Spoiler **** Cut More Crap Pitboss **** Spoiler

[akots]

Unless you are Shabbaman or ProPain!!
!! If you play in Cut More Crap Pitboss or plan to sub somebody, stop reading now and leave !!

This is the spoiler thread!



































************

[akots]

I think I'll take the first few turns and may be make some plans for the future. But the more feedback is here, the better our opening will be, so please let's discuss something.

We play Zara who is Creative (free culture expansions, cheap libraries and theaters) and Organized (cheaper civics, cheap courthouses, factories, and lighthouses). Traits are not bad and early libraries are very helpful. In the mid-game Organized trait is very good, saves up to 30% of civic maintenance. Also, because of lower expenses, inflation rate is better so, we can save even more, up to 40% total for up to Modern Era. Courthouses can be built early on and these are really good giving also nice espionage bonus. Lighthouses may be also helpful if there is some watery areas. Factories are nice but not really something important, by that time the game is already decided usually.

We start with Hunting and Mining which is quite good since there would be a scout and we can start on Bronze working right away. We don't need religion to expand borders, and IMO, religion can be completely neglected in the early game.

Our UU is Oromo which is also not bad. it is basic musketman with free Drill I and Drill II promotions who is immune to first strikes. Which makes it a good unit against longbowmen and catapults/trebuchets and even cannons on the right terrain. Once upgraded, it will make a nice core of rather good riflemen army.

Unique building though sucks. It is Stele which is essentially a monument (we don't need monuments for culture expansion) which gives 25% bonus to culture. The bonus would be quite useless unless going for cultural victory and that is quite impossible in multiplayer games.

So, IMO, at the beginning, the standard strategy can be used and this was quite successfuly played out in many games. The main component is REX, which means to settle as much land as possible as early as possible while simultaneously rushing one neighbor and securing peace with the other neighbors. Meanwhile, research required worker techs (BW, AH for chariots, Pottery for granaries not for cottages), and then straight to writing and Code of Law (after doing path to Preisthood and may be Math). Then, immediately going for Alphabet for spies. If the neighbor can be rushed, we get large piece of land, can build more cities, more libraries, more courthouses, and get this all functional. This will give us technological lead for the middle of the game through to Middle Ages and Gunpowder. Then, there would be time to rush another neighbor (preferably some weaker and smaller one) making sure that it is all secure and safe on the other sides. If we still can keep the lead tech-wise, we can try to rush some other player.

I would not go for early wonders, for early Music, or for much of Great People farming and would try to emphasize growth and production as usually.

I would estimate that for comfortable Space victory, at least 30 cities are needed on huge map size. But 20-25 would still allow us to stay competitive through the end of the game.

For Rexing to work, in the early game, we should try to build only workers (about 2 per city depending on the map) and military with occasional barracks. Libraries can be started after writing and Courthouses after CoL. There is no particular need for other city improvements. For early rush, some axemen and chariots are usually enough since the most important thing is to disconnect copper/iron. It would be better to rush a neighbor who is neither protective (powerful archers) nor aggressive (powerful axemen). But rushing aggressive neighbor who is guaranteed to have no metal is also OK. Rushing protective neighbor who has only archers is also OK as long as his production capacity can be crippled.

Of course, for this to work, all forests should be chopped as soon as possible and slavery has to be used heavily. Typically, only bonus tiles are worked, all extra citizens are slaved for workers/settlers and units. The red faces will go away if we are able to connect resources for happiness. IMO, getting to the largest reasonable size is very important.

[akots]

Start is not that brilliant but at least we have ivory. No other nice fancy stuff unfortunately, no gold, silver, furs, and whatever. Here is pic of start and the second pic is after moving all the starting units.

http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=306&stc=1&d=1254880411


http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=307&stc=1&d=1254880411

For now, there are two basic options: Build capital on ivory (gets nice access to flood plains) and second city on rice and cows. Another option is move locations to places with two question marks. The capital will get cow, but loses production bonus on ivory and the second city gets only rice. I also popped 79g from the hut.

Both possibilities leave decent amount of forest to chop in the city borders. It might be also worth thinkin about settling on hill plains after scouting more map in the beginning of next turn but IMO, that would keep the cities too far apart from each other and hard to connect rapidly.

The map is not very filled in with resources unlike the previous game, so some copper or iron should be very close by as well as horses. It is not very rich but it is OK considering that other players also get something similar. It has considerable food after irrigation of flood plains and not bad production after mining hills.

[Shabbaman]

tl;dr (head full of snot), just admiring the pictures: I see a luxury, floodplains, forests and food resources, seems like a better start than any of my SP games.

