot for the third city to me actually.
Sure, the 3rd city WILL be where you suggest. It is the spot as can be seen in the pic in post 4!

Thereafter, my 4th city will be in the NW. I think the pics are from before bronze working. I've altered the pic, now including a brown dot where the (only resource of) copper appeared, and a green dot where I might build the 4th city, depending on some more unveiling of terrain.

http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=326&stc=1&d=1256913546

Stapel
30-10-2009, 16:42
BTW, I have developed mining and brozne working. Chopping has begun, Another worker first in my cap, then a settler.

In 2 turns, I will know mysticism. I do need some culture asap.
Then I will get to pasture-building, then probably cottage building, then fishing, maybe fishing first, as it is cheap.

Stapel
05-11-2009, 13:34
I'm having a shot at Stone Henge, in Scheveningen (east). Not sure that is a good idea, but if it fails, I can use the money, I guess. Worst would actually be the delay in culture in cities that won't build monuments themselves.

In the west, I have met Matrix. I was about 3 tiles on his peninsula, in total 25 tiles from my capital. Matrix claimed his cap was about 25 tiles further west. Anyway, I decided to go for a very firm peace deal: no shit until 1000AD and 20 turns cancellation thereafter.

Darkness
05-11-2009, 16:50
I'm having a shot at Stone Henge, in Scheveningen (east). Not sure that is a good idea, but if it fails, I can use the money, I guess. Worst would actually be the delay in culture in cities that won't build monuments themselves.


Go for it. If it fails the money is a good safetynet and if it works you get easy culture (great for blocking those chokepoints south and west) and a great shot a prophet. Then all you need to do is gamble right on which religion to found and you've got yourself a great foundation for a good economy.


In the west, I have met Matrix. I was about 3 tiles on his peninsula, in total 25 tiles from my capital. Matrix claimed his cap was about 25 tiles further west. Anyway, I decided to go for a very firm peace deal: no shit until 1000AD and 20 turns cancellation thereafter.

Seems like a smart move. It will leave you free to focus on your other neighbour until that time. Just keep in mind that Matrix' reputation isn't spotless, so don't let your guard down...

Stapel
06-11-2009, 14:53
Go for it. If it fails the money is a good safetynet and if it works you get easy culture (great for blocking those chokepoints south and west) and a great shot a prophet. Then all you need to do is gamble right on which religion to found and you've got yourself a great foundation for a good economy.
It won't be eays to found any religion. So far, I'm not focusing on it. I have some great city spots, if I can use the 20 tiles. I simply need soem culture in any city.



Seems like a smart move. It will leave you free to focus on your other neighbour until that time. Just keep in mind that Matrix' reputation isn't spotless, so don't let your guard down...
We are so far apart, that war is useless and unlikely anyway.

Darkness
06-11-2009, 17:33
We are so far apart, that war is useless and unlikely anyway.

I thought the same in RTW2, and got a rather nasty surprise from a surprisingly agressive Matrix. I'm not saying he's a full-blown warmonger these days, but he sure is far more agressive than he used to be (he used to be a builder with a tendency of "digging in" in his corner, but that's definately in the past)...

But then again, I read in the open thread that this is a huge sized map, so that does significantly decrease the chance of war. Which makes wonders even more attractive, since passive games favour builders starting their builder-empires ASAP, which means Great People and Great Wonders might give you that one edge you need...

Stapel
09-11-2009, 09:18
Stone Henge was built in a far away land. Well, I got 48 gold... The city of Scheveningne will now make a monument. Nothing lost!



About a possible back stab by Matrix (or others): City razing is off. Long distance invasions thus become even more futile.

Darkness
09-11-2009, 14:08
About a possible back stab by Matrix (or others): City razing is off. Long distance invasions thus become even more futile.


Too bad about Stonehenge, but 48 gold isn't bad at this stage of the game.

With city razing off and this being a huge sized map, this has become a complete builders game. I'd start aiming for space race as soon as I could if I were you... Optimize the economy and teching and get a good solid resource trading partnership with a weaker opponent going to help you grow... Also, if at all possible, get a religion. My personal favourites in builders games are Confuscianism and Taoism, just because their requisite techs are really useful (code of laws unlocks courthouses and the FP and philosophy unlocks pacifism and the opportunity to get a few quick great leaders)...

Stapel
19-11-2009, 11:37
I've been wanting to add some more info, but there is not too much to be said.

-In the northwest, a city was founded on the green dot. A monument was chopped asap. In 6 turns, the cultural borders will expand, and at that time a fishing boat from Scheveningen will arrive too, to hook up the fish N-NE of the city. In 4 turns a cottage will be finished NW of the city. Another worker (#7) will be there too.
-The cap will grow to size 3 in 2 turns. Two workers are building cottages
-Scheveningen will hook up the fish in 5 turns. It has 2 mines near.
-The city in the SW will hook up the fish in 3 turns.

