CDZ Rule the World Part Deux

[killercane]

I have the Mongols. BCLG poached horses immediately from me, I declared war but against 2 warriors no chance so we have peace til 500 AD. So it will be wonder, worker, settler, and army building for a long time. We have agreed on a pretty fair division of land.



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[killercane]

Great Wall and Oracle are in Beshbalik! Since there is so much competition for wonders (several civs starting with stone or marble), I built them both quickly and only took Code of Laws with the Oracle.

I also got a message from Simon this turn, about putting all my EPs against him. He thinks we agreed to no spies, when I think I said no poisoning and unhappiness, but no spies is fine with me and I dont want unhappy neighbors. I have a really short jaunt to his city of Em, but Dandridge or Graham could be a good target for my great spy(s). If I get a prophet I can just build a shrine which works too.

[killercane]

Any comments? Mauer? Im thinking to put espionage vs. Dandridge and toying with the idea of religious concentration. Something like building the Apostolic palace for the +2 hammers per temple/monastery. If I pair that with Sankore and Minaret, that is +4 hammers, +4 beakers, and +4 pure gold per turn. The ROI on that is 2350 hammers/10 assumed cities/6 (assuming gold/science/hammers on a 1:1 conversion ratio)= 39 turns. Of course you have to factor in the cost for researching Divine Right but balancing that is the multiplication of all 3 h, b, and c by buildings and civics. So for the capital in Bureau w/ forge and police state and heroic epic those hammers would be worth almost 20 hammers per turn. So 27 hammer capital which I have +4 is 31 (throw in an extra hammer from a workshop or something to make math easy) is 32 + 16 bureau (48) +forge (60) + 24 +48 is 120 hammers per turn pretty early for middle age warring. One turn knights!

[digger760]

crickey!!! i'm lost with all the espionage stuff, i nver got BTS :(

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by killercane

Something like building the Apostolic palace for the +2 hammers per temple/monastery. If I pair that with Sankore and Minaret, that is +4 hammers, +4 beakers, and +4 pure gold per turn.


Sankore is good, but then you'd have too beeline for paper instead of knights. You'd need to be the first to get to theology, paper and whatever gives you minaret, all three of which are in different parts of the tech tree. Good luck with that!

Although if you can manage either of them (well, I don't like the minaret that much) you've made a good deal anyway. I always try to build Sankore, it's halfway to a free tech as well ;)

[killercane]

All good points. I dont think I have ever built Sankore. It just never seems like one has temples/monasteries everywhere. But this will be a bit of a builders game after the wars pan out. And the Mongols plan on keeping a low profile til then!

One thing is that Simon is sure to beeline Machinery for his Choks. He loves Xbows + they are his UU and he has already researched IW. So 500 AD I had better expect battle with him. This impresses on me the need for the knight push, Guilds push like you mentioned.

[mauer]

Looks like you're doing fine to me KC. Sankore is good, and paired with the Apostolistic Palace would be even better. You don't have a religion though right? I'm really not the guy to ask about wonders though....I figure if everyone else is building wonders I'll go ahead and load up on beat down units and try to take the wonders from them.

I'm a little slow, but what does the tech pace look like now? I'm guessing it's too late to start cranking catapults and elephants to beat down someone? Keep me updated on the espionage vs Dan thingy (I'm assuming you're gonna steal techs?) cause I'm getting ready to try it on him in another pitboss. I've not seen it done or even attempted yet.

[killercane]

quote:Originally posted by mauer

Looks like you're doing fine to me KC. Sankore is good, and paired with the Apostolistic Palace would be even better. You don't have a religion though right? I'm really not the guy to ask about wonders though....I figure if everyone else is building wonders I'll go ahead and load up on beat down units and try to take the wonders from them.

I'm a little slow, but what does the tech pace look like now? I'm guessing it's too late to start cranking catapults and elephants to beat down someone? Keep me updated on the espionage vs Dan thingy (I'm assuming you're gonna steal techs?) cause I'm getting ready to try it on him in another pitboss. I've not seen it done or even attempted yet.

Ah just giving you a nudge since hadnt heard from you. Tech pace is pretty slow on the huge map. Dandridge looks to be dying from a Darkness/Akots rush. Robi thinks he is Public Enemy #1(Rome) but I think Darkness would have it in for me based on the Civivor 2 game.

Part of tech stealing is how far spies have to travel. This is why not stealing from Simon is shitty, everyone else is far.

Spies will also be needed to make sentries in neutral lands. I should be able to see any surprise attack coming and they are invisible/cant be killed by barbs.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by killercane

It just never seems like one has temples/monasteries everywhere.


