Sumpin's Fishy

[Tubby Rower]

Between Darkness's's's's purty fish and my daughter and son oogling at the fish tanks at my mom's house (20 gal goldfish) and at church (~80 gal saltwater), I have been wanting to get another tank. I had a 10 gal tank when I was a wee lad of 14, but then my mom took over and got a bigger tank. We've had the "easy" tropical fish like guppies and mollies and neon tetras. and then Mom got into the fancy goldfish with crazy tails, big bulging eyes and growths that look like they have a brain poking out of their skull.

So I've been wanting to get one, but our current house is space limited and there was no good place for one. Now that we have found a bigger house and will move at the beginning of next month, I started researching what I needed to do. So I emailed Darkness and sent on my pathetic attempt to play a PBEM and asked him if he could give me a primer of what I needed to do. He sent me back a 2 page response with some links for further readings.... I've read a lot and have decided to start a Lake Malawi tank. Right now I am only slightly overwhelmed.

My plan is to chronicle my tank start up and get pointers as I go instead of after all of my fish are dead. I'll be posting pictures as I go. I don't have a picture right now of the new tank location but I'll see if I can scrounge one up when I get home.


My plan:
55 gal (~ 200 liter) tank ~$175
stand for said tank ~$150
hood/lights for said tank $???
black sand on the bottom $20 / 20 lbs of black Tahitian Moon sand <- not sure how many bags I'll need
rocks for decoration (I'm attempting to get Texas Holey Rock (http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/TxHoleyRockunder10.html)) ~$40 x 3
filter $???
fish $???

So as you can see I'm not sure how much all of this is going to cost as I'm not completely sure how much black sand will cost, which type of filter I'll be getting, what type of cichlids I'll be getting. I'm expecting the initial investment to be around $750.

[Robboo]

Good luck....

As a degreed "fish guy" I usually just throw fish in a tank. I have a South American cyclid tank (55 gal long) and I have a 55 gal tall which I use for fish that I catch with my job and culls from the other tank. I have some of rocks similar to the Texas holey rock, I picked out of one of my grad school research sites.

One bit of advice in relation to your kids....put the food out of their reach. Otherwise they will feed the fish quite frequently or use the entire bottle.

[Tubby Rower]

Yeah I read about the cichlids always appearing hungry and if you feed them they will continue to eat like a red-neck at a Golden Coral buffet until they die. You wouldn't by chance have any spare THR that you don't need do ya... buddy? [mischief]

[Tubby Rower]

btw this is the appearance that I'm going for without the plants
http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/sitebuilder/images/ac3-450x278.jpg

[Robboo]

Nope nothing to spare. Its all in the tank. That site is now eroded away due to Hurricane Rita so I cant even get back out to it.

Nice idea with the rock.

[mauer]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Yeah I read about the cichlids always appearing hungry and if you feed them they will continue to eat like a red-neck at a Golden Coral buffet until they die. You wouldn't by chance have any spare THR that you don't need do ya... buddy? [mischief]

Other than the fact that I'm a red-neck who often eats at Golden Coral, I take offense at your comment [slap] I am in fact, not dead. So there [neener]

Rob might know where in these parts that I might be able to find that rock. He's one of them edumukatud dopes.

[Robboo]

I have no clue about the rock there...my stuff isnt really THR. Its just rocks with holes. My stuff was coastal...sandstone. That THR looks to be limestone from stream beds??? hence the holes from following water.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Between Darkness's's's's purty fish and my daughter and son oogling at the fish tanks at my mom's house (20 gal goldfish) and at church (~80 gal saltwater), I have been wanting to get another tank. I had a 10 gal tank when I was a wee lad of 14, but then my mom took over and got a bigger tank. We've had the "easy" tropical fish like guppies and mollies and neon tetras. and then Mom got into the fancy goldfish with crazy tails, big bulging eyes and growths that look like they have a brain poking out of their skull.

So I've been wanting to get one, but our current house is space limited and there was no good place for one. Now that we have found a bigger house and will move at the beginning of next month, I started researching what I needed to do. So I emailed Darkness and sent on my pathetic attempt to play a PBEM and asked him if he could give me a primer of what I needed to do. He sent me back a 2 page response with some links for further readings.... I've read a lot and have decided to start a Lake Malawi tank. Right now I am only slightly overwhelmed.