-Trade routes are possible with my southern neighbour. I'm always puzzled by it. Does he know sailing? That's a fair possibility in itself. Yet, my cap has no connection with any of my coastal cities.

-In Plattfuss' land (south) I have met IanDC. Sent him a PM, no reaction yet.
Plattfuss has a horsie in his cap, waste of shields, I guess.

-I'm heading for sailing now, then masonry. Scheveningen will have a go at TGLighthouse. Maybe a tough chance, as I could have gone for it earlier, but a failed attempt ain't that bad. Scheveningen should run at 11 shields and there are 4 forrest to be chopped.

-Oh, I should be considered lucky, having two lux (ivory and whale). Will take a while to hook up the whale though.

Pics later.

Stapel
20-11-2009, 08:18
Some overview pics, and a dotmap for the SE of my peninsula. I made it before the horse showed up. Idea?

Darkness
20-11-2009, 10:03
I'd add four cities:
1 - Directly W of the horses.
2 - Directly S of the cattle between Stapelburg and Besthmen
3 - On the hill on the Westcoast, N of Besthmen
4 - Somewhere on one of the desert tiles NE of Stapelburh, perhaps moving one of the coastal cities one tile W.

Stapel
20-11-2009, 11:51
I'd add four cities:
1 - Directly W of the horses.
2 - Directly S of the cattle between Stapelburg and Besthmen
I figured I had to add two cities in that area anyway. However, I will probably focus on coastal cities first. Most defenitely if my shot to TGL works out, but probably too if it fails.
3 - On the hill on the Westcoast, N of Besthmen
4 - Somewhere on one of the desert tiles NE of Stapelburg, perhaps moving one of the coastal cities one tile W.
I guess for these spots the same thought. Other dots first?


BTW, Oracle was founded somewhere

Darkness
20-11-2009, 16:01
I figured I had to add two cities in that area anyway. However, I will probably focus on coastal cities first. Most defenitely if my shot to TGL works out, but probably too if it fails.

I guess for these spots the same thought. Other dots first?


BTW, Oracle was founded somewhere

Absolutely. I'd say these are cities to fill out your land. Especially the last two. I'd start with the cities that give more added value to your empire (new resources, or blocking access to your part of the world. Or cities that can grow quickly (like the one with the cow then))...

Stapel
24-11-2009, 08:32
Well, my southern neighbour, Plattfuss' French, have TGL.

Stapel
22-12-2009, 08:51
Turn 77, 950 BC.

It's been a month, so an update would be ok.

Not that much going on, though there are some interesting developments.

I've built 1 more city, Rotjeknor, on the south of my island, near the corridor to Plattfuss. It can be used as a post to once kick Plattfuss butt'. In the overview map you can see what it is all about.

Plattfuss has the Great Lighthouse, so he has anl economical advantage. He has also founded (and converted to) Christianity and has switched to organised religion and hereditary rule.

My cities, apart from the youngest one, have Hammans (+2 smilies), quite an advantages on this lux-dry map.

Stapel
23-12-2009, 09:07
Despite lying in in the open thread about not having any lux, MAtrix has (at least) 2 gold and 5 spice....

Yet, his city placement is questionable. My warrior is now near a tile where he can build a city with corn, cow & gold within the first nine. However, he preferred to build a city near the marble, which he has irrigated. Sometimes, I don't get what he is doing..........

Darkness
23-12-2009, 17:23
Turn 77, 950 BC.

It's been a month, so an update would be ok.

Not that much going on, though there are some interesting developments.

I've built 1 more city, Rotjeknor, on the south of my island, near the corridor to Plattfuss. It can be used as a post to once kick Plattfuss butt'. In the overview map you can see what it is all about.

Plattfuss has the Great Lighthouse, so he has anl economical advantage. He has also founded (and converted to) Christianity and has switched to organised religion and hereditary rule.

My cities, apart from the youngest one, have Hammans (+2 smilies), quite an advantages on this lux-dry map.

The Hammams could be a big advantage. More smiles means bigger cities. And more population is more power in CIV.

I can actually understand building a city near the marble, if one would aim at an early, marble-buildspeed-boosted World Wonder. But that would require some other improvement on the marble... The other spot (the one that you indicated) would be far more powerful (more growth and more happyness). Put me on the list of people that doesn't understand this move by Matrix....

Stapel
13-01-2010, 12:37
Update:

During this game, I have sent a dozen PMs to IanDC, but he didn't reply once. He also refused to communicate in-game. However, 7 or 8 turns ago (turn 88 - 675 BC now), suddenly the diplo screen popped up: a proposal for a health deal: his pig for my cow. And he actually added some text: he would be interested in giving me wine, in exchange for my ivory. Since I have health resources in abundance (he should have the same surplus), I kindly declined, but I did send him a message both in-game and by PM.