In those sparse games I've actually finished, monasteries and harbors seem like the most underapprectiated buildings. +10% science and +50% from trade routes (up to 10 gpt!) are in my very humble opinion about the best benefit you can get from a building, especially for that small investment. If you lack a religion however, you'll start building monasteries late, and then you've probably got something better to build. Beelining for theology then? You do have marmer next to your capital, or is that iron?

[mauer]

Funny, I just logged into that game and Dan had sent me an ingame message basically throwing a fit cause I was directing Espionage points at him. Wonder if he'll give you a hard time about it.

[killercane]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

quote:Originally posted by killercane

It just never seems like one has temples/monasteries everywhere.


In those sparse games I've actually finished, monasteries and harbors seem like the most underapprectiated buildings. +10% science and +50% from trade routes (up to 10 gpt!) are in my very humble opinion about the best benefit you can get from a building, especially for that small investment. If you lack a religion however, you'll start building monasteries late, and then you've probably got something better to build. Beelining for theology then? You do have marmer next to your capital, or is that iron?

In terms of bang for the buck, libraries>monasteries>universities. You can build 3 monasteries with surplus instead of a uni.

Marble is there by the cap, and later iron.

I dont think I will beeline to Theology, I think it will be a low priority for the others. Just settlers, workers, and military and head towards a safe footing with all these warmongers out there. Probably will try to attain a stone in the Ural Mountains to build Pyramids but this spot is hard to protect.

[killercane]

quote:Originally posted by mauer

Funny, I just logged into that game and Dan had sent me an ingame message basically throwing a fit cause I was directing Espionage points at him. Wonder if he'll give you a hard time about it.

I think he will be dead long before he notices! So I guess Darkness is the espionage target.

[killercane]

Khmer and India have attacked China. Since China is my meatshield and I dont want those warmongers on my doorstep I have offered to help.

[killercane]

Some discussions with India over the settlement of the stone site west (Orenburg). Probably need to get some pictures up to illustrate when I go in.


Well this is surprising. Mongolia does desire the stone and dyes there at Orenburg. The reason a settler is there is due to our peaceful relations and treaty I thought we agreed to.

Your border drawn there seems to give me desert and plains, and you horses, stone, dyes, flood plains, an oasis, and sheep. I dont think that will work, but we'll ask the Khan to be sure.

The actual land of Orenburg can be yours, in fact I could trade you the city for some consideration. It is only the resources. There are numerous options here, I think we just have to be creative. West is the only place I can expand, so we can work something out.


Khan Akots:
Yes, it is quite a bargain we must strike. I'm fully open to all options including gifting you stone and dyes on permanent basis. Actually, with dyes I have a few sources of my own and stone is not that much needed, may be for a few wonders for a short time.

Regarding sheep, you are supposed to have those somewhere else? I'm not sure though, need to check the builder save. We can try to arrange something here since the only city I'm planning to build in the near future is Tashkent.

Actually, getting the Orenburg location is the only real reason for me to go into war with Russia. Now, you are willing to get this place as well. Well, it is quite far from both of us in any case. And location is quite hostile there with all these plains, so city will be barely usable until Biology. And even though the level ins Noble, maintenance costs can be quite high for either one of us.

The few options as I can see it:

1. You build the city, gift it to me later on and in exchange you get 2 fast workers as permanent gift and dyes and ivory on permanent basis for the duration of our peace deal (1000AD currently) with stone being at your disposal and I can borrow it occasionally when needed for a short period of time when you don't need it. You'd be free to get the sheep south of Aral sea as well if you wish to settle there.

2. You retreat the settler outside of the red border and leave the location free for me to settle later on. This might be not the most nice option for you since for me, it will take quite a while to settle there and improve the land. I anticipate the time required as at least 20 turns from now may be even longer depending on how war with Russia goes. The price I'm willing to pay is one fast worker, dyes and ivory until 1000AD, stone same as above as soon as I can improve it and access to sheep as well.

3. We can leave it as it is but as I said, we have a chance of the treaty ending up at 200AD.

Make a counter offer and we can start working towards a deal.

[killercane]

So... a bit of an update. We are calmly building troops and aiming towards taking the Pyramids off Graham's hands in Memphis. A quick strike can disable his copper if I decide on that route or just a quick strike from the east works too. Since he and Akots are on good terms (india) and I have to move through India to get there, I figure I will have to double move through India before Akots has a chance to warn Graham.