My plan is to chronicle my tank start up and get pointers as I go instead of after all of my fish are dead. I'll be posting pictures as I go. I don't have a picture right now of the new tank location but I'll see if I can scrounge one up when I get home.


My plan:
55 gal (~ 200 liter) tank ~$175
stand for said tank ~$150
hood/lights for said tank $???
black sand on the bottom $20 / 20 lbs of black Tahitian Moon sand <- not sure how many bags I'll need
rocks for decoration (I'm attempting to get Texas Holey Rock (http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/TxHoleyRockunder10.html)) ~$40 x 3
filter $???
fish $???

So as you can see I'm not sure how much all of this is going to cost as I'm not completely sure how much black sand will cost, which type of filter I'll be getting, what type of cichlids I'll be getting. I'm expecting the initial investment to be around $750.


Lake Malawi... Nice choice. :)

Regarding the tank/stand: Here in the Netherlands they sell Juwel aquariums. These consist of a tank and a stand (and a hood with lighting in it) in one buy, which is often a bit cheaper then buying both seperate. Now I don't know if this brand is also sold in the US, but there should be something comparable in your part of the world... This brand sells 60 gallon tanks for about 200 euro's, stand included. Maybe you can find something comparable?

Regarding the Tahitan Moon sand: I see you're falling into the same trap that I once fell in... ;) First, Tahitan moon sand is NOT real sand. It's crushed quartz. Which has very shart edges, which will damage your fish if they like to dig. And trust me, almost all Malawi Cichlids dig... Second, a dark sand bottom means your fish will colour very dark, which will not show their best colours. White sand is exactly the opposite, which means the fish will be very bland. You've got to pick something in between...
Regarding the rock: Texas holey rock has a good side and a bad side. Good side: It has lots of big holes (hiding places for the fish, to escape the sight of the dominant male for a bit). Bad side: It has lots of small holes, which will accumulate dirt and will give your tank a dirty outlook.

Some small pointers regarding Lake Malawi cichlids:
- Try to get this book: "Guide to Malawi Cichlids" - by Ad Konings. This book basically contains all you need to know about Lake Malawi cichlids.
- Stick to Mbuna cichlids (Haplochromines will grow very large and Aulonocara's are weak fish)
- Feed green food (plant-based) mostly. I use an American Brand, OSI spirulina. Very good food.
- Like Robboo said, it's very easy to overfeed, so be moderate with the feeding can (skipping food for one day a week is a good way to prevent you from spoiling them rotten).

[Furiey]

Ditto Darkness

Don't go for the black "sand" The sand on the bottom of Lake Malawi is much lighter (I've swam with the fish there) and shows up the fish better. And boy will they dig. Many species dig nests in the sandy bottom. Cichlids are very good at appearing constantly hungry and will scrounge food from you unmercifully!

I can see this is another tank I'm going to drool over....

[Tubby Rower]

So what color sand, grey? I'm sure gravel is a [nono] is that correct? I stopped by the local fish store (not PetSmart - national big box pet store) and they had a set up with an undergravel filter (that I won't use), heater, 2 hoods, pump, gravel, net I think even food all included with the tank for ~ $250. The stand was separate and mildly expensive. I asked how much just the tank was and he said $115 (might have mis-heard and it's really $150) which is a good price from what I've seen even @ 150. It's an All Glass brand.

They had a cichlid tank set up with big boulders but it was more cube shaped than rectangle. They had a corner overflow filtration on it. I don't remember much as far as floor material goes. It looked nice.

I'll check my local library for the book. no need in buying the book if I can get it for free.

[Darkness]

Gravel is indeed a big [nono]
see this for the sand:
http://www.cichlidforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=128179&sid=560f06ff4330370485fef65f2c2ea0f6
It contains photo's from a Dutch guy that went diving in Lake Malawi in november. One of the pictures is a close-up of the sand in the lake. Maybe you can aim for something close to that colour?

[Tubby Rower]

I went ahead and order a few of the smaller THR from bambi's website. I had in my original budget to get 3 for $40 each. and I got 3 for ~ $60. :D

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007315183728_Image2.jpg
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http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/txholeyrock235.html
http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/txholeyrock237.html
http://www.bambis-texasholeyrocks.com/txholeyrock243.html

[Furiey]

Those pics bring back a lot of memories. The were lots of large fish nests on the bottom like this one

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/triggerfish/Cichliden/Malawi%202006/Malawi_2006-11-05_16.jpg]

in the sandy area where we were staying.