Ian,

I'm not really interested in pig. At this stage, it seems superfluous to add more health bonus. That might change, of course.. I am a bit suprised you need extra health.....

I'm far more interested in exchanging luxuaries. Wine for Ivory seems fair. However, Ivory has a big advantage and a big disadvantage. It opens the possibilities to create War Elephants (quite helpful for destroying Matrix), but the downside it that it expires as a luxuary at some stage.

I suggest that these two features balance eachother. Therefor, I propose that we make the deal and agree on its duration: to the end of the game, or when war between our nations breaks out.

I simply added the deal. Ian didn't bother to reply in any way, but did accept the deal. I've tried to contact him 3 more times in-game, but no word. A few naive brain cells of mine think the acceptance could be seen as an gareement, but the overwhelming majority knows better.

This morning, I figured it was enough. I will simply break up the deal (possible in 3 turns). However, I've already started to max out the population, based on the wine bonus.
So, I contacted Matrix. He has the same communications breakdown with Ian....

Matrix has 2 gold resources. As addressed earlier in this thread, he has hooked up only one, but he will have the 2nd gold within 10 turns. As soon as he has, I will cancel the deal with Ian and send my ivory to Matrix instead. This has 2 extra advantages for Matrix. He not only has the ability to build Elephants, but Ian won't have the ability any longer. Matrix was not too impressed by this arguement. I think he should be, as Ian is stronger than he is and they are rather close. Anyway, he accepted the deal and agreed on keeping it intact when Ivory expires.


There is another reason I wasn't interested in Ian's pig. Platfuss has pig. And I will take it! Platfuss' economy is racing forward, mostly due to TGL. The fact he has TGL and Christianity makes him a big a prize. I have the elephant advantage, so I have sunk into easy war mode. My cities have hammams, are nearly pop-maxed, have barracks and two have stables. I do know construction, so I will concentrate on WEs and Cats. I have 9 workers and many forrests have already been pre-chopped. In 25 turns, I will notify Plattfuss our deal is over and in 35 turns I will strike. I will chop the enormous forrest surplus in 18 turns. This should bring a surprise power increase. Even if Platfuss suspects things too early and will build up his own force, the elephants should give me a fair chance of succes.

Stapel
13-01-2010, 12:38
Some pics:

Stapel
20-01-2010, 09:31
Guess what, Plattfuss wants more peace:

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=357&stc=1&d=1263972813

I'll kindly decline!

Stapel
26-01-2010, 14:36
After my decline, he tried once more:

Anyhow, my problem is that I will have to build up military if we do not extent our treaty and that would be a pity because it is a complete waste of resources. So if we could both be sure not to be attacked that would give us both the chance to invest into something more useful than military.

I do not think either of us will have such a big lead over the other that he will be able to conquer the territory in a quick campaign. And everything else than a quick campaign is again a waste of units and resources. So my conclusion is war between our two nations cannot be profitable unless one of us makes a big mistake which I dont think will happen. If war is not possible why not make a longer lasting deal?

I decided not to reply at all to this message....


My empire is now in full war modus: mostly elephants and catapults. In 8 turns, a scientist will be born. In 2 turns I will discover monarchy, after that feudalism will be due in 10-11 turns. The question is: can I have 2 (free) revolutions in one Golden Age? If so, I will use the GL asap and switch to her-rule and slavery immediately, to switch to Vassalage in the ame GA.

barbu1977
26-01-2010, 15:30
The question is: can I have 2 (free) revolutions in one Golden Age?

IIRC, there is a minimum number of turns you have to spend between revolutions. I guess it's a case of browsing the CFC forums. (or playtest it)

Darkness
26-01-2010, 18:00
The question is: can I have 2 (free) revolutions in one Golden Age?

Yes, IF enough turns have passed since the first revolution you can do a second revolution in 1 golden age (5 turns, IIRC on normal speed)

Plattfuss is definately suspecting something. I wonder if it is enough to stop you from conquering him...

Stapel
26-01-2010, 19:20
Yes, IF enough turns have passed since the first revolution you can do a second revolution in 1 golden age (5 turns, IIRC on normal speed)
It shoudo work, I guess!

Plattfuss is definately suspecting something. I wonder if it is enough to stop you from conquering him...

Indeed.

Alea iacta est! I'll go for war anyway. Plattfuss is deeply wrong if he thinks anything other than a quick campaign is a waste. He is too much of a prize for that with TGL, Christian holy city and now the university of S.

Stapel
29-01-2010, 11:20
ok, last try. From what I can see on the demo screen you have build around 20 axes (or equivalents in other units) and continue. I suppose you havent build them to hang around so you are planning an attack. Earliest attack time as you laid out in our treaty is 10 turns after 0 AD. So thats another 20 turns (if you honor our treaty which I think you will do).

From Demographics it seems that your army is starting to hurt your economy. This will continue the more you build units.