India and Khmer (Beam) are at war with China (BCLG). China has a rather large stack and seems to be grinding through Beam without much difficulty. Simon has pledged to lend me some troops for the Egypt affair. I think if I can broker peace with Akots and Simon to give Simon nothing to worry about, I can take his units for a while and tear through Egypt and maybe not stop until I hit coast through Mali.

Mali (IanDC, scoreleader) has the Great Library and ToA and some nice lands that seem to be underdefended.

Darkness (Vikigns) has agreed to peace til 1500 AD and the Romans (Robi) have agreed to a similar deal. Dandridge (Russia) has been eliminated, so that only leaves India as the x factor (peace til 1000 ad) and to a smaller extent Ynnek's Zulu nation.

Karakorum does 50 hpt and I seem to be going back and forth from 1-2 in gnp. Most all of my other cities suck as far as hammers however, most with around 10 base hammers at the most. That is why the productive Egyptian capital must be the goal.

Techwise I am bureaucratic (only one so far) with an academy thanks to a gifted scientist from Simon in exchange for great spy. Metal casting takes 4 turns, Construction 3, and Machinery should be 5-6. I plan to roll onto Guilds right after that. So about 30 turns until Knights. Maybe I can get through Graham, upgrade all to knights, and roll through Africa? Maintenance actually wont be too bad with the rich starting locations, courts, and markets everywhere +huge map size.

[killercane]

A big update since diplomacy is getting pretty hot. Basically the Khan has been building troops since 1400 BC, it is now 225 AD, and the Mongolian March to the Sea is about to begin, going through Egypt and Mali. A lot of work has gone into this plan, including calculating maintenance costs of Egyptian and Mali cities and whether they will break the empire. India and China are still at war, which complicates matters. Beam is down to one city, and we are ostensibly still at war.



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[killercane]

So first topic I suppose is the China-India war. This began as a result of China attacking Beam. India joined to defend Beam. China asked that I join vs. Beam to prevent India gifting units as I could not gift units to China any longer. Pretty reasonable on all sides. The problem arises over the taking of the Rocker, a strategically located neutral city between New China and Indian territory in the 3rd screenshot, used by China at least to scout India. China is supposed to be gifted the city but not with the stack of Indian troops waiting there to attack. So I have had to hold on to it with it eating up maintenance and not really producing much. Simon hasnt eliminated Beams last island city yet, and Akots says there can be no peace unless China gives up all its gains in Khmer lands, to which of course Simon refuses. I have tried to broker peace to garner peaceful trade with both parties but to no avail. India would not let me march any troops through their territory towards Beam to hasten his elimination. So relations with India have been lukewarm, and with China have moved to lukewarm over this Rocker deal (China asked me to keep the city and not raze it).

Now comes India proposing an end game space race deal, which China has not proffered. Since plans are to gain considerable territories in Asia, Asia Minor and Africa, a dogpile against the Khan is quite likely. An alliance with strategically located India will help defend lands from Roman (peace til 1250 or thereabouts) or Viking (peace til 1500)aggression. Also with the deal are gains in Chinese territories and their rich resources, including health which will be necessary. So there will be war under the proposed alliance at 1000 AD vs. China.

HOWEVER, I gave India a heads up that I would be moving some troops through their territory, destination unknown. India took a similar stance to the Beam situation, in that they did not want Mongolian troops in their territory. Since the alternative is marching 10 turns all the way around India (thanks to my gifting of Orenburg TO India) rather than spending 2 turns in Indian territory taking the most direct route to Egypt, I gave Akots an ultimatum: either the 40+ troops will be allowed to move through or there will be war between India and Mongolia. The Khan is angry! And considering his power is twice that of the next top rival, can back up his threats.

So now, I receive a pm from Graham, obviously tipped off by India:
How about a peace deal until 1250 AD (just a suggestion, if you prefer another date, then let me know). I would also be interested in combining it with a deal were we agree not to assist opposing civ's if we are at war with someone (ie, no gifting of units, cities, or gold)? That way, we can each focus on our section of the world without worrying about an outside influence strengthening an enemy. However, if you just want straight-up peace, I can accept that

Does this sound like something you are interested in?

Let me know,
grahamiam.
Normally a good deal but the wheels have been set in motion. Memphis has the Pyramids and Statue of Zeus (an underrated wonder) and it is very close to my border, and Egyptian power is 1/3 of Mongolia's. Rome is also about to invade Egypt per Simon, so I kind of have to make a move now as we cant have the Pyramids in Roman hands. Hopefully IanDC of Mali will get in on the action and I can crush his army in the field rather than behind city walls and march straight on to the Atlantic. Attacking Egypt last game turned into a debacle, lets hope this one is a bit better.