[akots]

I settled both cities this turn. Capital is on ivory and working ivory until the border expansion and then will work flood plains for growth. Second city is in between rice and cows working banana also for growth. Workers will be rushed upon growth. Research set to BW in 12. We also would urgently need agriculture and Animal Husbandry as well as Wheel. Hopefully, we can get something useful from more huts if there are any around.

http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=309&stc=1&d=1255052450

[akots]

We popped two more huts for some little cash and the third for big tech (Agriculture). This one is very important early in the game in this setup. Need more worker desperately. Since it is only turn 8 or 9, I think we can get 3 more workers after about 10-11 turns. One will be chopped with our current worker (2 forests plus some overflow) and two others will be pop-rushed in both cities. Next research goes to Wheel and AH, may be archery. BW is 6 or 7 turns away.

[Shabbaman]

Seems like a lucky charm you have for those goodie huts.

[akots]

Keep in mind, we know hunting and started with a scout. Also, it is Noble level.

[akots]

Here is current situation:

http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=320&stc=1&d=1256513665

This turn just met Grahamian to the north and Azzaman to the east. Graham is Mehmed and Azza is Justinian. Which means we need to expand faster than Expansionist or Imperialistic neighbors. I guess we have to try. In any case, early wars are out of the question until starting area is firmly settled. The map is not crowded and REXing is priority. Sent pm's to both offering long term peace for 50 turns (to turn 70).

We already have 2 workers, building two more. There is a lot of settlers to build, farms to irrigate, and forests to chop.

[akots]

Both Azza and Grahamiam are OK with peace until about turn 70. We have total of 4 workers as of next turn and Wheel is in 5 turns.

There is copper to the west on the coast and marble a bit more to the southwest. Otherwise, the only happiness resource we have is ivory and this means that Monarchy must be researched rapidly. Probably, it can be targeted as priority after Writing.

[Shabbaman]

That's one big cluster of elephants there in the east.

[akots]

Also, I've finished scouting the hub we are given by our mapmaker. It is strange but we have only two land-connected neighbors, Grahamiam and Azzaman. There is no land bridge to the south or west. So, we would have to get to war with either one of them and make alliance with another. The hub we are given is pretty large but not enough to win the game peacefully. There is room for about 20 cities and IMO, we would need 30 to 40 cities, the more the better. While war seems to be inevitable, we have to be sure that the conquered hub can be maintained and defended. So, I would say that any war prior to turn 120-150 of the game would be very unhealthy for us.

[akots]

Here is complete map of our hub and attempt at dot map which I don't really like. It will create a few powerful cities but there is not much food in others up until biology. Overall, the location is quite rich in hammers and a bit low on food for early growth. There is room for at least 12 and at most 15(16) cities on the hub.

http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=327&stc=1&d=1257569147

Capital will be very good production center but very poor commerce center and there is no great people factory. Some option to farm for GP points will be in northern coastal cities but later through the game. For now, it seems that happiness shortage will delay growth and I'm undecided about cottages. Normally, in a Pitboss game on a huge map, there is no sense in building cottages. Irrigation can reach almost every corner here and of course, elephant plains will be quite useless until Biology.

I'm also undecided about wonders and religions. Again, normally, both of these can be neglected to provide for faster development but here, with marble, there is a chance for Great Library which seems to be very powerful early in the game.

Another priority will be gaining contacts to decrease cost for known techs. There is an open way through Grahamiam's and Azzaman's lands to get hopefully two more contacts but if there are more contacts to be found, remains to be determined. I strongly suspect that barbu cut the map in 4 continents each with 4 hubs connected to each other by severing some land bridges. That would offer an option to conquer the whole continent at a certain stage and it should be enough to be comfortable with space race. On the other hand, neither Grahamiam nor Azzaman are easy conquest and the fourth neighbor remains a mystery. If that is the case, contact would have to wait until Optics or substantial border expansions and probably can be acquired closer to the end of the game.

So, for now, there are too many unknowns here. A settler will be rushed next turn and I expect 3 more settlers ready within the next 20 turns with granaries in both capital and second city. Any suggestions city names are welcome. I'm not very creative with that stuff and would probably name the capital Orenburg.

[akots]

It is 1400BC. I've made peace agreements with Grahamiam and Azza to turn 70 and 100, respectively. This turn was a first major setback. I was rushing to Code of Laws mostly to get a religion and courthouses would be nice as well. However, somebody discovered it this turn and got Confu. Well, cannot blame anybody but my dear self since I spent 1.5 turns to research fishing to get clams connected for a coastal city for more food. The backup plan is to research Meditation (takes 4 turns) and then, after 3 turns (7 turns from now), I would have a Great Scientist in Orenburg who can be used to get Philosophy. This should give me Taoism in 8 turns unless somebody will beat me to that as well. This gamble is a bit more severe since I would waste 4 turns of research completely because without religion, Meditation is completely useless. Well, with 16 players on a map, it would be very hard to get wonders or religions. I could not get any wonders with 10-11 players in previous games. However, wasted wonders give at least some cash while religious techs are somewhat useless in the early game.