I can only tell you that IMHO you will not be able to kill me. I play Civ for quite some time and you can ask Ian that I am not easily getting killed. I am allied with Ian btw.

So what I can offer you is a 3-way-alliance between you Ian and me. We could kill matrix together and share his territory and resources. You can have my share of his territory on top. I would like to have my share of the resources tho. This would make our alliances the strongest power in the game able to cope with Dan or Gitbliss.

We can also discuss if you are interested in switching to my religion. You might have seen that I build the Apostolic Palace, which will give any christian temple or monastry you build +2 hammer.

Think about it and let me know latest in 3 turns.

Best,
Platt

So, he does suspect something :) .

To be honoust, he offers nothing to persuade me. If I want to wipe out Matrix, I don't need him. But Matrix is pretty far away and not much of a prize.

I am a bit puzzled by his claim he is allied with IanDC. Ian has refused to communicate so far with both me and Matrix. So, him going as far as being allies in this game would be odd. In his PM, Plattfuss refers to my 20 Axes. I have 4 axes..., and 3 spears, 7 elephants and 5 catapults. In the next 10 turns, lots of wood will be converted to more cats. Ian has a scout in my lands, so he could have told Platt about some elephants....

Anyway, I'll take my chances.

Q:
What about extra hammers for Christianity... What is that all about?

Aggie
29-01-2010, 12:15
Interesting developments in this game!

Darkness
29-01-2010, 14:24
Q:
What about extra hammers for Christianity... What is that all about?

I honestly don't have the slightest idea...

You may want to remove that scout of Ian fronm your territory. Plattfuss knows you're coming, but there is no sense in allowing Ian to tell him when and where exactly with a few turns advance warning, if the alliance claim is true.
Also interesting how he claims he can offer the three-way alliance when Ian doesn't communicate with you at all. Since when does Plattfuss speak for IanDC?

What's the powergraph looking like right now?

Stapel
29-01-2010, 20:07
I honestly don't have the slightest idea...
I'm puzz;ed too. Mayeb Beam knows; he did a thorough investigation on reli-palace-stuff.

You may want to remove that scout of Ian fronm your territory. Plattfuss knows you're coming, but there is no sense in allowing Ian to tell him when and where exactly with a few turns advance warning, if the alliance claim is true.
Also interesting how he claims he can offer the three-way alliance when Ian doesn't communicate with you at all. Since when does Plattfuss speak for IanDC?
Well, the moment and the location are pretty obvious anyway.... The moment will be 10 turns after 0AD and the city on the corridor is the target.

What's the powergraph looking like right now?

Good! So far that is.

http://civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=358&stc=1&d=1264788430

Stapel
29-01-2010, 20:09
Interesting developments in this game!

Good to see you lurking here!

BTW:

My powergraph hasn't seen its most impressive upward curve yet :D !

barbu1977
29-01-2010, 21:18
Now, that is a nice powergraph.



Thanx for the nice spoiler. Too bad we lurkers don't have the other sides.

Stapel
30-01-2010, 09:24
As expected, finally a word from Ian DC...
Strat reading at the bottom, to figure aout what this is all about.



Well, good to hear from you!

To be honost, Ian,

For a brief moment I figured that you accepting the lux-deal (in-game) could mean you had accepted the terms. But that would be naive, I guess. Since I hadn't heard any word from you, after several requests, both over PM and in-game, I contacted Matrix. It appeared he had the same communications breakdown.

The point is that I will end our wine-ivory deal in about 5 turns or so.

Plattfuss informed me about a three-way split of Matrix' land. To be fair, he wasn't persuasive. So, I will decline.

Until now, I had never before learnt about civstat's possibilities to send messages. In the past, the CDZ forum has always been the place to set our deals.

One more thing.
Now I know you and Plattfuss are actually acting together, I must kindly request your scout to leave my peninsula! Please do not make a fuss about that.

Cheers,
Stapel

Hi,

Sorry, I hadn't actually logged onto the site for a long time, I tend to just check the thread. Messages via civstats are probably the surest way for a quick reply.
I agree the terms (retrospectively) of the lux trade - the wine will be renewed to you when Ivory expires - unless the trade has already ceased for other reasons before hand.

Have you had contact with Plattfuss regarding a three way split of Matrix, it would provide us all with spice & you & platt a gold each (I can trade for a gold) ?

IanDC

Ian,

I'm not really interested in pig. At this stage, it seems superfluous to add more health bonus. That might change, of course.. I am a bit suprised you need extra health.....

I'm far more interested in exchanging luxuaries. Wine for Ivory seems fair. However, Ivory has a big advantage and a big disadvantage. It opens the possibilities to create War Elephants (quite helpful for destroying Matrix), but the downside it that it expires as a luxuary at some stage.

I suggest that these two features balance eachother. Therefor, I propose that we make the deal and agree on its duration: to the end of the game, or when war between our nations breaks out.