[Tubby Rower]

Ok I went to the local fish store and I got the species names and prices for the different mbuna. I've listed them here in Alphabetical order by genus then species


Iidotropheas
- Sprengerae $5.99 (Rusty Cichlid)

Melanchromis
- Chipokae $6.18 (Malawi Pike Cichlid)
- Cyaneorhabdos $7.06 (Maingano)
- Johanni $4.17

Neolamprolongus
- Brichardi $8.92
- Pulcher didn't see a price but they had the species

Pseudotropheas
- Acei $5.19 (Yellow tail Acei)
- Elongatus $5.45
- Lombardoi $4.82
- Zebra $4.78-$7.08 depending on color

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Ok I went to the local fish store and I got the species names and prices for the different mbuna. I've listed them here in Alphabetical order by genus then species


Iidotropheas
- Sprengerae $5.99 (Rusty Cichlid)

Melanchromis
- Chipokae $6.18 (Malawi Pike Cichlid)
- Cyaneorhabdos $7.06 (Maingano)
- Johanni $4.17

Neolamprolongus
- Brichardi $8.92
- Pulcher didn't see a price but they had the species

Pseudotropheas
- Acei $5.19 (Yellow tail Acei)
- Elongatus $5.45
- Lombardoi $4.82
- Zebra $4.78-$7.08 depending on color



OK... First off: Neolamprologus is not a lake Malawi fish genus. They are from lake Tanganyika.

Iodotropheus sprengerae are easy fish. Excellent cichlids for beginners. Fairly low aggression and they don't get too big

Melanochromis Chipokae, M. Cyaneorhabdos and M. Johanni are all good fish for a 55 gallon. One thing though: Only one Melanochromis species per tank (because they all hybridize like mad) and keep only one male and several females.
I've got Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos myself. Very pretty fish, but the male can be nasty sometimes.

Pseudotropheus Acei is also a good beginner fish. They are also fairly calm, and you could even keep more than one male in the tank.

Pseudotropheus Elongatus is a collection name. There are about 10 species with that name (followed by a type localization). All are fairly aggressive, so I personally would not recommend them.

Pseudotropheus Lombardoi is actually the old name for this fish. The correct name is currently Metriaclima lombardoi. Very pretty fish. Males are yellow and femalles are blue (with darker blue bars). Not too agressive, but they get a bit bigger than most Mbuna, though a 55 gallon is a good size for them.

Pseudotropheus Zebra is also the old name for this fish. it is now Metriaclima Zebra. Also gets a bit bigger than most. Males are quite pretty, with a striking bar pattern. Females are fairly drab though.



Did the shop have any Labidochromis species? Labidochromis is the least aggressive genus in Lake Malawi, and they combine very well with other fish

For a 55 gallon I'd recommend sticking to 3 or 4 species. 1 male and 2 or 3 females per species.

From the fish you've listed I'd take (purely based on aggressionlevels, as these below are the least aggressive in the list you posted):
- Iodotropheus sprengerae (1m/2f)
- Melanochromis johanni (1m/3f) (males are black and blue, females - are yellow and black, both with horizontal bars)
- Pseudotropheus acei (1m/3f)


And if you can find them you could try a pair of Labidochromis caeruleus "Yellow". That one is hands down the most docile cichlid in Lake Malawi and males don't even need more than one female to keep them busy.

[Tubby Rower]

they did say that I if I could find the web address for Blue Ridge MArina that I could get them to order anything that they have in their next scheduled order. But unfortunately I couldn't find the web address. So I might email the shop and ask them for a phone number of the supplier or a valid web address. I suspect that they could get most anything.

One bad thing is that they didn't have the species seperated by location. So I had to use my quick goat thinking to figure out which were haps and which were mbuna. They also had some peacocks there and I knew to stay away from them. I took a picture of the adult tank they had set up and would post that picture, but my wife has the camera in her purse. So I'll get that up later. I also looked at the website again from home with the sand coloration. Apparently the pics that you meant for me to see were blocked by IT @ work...That sand looks like playground sand almost. Some of those pictures looked like fine gravel. Also I need to get some idea of what type of filter you guys think that I should be using. Darkness suggested EHIEM (or something like that) but is that a canister type or a corner over-flow... I think that I'm getting confused in the filter issue. :(

[Tubby Rower]

here is the store tank that I was speaking of... the Acei (light blue with yellow tail) is the king of this tank and is colored very nicely

http://cventers.home.comcast.net/store_tank.jpg

btw, I'm chronicalling the journey that I'm on via comcast's free web space that I have. Well it's not free but it's included with my internet. Something Adelphia didn't give away. the site is http://cventers.home.comcast.net/ I haven't updated it yet with any pictures yet...