So the India deal is up in the air, the attack on Egypt is up in the air, and who is allied with who will continue to thicken. Pretty intriguing stuff. If India closes borders I will burn every last Indian city in a spiteful rage!!!!

[Rik Meleet]

Do you smell a burn when you play cIV?
Seems your videocard / videochip is fried.

[killercane]

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

Do you smell a burn when you play cIV?
Seems your videocard / videochip is fried.

You mean the second picture of the world view? I dunno. I think I have an older Radeon installed on my work computer, hence the ugliness. Its not too bad though?

[Rik Meleet]

It struck me first when I saw the text in all your pictures (including the November 2007 one) is badly distorted. And it must be the videopart and not the computer you process the screenshots on since other elements (like roads and cultural borders) are ok.
Well, if it's always been like that then I suppose it's just fine. It's your videocard stretching to do it's best (and that is not a bad thing).

[Beorn]

I always thought it was a graphic mod you installed, and thought it was awful, and never asked where you got it [:p]

[killercane]

Well ASIDE from all that, what do you think of the march to the sea plan? I need advisors here, not graphics critics!

Memphis has fallen with acceptable losses, though I did lose a crossbow at 97% odds :(. 2 great Mongolian generals (and one egyptian) born in the same turn there, Graham put up just about all he could muster and it was quite a bloodbath. Three units await in the next city, but my keshik will lose his life giving me that information as he will lose his life to a spear.

I adopted Representation and Caste System this turn, and got the Classical Literature quest, making that Great Library in Mali even more tempting. One of the jewels of Memphis is the Masjid Harem or whatever, evidently it is worth an astounding 32 gold per turn. Lots of Muslims in the world evidently.

Oh and Beam has been eliminated. The mapmaker/host ended up with one of the roughest spots :(.

[killercane]

Not much progress with the hosting problems, but a small update. Graham's capital fell, and IanDC decided to jump the gun and attack me rather than the other way around. So we are just sitting staring at each other atm. I am hoping he tries to make a road there at Graham's next to last town so I can capture his workers.

In the east, I gave Simon a 15 turn warning so we are proceeding to war at 1000 AD to help akots. I have to keep units in the west so the Simon war will have to be fought with a whole new army which Im currently working on. Hopefully split forces doesnt bite me in the ass; I do have a lot of troops however, and Memphis will soon have the Heroic Epic to produce a unit per turn to help out vs. IanDC.

I expect Ian to go to Curassiers, and I shouldnt be too far behind if he does. Simon probably has a boatload of units, but at least he will be getting pounded on two fronts.

[Shabbaman]

First of all, congratulations with your new kid. Second, I took over Mongolia. Mongolia is at war with China, though I haven't seen any troops yet. Egypt is offering peace. I don't really get what you were aiming for, but that could be the AI. You know, building settlers in the middle of a war and all...

[Shabbaman]

So, while you were busy with diapers, your Egyptian cities got lost and the AI revolted to some incomprehensible set of civics. I revolted back and set everything to military production and beelining to grenadiers. If anything, it's better to go down in flames!

[killercane]

Well Matrix was supposed to attack Ian's coastal cities and raze them while Memphis built pikes and such to stop an attack there. A spy was there in the chokepoint city keeping tabs on units coming to attack Memphis. I was going to draft muskets to go after BCLG while holding Memphis and waiting for Matrix, Robi, and Ynnek to attack Ian and leverage Akots and myself against Simon. Really just need a breakthrough on one front to consolidate everything.

Lost a lot of units against those damn chokonus of Simons, trebs and such did little to no damage really, and one chokonu killed 5 units at 30-60% odds and it has been a boondoggle ever since keeping equal numbers of troops on both fronts.

What is the current state of affairs on both fronts? Any screenshots? There is/was peace with Darkness and Robi for a while so no real dogpile threat unless the impasse remains forever. I trust you will lead the bloodthirsty mongols to victory however!

[Shabbaman]

I can give you a screenshot of Chinese troops ravaging your capital, but it's not a pretty sight.

[Shabbaman]

Good news: last night I liberated Karakorum. Not much left of it, unfortunately.

[killercane]

Well hell fire, if Akots kills Simon you are supposed to get half his lands. With Darkness under attack, there is still a chance to get built back up!

If IanDC rebuilds, and the others turn on him then, that might be the opportunity if you can then be back in control.

[Shabbaman]

I got all the lands that I lost to China back. Now I'm going to push, see if I can conquer some decent land in the process.