Stapel
30-01-2010, 09:34
I've also met Robi up north. It seems like all peninsulas have sea corridors somewhere, so my galley got there.



We are agreed then! The no settlement clause seems rather obvious.

You would eventually face the same problem in the other direction although by that time i should have a galley headed your way so it wouldn't be an issue, its your choice what you wish to do. I happy with peace with 10 turns notification, i'd also like to add a no settlement clause in each others areas for the duration of the peace treaty

Sounds fair enough. However, I am fine with travelling the other way around. Of course, I might face the same problem there ( I do not know).

There are only 6 sea tiles between the borders of your city (the one I discovered) and my border. Simply head south!

What about a peacy treaty: Eternal peace, with a 10 turn cancellation notification.

Hello traveller,

Have you come to kill me again:p

Hopefully we can have more peaceful relations this time around. Your open borders request has left me with a bit of a problem, while i do not wish to impede the progress on your exploration having OB leaves me at a large disadvantage due to you having trade routes to me but i can't have trade routes to you until i expolre your way. I will have a galley headed in your direction once its completed in the next few turns.

Once i have a trade route with you i'm am happy to sign an OB but in the meantime may i suggest an agreement to let your galley past. If you agree i am willing to accept you doing a DoW, once your galley has past through my waters peacefully we can sign a peace treaty. By the time your galley would be heading back my way we would have a OB in place.

If you are happy with this arrangement let me know and your galley can proceed

Regards
Robi

Stapel
07-02-2010, 16:36
Twelve turns before hell breaks loose.

Stapel
07-02-2010, 16:36
Interesting:

Darkness
20-02-2010, 16:52
Well, the great emperor of the Ruckhoven Empire has gone skying, so he has instructed his loyal general to declare war on Plattfuss in his absence.

Some pictures to tell the tale of this turn...

The Ruckhoven offensive forces:
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4527/civ4screenshot0028.jpg

Plattfuss primary defensive force:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2012/civ4screenshot0029.jpg

The Powergraph:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2488/civ4screenshot0032.jpg

The Rockhoven demographics:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9966/civ4screenshot0027.jpg

BCLG100
20-02-2010, 16:59
Is he still at war with DanDridge? I'm guessing that must have been a phoney war as Dan's power graph doesn't look to have altered at all!

Darkness
21-02-2010, 16:15
Is he still at war with DanDridge? I'm guessing that must have been a phoney war as Dan's power graph doesn't look to have altered at all!

According to F4 there are no wars besides Stapel vs Plattfuss.
I'm guessing DanDridge vs Plattfuss was either phoney war or one of them wanted a galley to pass through the lands of the other and they couldn't negotiate open borders.


Unfortunately it looks like this war will not end well for the Ruckhoven Empire. There are almost 80 units in or near Lyon this turn (24 swordsmen, 29 axemen, 24 catapults, 1 spearman and 3 chariots). Either Plattfuss has a monster economy and really outbuilt Stapel with regards to units or Stapel got played by Plattfuss and IandDC. :(

Darkness
22-02-2010, 20:58
Well, after the battle at the gates of Lyons the Ruckhoven forces have decided to make a tactical retreat. Basically our forces have been decimated. I did get a great general. Plattfuss got 3... :(

I did trade with Beam (fish for pigs) and DanDridge (open borders and worldmap for both)...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9522/civ4screenshot0033l.jpg


http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5855/civ4screenshot0034.jpg


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1852/civ4screenshot0035.jpg

Darkness
23-02-2010, 11:37
I got a PM from Plattfuss:

Hi Stapel,

sorry, for killing your stack but you left me no choice. Since you destroyed my game I think it would be fair to put me into the position I would have had without your attack. I had to invest around 2600 shields into units and another 1600 gold for upgrades. I am waiting for your response on if and how you want to do that. My idea would be to compensate the shields by cities and the gold by the same amount in gold. I would also like to revive the idea of a 3-way alliance.

Best,
Platt

PS: Darkness, I put you in cc since I do not know when Stapel will return. I will also send you a proposal I made to Stapel regarding a three way alliance with Ian and me in case you will sub him for some time and are able to make strategic decisions.

He wants Stapel to pay for his units? And give up cities in return for peace? Because Stapel destroyed his game? What?

Who cares the army is destroyed? Stapel gambled to get an advantage. Plattfuss played his defense very well, so Stapel (and me :( ) lost. So basically this game is already lost for the Ruckhoven empire. And now Plattfuss wants to have Stapel pay for this in gold and cities? That would essentially make Stapel Plattfuss' bitch, and basically make Stapel an afterthought in this game. He would never recover from that payment (which comes in addition to the investment Stapel made to attack Plattfuss). I would rather go down in flames and fight Plattfuss every step of the way. Peace would be preferable, but only straight up. I am not going to pay any kind of damages for simply playing the game as I like to play it. And I know Stapel well enough to say that he would never agree to this either.