[ProPain]

Didn't know there were so many fish fanatics on CDZ!!

Owned a tiny little aquarium in my early teens, wouldnt know what kind of 'guppies' were in there only that they bred like rabbits. Quit this hobby when we moved during a hot summer and I forgot to take the half empty tank out of the back of my mom's hatchback. Remembered the tank was still in the car after 1 day. Cooked them all...

[Tubby Rower]

I've been reading up on Darkness's suggestions and it appears as though some of the species are hard to sex as juveniles and sometimes hard to sex as adults. So Should I just get 1 extra juvenile and return any excess females or males that I might get? What happens if some die? will I be able to add some new fish without starting Fish Wars II?

btw, my rocks are due on Wednesday. Sherry mentioned some other things that we'll need for the house like a fridge, dining room table, new sofa, & window treatments. So I might have to delay this a bit. I'm trying to work it out so I could buy some things now, so it's not as big of a purchase all at once... but I think that she's getting wise to that.

[Furiey]

You'll need to set the tank up and leave it to balance for a week or two before you add any fish, so you should be able to get tank into one month's bills and fish into the next month. I can see the need for a fridge, after all the beer still needs to be kept cold, but can't you use packing crates for the rest?

Darkness can give you a better idea on the Malawi chiclids, but I find mine don't often take well to another mate if the first dies, particularly if they have been together a while. I often find I lose the second fish in a pair quite quickly if I lose the first.

[Darkness]

Regarding the filters: Canister filters are better IMHO. They have more capacity and are easier to clean in my experience.
Petsmart sells the Eheim Ecco series (with filtermedium included) for decent prices. 90 dollars for the Ecco 2234...

http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444180 8259&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030111&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1174377409671&itemNo=7&Nao=0&In=ALL&N=2030111&Ne=2

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I've been reading up on Darkness's suggestions and it appears as though some of the species are hard to sex as juveniles and sometimes hard to sex as adults. So Should I just get 1 extra juvenile and return any excess females or males that I might get? What happens if some die? will I be able to add some new fish without starting Fish Wars II?

btw, my rocks are due on Wednesday. Sherry mentioned some other things that we'll need for the house like a fridge, dining room table, new sofa, & window treatments. So I might have to delay this a bit. I'm trying to work it out so I could buy some things now, so it's not as big of a purchase all at once... but I think that she's getting wise to that.


Sexing cichlids as juviniles is very difficult. It is possible to see by behaviour and bodyshape (males are more active and boisterous and often have "heavier" bodies). The only sure way to sex cichlids is looking at the genital papilla (venting). This is not easy and gets excessively more difficult if the fish are smaller. Buying more juviniles and returning the excess males to the shop is the way to go when purchasing juviniles.

Excess females is not a problem. All Mbuna''s are polygamous, so males appreciate having a lot of females around. Most of the time females like it that way too (fights among females can happen but it's rare).
Pairing after partners die is not a big issue with Malawi cichlids. Because they are polygamous they don't form a single bond with another fish and these bonds are relatively easily replaces (exceptions can happen of course).

Very important: When adding new fish to an established tank you need to do two things:
1. Re-arrange the rocks and plants (re-arranging the fish's territoria).
2. Switch off the lights and only turn them back on the following day.

[Tubby Rower]

Thanks for the filter recommendation. my head was swimming (pardon the pun) with all of the choices. I did notice that the 2236 was only $10 more and went up to 185 gph vs the 145 gph the 2234 pushed through. Would it be worth the extra money to get a bigger filter?