I think I'd try to extend peace with Grahamiam and it looks like the only other neighbor is Killer and that's it for our continent. Distances towards Grahamiam and Azza are huge and war would be very inconvenient.

[akots]

I've got a Great Scientist on turn 71 but cannot take Philosophy until I get Math. Also, I completely forgot that in BTS Alphabet has also preference to Philosophy. Math is 7 turns away and Alpha is about same. I'm not sure what to do since to get these techs, I would have to postpone research on Monarchy which was 7 turns away. And somebody already founded Christianity. That is quite bizzare indeed.

Courthouses are mostly finished everywhere and three more settler are being built to expand the empire. I guess Monarchy is not that important for the time being since Alphabet can be used to produce beakers when science rate will drop due to maintenance. Also, cheap libraries enable to hire some scientists early on. This additionally makes worker deficit less malignant. Anyhow, capped with size 5 in all cities, there are very few worthy improvements to be built.

I have not extended peace with Grahamiam yet. He is not in a position to attack and with Azza, peace is secure until turn 100.

[akots]

Surprisingly, the Philosophy slingshot worked and Ethiopian Empire got Taoism founded on turn 86. Now, the path lies to Monarchy (both Grahamiam and Azza are already in Hereditary rule) and then I am still hesitating between Feudalism and Construction with priority given to Currency.

I'm still undecided on wars. It might be possible to wage a rapid war (40 turns or so, quite OK for this size of map) against Grahamiam who is somewhat weaker. But this would need a secure peace with Azza which would only be possible if he will wage a war against Killer. I'm not sure if he is able or willing to do just that. He migh as well barricade himself on his piece of land and wait until Cataphracts which is not that far away.

I would prefer maintainig long peace with Azza because he has a spare luxury to trade. I'm even willing to trade him ivory. Will offer some deals within the next few days otherwise, may be Killer or Grahamiam will take upper hand in negotiations. I should be able to beat Azza later in the game.

Cheap Libraries and Courthouses really help with research rate and maintenance, so I'm almost finished settling the starting area. There is room for 4 or 5 more cities but only one (may be two) is really worth it before Biology because others will be useless without irrigation. There are also some gaps between already settled cities (see dot map above) which can be settled later in the Modern era if I survive that long.

Demographics is OK, I'm 4th in GNP and manufacturing and only bad thing is small cities (capped at size 5 before Monarchy) so population is low. But this will be corrected with Taoism spreading and with Monarchy and hopefully Azza can be persuaded to trade in a luxury.

[Shabbaman]

Grahamiam is offline atm, seems like a sitting duck. By the way, I took a brief leave of absence from this spoiler since I substituted for Killer, but I figured that that was long enough ago to start giving you my priceless advice again ;)

[akots]

Actually, I sent a message to Azza offering peace extension 2 turns ago (on turn 95) so that he can go kill Killer and I can go kill Grahamiam in the near future. The war is estimated to take about 30 turns (plus 20 turns recovery) and I offered Azza to trade him ivory in exchange for silk. He has not replied yet but he has not visited cdz either so I sent a message in game as well. I'm afraid that if he does not reply, I would be forced to wage a war against him and with grahamiam being mostly idle, my hand would be free from his interference. However, Azza seems to be quite in a nice position with rather developed empire of his. This war would take longer, may be up to 50 turns and would be a huge setback now. I have some scientific lead over him but not much. It will be also necessary to build a lot of war elephants and catapults. I estimate roughly something about 60 units of these total within 30 turns. Grahamiam will not require this much, probably half of that will be enough.

[Shabbaman]

Communication seems to be a problem in this game. I heard similar complaints from other players.

[akots]

It is OK, Azza just replied. He will take the 75- turn peace deal. Thus, we are at peace up until turn 175/180 with 5 turn warning. I'm free to reunite grahamiam's empire with her rightful owner which is Great Orenburgia as you might have guessed based on city names already, just need to build some troops. Research will go to construction with immediate start to build cats, then followed by horse back riding for Elephants and then Iron Working for some swordsmen. Meanwhile, will build occasional axemen for reinforcement but mostly all of the cities are building either cash or research. Only newly founded towns are working on granaries, courthouses, and libraries as needed. Even if Grahamiam puts a lot of effort into spearmen and even if he gets a few longbowmen by the time the forces arrive, this would not help. ETA is in 20 turns, plus 10 turns to march there, plus about 30 turns to do the job and 20 turns to recover. This puts me right at the end of the peace deal with Azza. By then, there might be already some cannons and grenadiers moving around so his cataphracts will be useless. I can then decide to make a firm alliance to help either one of us to win the game or to go for total ownership of the whole continent.