I guess it is time to tell Plattfuss to stuff it. If he wants compensation he'll have to take it from the cold, dead hands of the Ruckhoven empire.... :D

Darkness
23-02-2010, 11:43
My response:

Hi Plattfuss,

I will say this immediately: There will be no kind of payment or compensation for your expenses to fend of the attack. War is a part of the game, and I will make no excuses for trying to turn that part of the game into an advantage for the Ruckhoven empire. Your defense was very, very impressive but if you want peace, the only deal I will accept is peace straight up. If you want anything else, you'll have to take it by force. I realize that you certainly have the forces to attempt this, but that will cost you an even bigger investment than the one you have already done. If you're willing to do that then I will fight you every step of the way. :)

Best regards,
Darkness

BCLG100
23-02-2010, 13:44
Why don't you suggest for peace that the three of you go after dandridge and he takes the better cities and Ian and stapel fight it out for the rest? he gets something and you dont lose anything.

Darkness
23-02-2010, 14:59
Why don't you suggest for peace that the three of you go after dandridge and he takes the better cities and Ian and stapel fight it out for the rest? he gets something and you dont lose anything.

DanDridge is on a completely different island, IIRC, so war on him isn't really feasible at this point of the game...

Darkness
23-02-2010, 19:36
I tried to retreat the army, but unfortunately the entire offensive force has been destroyed. All I can do now is dig in and bleed Plattfuss as much as I can to really make him earn whatever he is able to take from the Ruckhoven Empire....

Darkness
23-02-2010, 21:49
Plattfuss' response:

Actually, I would like to avoid that, since it will not increase our already slim chances to be a meaningful part of the game. On the other hand I think that if you do something stupid that handicaps another player it would only be fair to give some compensation. What about giving me your second ivory at least?

If we come to a peace agreement. What do you think of the 3-way-alliance and when will Stapel come back?



He still wants stuff and he's still talking about "being mistreated". How difficult is it to understand that war is part of the game?



My response:

Why do you insist on acting like Stapel somehow mistreated you? War is part of the game. Stapel formulated a plan to try to use that to his advantage. You invested to counter that plan. That's just part of the game. There is no way any compensation will be paid. Period.

Peace straight up is the only deal that will be acceptable.

3-way alliance deals is long-term strategy. I'm just subbing for Stapel. I won't decide his long term diplomacy for him. He'll be back by next weekend, so if you want to talk long-term deals, you should take it up with him then.

BCLG100
24-02-2010, 02:44
I think he has a valid point about compensation. Stapel is effectively the loser in this war as eventually platfuss would be able to roll over him completly ending Stapels chance in the game but still leaving platfuss with the chance to win. As it stands neither side has high hopes in the game and it would take the co-operation of both to have an impact, thus, peace makes the most sense as a quick war is now out of the question.

Gifting platfuss the ivory is exchange for a longish peace deal makes good sense as stapel isn't using it right now anyway.

Regardless ivory for peace is a very good deal as both could be cancelled after 10 turns when stapel gets back if he so chooses. Either way by the sounds of it, the empire is not in a place currently where it could make any meaningful assault on platfuss in that time period anyway, nor would he be able to build an army of WE if that is an issue to think about.

Just my rather long two cents.

BCLG100
24-02-2010, 02:44
DanDridge is on a completely different island, IIRC, so war on him isn't really feasible at this point of the game...

Indeed but judging by the score of he has, war is inevitable so you may as well start planning for an early industrial war with him, perhaps with cannons.

Darkness
24-02-2010, 22:17
Plattfuss again:

Well, I said some 30 turns ago you will ruin my game and he basically said "I don't think so, lets see" and 30 turns later thats exactly what happened so I wouldn't say thats a friendly gesture.

But anyhow, it is the way it is, lets make the best out of it. So how would a peace deal look like? Are you thinking of a treaty til the end of the game?

My response:

Please understand that I will not make any decisions about game-long peace deals. I am subbing for Stapel, I will make no long term agreements. But a peace deal until 1000 AD seems like a good idea. If you want a longer deal, please contact Stapel this weekend, then he can make a decision on that.


Plattfuss seems to be pushing for long-term deals. And while I understand that, I have repeatedly said to him that I am just subbing for Stapel, I am not going to decide his long-term strategy for him....

Darkness
26-02-2010, 12:43
Plattfuss has got an impressive stack approaching the border of the Ruckhoven Empire, so I've decided to offer him ivory in exchange for peace....

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/97/civ4screenshot0041.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1776/civ4screenshot0040w.jpg

Darkness
26-02-2010, 20:48
Plattfuss declined. I would've probably done the same in his place. :)

Stapel will have to decide on any further diplomacy with Plattfuss then....