[akots]

Turn 110. Things are going pretty well. This turn we met with DanDridge's scout in grahamiam's lands up in the north. DanDridge does not have optics yet, also lacks Philosophy and Alphabet but has Metal Casting and Civil Service, can research Paper and Machinery. He has also total of 8 cities compared to our 10. Considering his pethora of wonders, he is not doing that well tech-wise. That means, there is a galley route to him. Since his cultural borders might be insanely huge, this means that he can get trade routes with our continent while we would not have them. Means need to explore coastal water closely to seek a passage.

Azza agreed to let my galley through in exchange for trading him ivory now. He will have calendar and can trade silks in exchange in about 10 turns. So, he gets 10 turns of ivory for free, no big deal IMO in the long run. At least, he is willing to cooperate and that means a possibility of future alliance.

Military build are going on and some stables are being built to ensure promoted elephants. The army should be ready to march towards Grahamiam in about 10-15 turns and then, a warning of the coming war can be given to him. But he probably already is expecting that. Iron will be hooked up in a couple of turns followed by massive forest chopping and two rounds of pop-rushing. This shoulod give an overwhelming force to eliminate grahamiams troops. Via land route, about 7 turns will be needed to march there plus a detachment of 6 worker although I might start building some roads in advance. At that time, all cities would have to be switched to wealth production in order to maintain research rate at abour 50-60% and provide for army costs. The war should be over in about 20 turns from that, basically around turn 150 as planned. War weariness should be mangeable with silks and markets and may be I will go for Drama to adjust luxury rate with cheap theaters.

Two great people are also expected quite soon. Hopefully, they both will be great scientists. One will be ready in 2 turns and another in about 10 turns in Kargala. This should enable to discover Education quite rapidly and advance research towards gunpowder or guilds depending on circumstances. I'm still undecided about building Academy in the capital and actually switching to Bureaucracy since the capital is not a great science city besides being almost on the verge of health limit. It is an OK city but not really superb.

[akots]

Turn 111. This turn, Beam's workboat sailed in from the south. He is quite backwards and small. But to underestimate his cunning would be a grave mistake, so since he is no rival at the moment, there can be quite a friendly relationship.

[akots]

Turn 115. Elephants are being built and are marching to Kargala to prepare for an attack of grahamiam. A due 5-turn warning had been sent to him and receipt acknowledged.

Civil Service is 2 turns away and citizens of Orsk gave birth to a great spy. Unfortunately, there are no neighbors with techs which can be stolen thus, a possible use for the GSpy can be only one which is to trigger Golden Age. That would give free turn of revolution to Bureaucracy. Other uses might be possible like trying to send him to DanDridge. The question is where to send. I don't think that settling the guy into Azza will be met with understanding and I'm not sure it is really worth to alienate Azza at this time point.

Due to cheap courthouses, all grahamiam's cities are completely visible and even some can be investigated. His army is quite small and he would have trouble assembling a large force at his south-western border in 10 turns when the SOD is expected to arrive. SOD is not that big, planned to be composed at the moment of 6 cats, 6 axemen, 4 elephants, and 4-5 swords. That might be actually enough to do the job in his western province (2 cities). More reinforcements will be built and will march to ensure swift war.

It might be possible, that either Killer or DanDridge will be sending some troops to help but they might not get there in time.

I have not yet done massive pop-rush of the troops and it is quite undertain as to whether it should be done before Golden Age or after. Usually, it might be better to pop-rush after GA or to wait with triggering GA. Also, GA can be delayed a bit and Great Spy used as an actual spy, although I can see enough of his cities to wage war comfortably.

Logistics will surely be a huge problem and at least 6 workers are needed to ensure swift passage through the desert. If I start prebuilding roads there, there is a chance that grahamiam will attack the workers or pillage the prebuilt road without actually declaring war himself. Moving SOD too early would cost a few so much needed coins and will reveal to him SOD composition so he can build counter-defense. I'm kind of undecided about this. It is probably worth to wait a couple of turns to see how serious grahamiam is about building troops and to decide what reinforcements specifically are needed. I'm mostly counting on cats and swordsmen and may be some horse archers for mobility to deliver at least some reinforcements faster.

[akots]

Shabba, can you please play, I'm timing out. Just declare war and advance the troops.

[akots]

Turn 122. War against grahamiam declared, troops marching in, education ready in 6 turns.

[Shabbaman]

Shabba, can you please play, I'm timing out. Just declare war and advance the troops.

I missed this because I was flooded with work at the time :( If you want me to play, please PM me. Can't fail to notice that.

Also, can you post an update?

[akots]

I'll try to update with general overview. There is a lot of diplo going on at the moment and the situation is still undecided.