Darkness
27-02-2010, 15:05
Bye bye Rotjeknor... [wavey]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3105/civ4screenshot0042.jpg


4 turns to civil service. Then I can at least build/upgrade some units to bleed him while he conquers the Ruckhoven Empire...

Stapel
27-02-2010, 20:39
Back! But very tired.

That didn't work like I had hoped for....


Anyway, Plattfuss idea of me giving him compensation is totally

RIDICULOUS

Darkness
27-02-2010, 22:51
Back! But very tired.

That didn't work like I had hoped for....


Anyway, Plattfuss idea of me giving him compensation is totally

RIDICULOUS



Sorry about the way things went, Stapel, but Plattfuss just had much more units. :(

At least you should be able to build/upgrade to macemen in a few turns and bleed him if he decides to conquer the whole Ruckhoven empire. Cold comfort, I know, but it was the best I could do...

Stapel
28-02-2010, 11:30
Well, in the end, Plattfuss had too much time to build up a force too. I saw that coming, but there was no way back. I simply had no alternative for my units.

I was quite surprised by Plattfuss' production rates though.

In civ, the attacker has a huge disadvantage, because the 'first strike' is with the defender. Plattfuss could simply wait for my forces to be near and then hit me hard with cats (I suppose). My plan was that he had not enough units to really weaken my stack of elephants and cats....

As I see it, he had the units. My real misake was making my original peace deal too long and too solid......... He saw it coming.


Anyway, I've just played a turn. Things are pretty hopeless. Yet, I am still puzzled by Plattfuss' compensation plans..........

Darkness
28-02-2010, 13:02
Well, in the end, Plattfuss had too much time to build up a force too. I saw that coming, but there was no way back. I simply had no alternative for my units.

I was quite surprised by Plattfuss' production rates though.

In civ, the attacker has a huge disadvantage, because the 'first strike' is with the defender. Plattfuss could simply wait for my forces to be near and then hit me hard with cats (I suppose). My plan was that he had not enough units to really weaken my stack of elephants and cats....

As I see it, he had the units. My real misake was making my original peace deal too long and too solid......... He saw it coming.


Anyway, I've just played a turn. Things are pretty hopeless. Yet, I am still puzzled by Plattfuss' compensation plans..........

He hit our stack just ourside of Lyon with over a dozen catapults and then cleaned up with 40-50 axemen and swords. About 6-8 units survived that, but I was unable to retreat them...

Stapel
01-03-2010, 19:51
Things are really hopeless.


Would it be OK to simply allow Plattfuss to take over all my cities in a rather gentle way?

The only alternative I see is to let him take over my cities rather slowly. I can see the fun of it, in a way, but as far as I am concerned, my game is over.

I might as well shake Plattfuss' hand and see if I can assist him in a way to victory.

Darkness
01-03-2010, 21:03
Things are really hopeless.


Would it be OK to simply allow Plattfuss to take over all my cities in a rather gentle way?

The only alternative I see is to let him take over my cities rather slowly. I can see the fun of it, in a way, but as far as I am concerned, my game is over.

I might as well shake Plattfuss' hand and see if I can assist him in a way to victory.

That's a possibility. I would bleed him as much as I was able. Helping someone win is not very high on my list of priorities when playing CIV, but that's just my opinion...

Stapel
01-03-2010, 21:29
That's a possibility. I would bleed him as much as I was able. Helping someone win is not very high on my list of priorities when playing CIV, but that's just my opinion...

Point is: By bleeding him, I simply help someone else.....

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 08:56
Hi Stapel,

when we saw war was coming up you asked me if I had thread where I put all my comments regarding the development of the game. Since I do not maintain one I thought I put my comments up here where you can review them in context .

Plattfuss

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 08:58
... As it appears, there are 4 massive desert corridors. This means that conquering the land of a neighbour is quite hard and probably rather useless for a very long time, possibly even to the end. It's gonna be a builder's game. ...

So far, I have met 1 neighbour. Plattfuss, as De Gaule, is south of my land. We've agreed on peace until 0AD and thereafter peace with a 10 turn notice.

I completely agree with this assessment of yours. I thought by the way our treaty was made war was almost impossible. What I didnt had in mind was that you could not want to prolong the treaty once it was expiring. In that case I would have tried to make it last til the end of the game which at that point might have been easier to negotiate with you than later on.

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 09:38
There is another reason I wasn't interested in Ian's pig. Platfuss has pig. And I will take it! Platfuss' economy is racing forward, mostly due to TGL. The fact he has TGL and Christianity makes him a big a prize. I have the elephant advantage, so I have sunk into easy war mode. My cities have hammams, are nearly pop-maxed, have barracks and two have stables. I do know construction, so I will concentrate on WEs and Cats. I have 9 workers and many forrests have already been pre-chopped. In 25 turns, I will notify Plattfuss our deal is over and in 35 turns I will strike. I will chop the enormous forrest surplus in 18 turns. This should bring a surprise power increase. Even if Platfuss suspects things too early and will build up his own force, the elephants should give me a fair chance of succes.

I think in this situation your analysis has some correct points, e.g. that the French empire would be a nice prize. However, IMO you left out some rather important aspects of the analysis:

1) Economy and Techs
You are planning to attack a civ that is economically (and by the status of its research) advanced compared to you. IMO this is something you can only do if conditions are very favourable, e.g. they cannot see your demographics (and how you build up your army) and they have no army and you have less than 10 turns pre-announcement of war.
2) Espionage
If you had looked at the ratio of our espionage points you would have realised that at that point I was leading that ratio by far. I was able to see not only your demographics but also your research. And from what you were teching it was quite easy to conclude that you were on the road to war.
3) Christianity
Maybe you thought of it but you didnt mention it in your post: Having researched Christianity gave me the option to switch gov to Theocracy and thus to produce units with 5 exp. points. Quite an advantage over your 3 points units (not your WE due to stables, but cats etc.).
4) Tactical advantages and their influence on the balance of power
You add all possible bonuses to your side of the equation (like production bonuses due to shopping etc.) but you do not consider that I will of course do the same especially when I see thinks coming with about 30 turns heads-up.
5) War Elephants
War Elephants are nice but not invincible. They even have a disadvantage in that they make your attack plans and tactics very easily readable. Of course, there is going to be a stack of WE and cats. And, of course, since you are the attacker and will be entering my territory I will be able to pick the place for our encounter and have the freedom to produce the best matching units against your WE / cat stack.

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 09:43
Guess what, Plattfuss wants more peace:

I'll kindly decline!

See my comment next quote.

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 09:55
After my decline, he tried once more:

Quote:
"Anyhow, my problem is that I will have to build up military if we do not extent our treaty and that would be a pity because it is a complete waste of resources. So if we could both be sure not to be attacked that would give us both the chance to invest into something more useful than military.

I do not think either of us will have such a big lead over the other that he will be able to conquer the territory in a quick campaign. And everything else than a quick campaign is again a waste of units and resources. So my conclusion is war between our two nations cannot be profitable unless one of us makes a big mistake which I dont think will happen. If war is not possible why not make a longer lasting deal?"

I decided not to reply at all to this message....


My empire is now in full war modus: mostly elephants and catapults. In 8 turns, a scientist will be born. In 2 turns I will discover monarchy, after that feudalism will be due in 10-11 turns. ...

Latest at this point you must have known that I was fully aware of your attack plans. I was disappointed. IMO by giving you insight in my situation and the fact I knew your plans your plan had become unreasonable if not impossible. The maximum you could now achieve with your plan was a long dragging war with no quick winner and this kind of war in the end is a lose - lose situation.

On that turn I calculated I would have to start very soon to building military to match your stack of - I assumed - 50 units. I tried to delay it as much as possible since I was on the way to researching and building the Spiral Minaret which I think would have been possible and would have given me a nice lead in this game together with the AP and 3rd wonder giving bonuses on religious buildings. Well, I had to abandon that plan. :(

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 10:04
...

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 10:16
It shoudo work, I guess!



Indeed.

Alea iacta est! I'll go for war anyway. Plattfuss is deeply wrong if he thinks anything other than a quick campaign is a waste. He is too much of a prize for that with TGL, Christian holy city and now the university of S.

The decision had been made, you felt there was no alternative left for you and you were accepting this could mean defeat for both of us.

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 10:23
Well, in the end, Plattfuss had too much time to build up a force too. I saw that coming, but there was no way back. I simply had no alternative for my units.

Interesting

Plattfuss
03-04-2010, 10:37
Regarding the days around the big battle:
I had not expected things would work out so well. And even after the battle for a moment I wasnt sure if a counter-attack or a peace treaty would be my best alternative. Since the peace deal would not have given me any compensation for the losses due to war there was no real incentive to take it. So I decided to keep the options and tried to heal my units asap while also trying to negotiated a favourable peace deal.

I have to admit it was quite funny when you (resp. Darkness who was subbing you at that point) first rejected all request and then agreed to delivering ivory when he saw my stack at your border :D

So, in the end there was a happy end for me but I still think I would have been better off if we hadnt gone to war. But this will remain an open question.

BCLG100
03-04-2010, 13:50
Plattfuss aren't you still in the game? You're not really supposed to read spoilers until the end of the game, regardless of whether the person is eliminated, incase they contain information not known to you..

Darkness
04-04-2010, 19:19
Plattfuss aren't you still in the game? You're not really supposed to read spoilers until the end of the game, regardless of whether the person is eliminated, incase they contain information not known to you..

I was about to ask the exact same question....

Plattfuss
05-04-2010, 22:27
Sorry for that. You guys are right. I didn't realize there could be information in this thread that I shouldn't know it this point (and I think luckily there weren't). Won't happen again.