Sherry went furiture shopping yesterday and I'm thinking that I might start up a furniture company if those prices are normal. $600 just for a chair!!![scared2] Luckily she's a cheapskate and she won't pay full price for anything. Which helps me in my campaign for a tank :D

[Tubby Rower]

ok I have more prices directly from the local fish store.

red indicates not bought & green = bought already:
55 gal (~ 200 liter) tank ~$125 stand for said tank ~$157 matching canopy for said stand (optional) ~$91 hood/lights for said tank $82 greyish sand on the bottom $??? still haven't found sand I'm happy with if I can't use Tahitian moon sand rocks for decoration ~$90 for 4 filter $85-95 fish $70-80 based off of Darkness's suggestions and the prices that I can get themso ~ $650 left to purchase. a tank is much more visually appealing than a chair. I think that I could win this arrangement if I wasn't a male. How do the girls always make better arguments? I need to take a class on negotiation tactics

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Thanks for the filter recommendation. my head was swimming (pardon the pun) with all of the choices. I did notice that the 2236 was only $10 more and went up to 185 gph vs the 145 gph the 2234 pushed through. Would it be worth the extra money to get a bigger filter?



10 dollars more for 40 gph more? Absolutely worth it!
More filtration means cleaner water and happier fish.

[Robboo]

Dont for get to throw in how much pain your in from your "operation"...or did you blow all that on Wii

[Furiey]

Definitely go for the bigger filter. I have used Eheim filters on all my large tanks and always overbuy from what they say you need. The advantage I find of a canister filter is that you can just disconnect it (make sure you get connectors that allow you to do this), carry it into the bathroom and empty it into the bath. No mess, no fuss. It saves all the fiddling about inside the tank which my arms aren't long enough to do easily without getting soaked. Plus you only have to rinse the bath down afterwards to clean up :D

[Tubby Rower]

@ Robboo, yeah I think the "pain" I was in only slightly made up for the 19 months of discomfort and pain she was in from carrying and delivering our two kids. No sympathy I tell you. The Wii was just lucky timing :D

[Tubby Rower]

I just bought the Eheim Ecco 2236 filter for almost exactly $90. Free shipping with PetSmart's 20th anniversary and a coupon code I found online for $10 off $50 or more :) saved me 22 bucks [coool]


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200732415429_Image2.jpg
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[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I just bought the Eheim Ecco 2236 filter for almost exactly $90. Free shipping with PetSmart's 20th anniversary and a coupon code I found online for $10 off $50 or more :) saved me 22 bucks [coool]


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200732415429_Image2.jpg
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Nice deal. Those cost 87 euro's here, so you got it for a very good price...

[admiral kutzov]

will there be mermaids and can you please post pictures of such creatures? preferrably topless.

[Tubby Rower]

Now that we are moved in and have the check from the additional proceeds from our old home that was not needed for the new house.... I just purchased a 55 gal tank (4' long). I had to leave it there because I was also getting Sherry to pick out the stand/cabinet that she wanted. I ended up with a Perfecto "kit" that has a nice metal stand with a light colored wooden cabinet built in it. It also came with the said 55gal box, the hoods, and a canopy that matches the said stand.

I purchased a master test kit with pH, GH, KH, etc. All told it was $647. so add that to my filter and the rocks that I likely overpaid for, I've already busted my original budget. I'll get pictures up when I get it in the house.

[Darkness]

Sounds good!

[Furiey]

Definitely need pics, that's the same length as my tank. I'm getting tempted again to move to a Malawi setup....

[Tubby Rower]

Ok I have the fish tank in and got a chance to take a picture and upload it. Ana and I also tested the tap water. the pH out of the tap (after declorinating) is between 8.0 and 8.2. The KH and GH is negligable if existant at all. I went to Lowes (big box hardware store) and got some "egg crate" for the bottom. I still need to clean out the inside of the tank and hook up the filter. I also need a heater and a power strip but that's not necessary until I get closer to actually putting fish in there. I bought a GFCI outlet to protect against an unexpected spill in the direction of the outlet.

I'll likely get argonite since I'll need some buffer stuff for the water

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200741602837_fish tank.jpg
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[socralynnek]

mmmh, is that two cable fish inside of the tank?

[spam2]

[Tubby Rower]

Yeah, I'm gonna have electric eels and decided to use that spare bio-energy [:p]

no those two are from the hood that I haven't unraveled yet. They are hanging behing the tank ;)

[Furiey]

This is the time I find most frustrating - you have the tank and just want to get the fish in there but have to go through the set up process getting the tank stabalised before the fish go anywhere near it.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

the pH out of the tap (after declorinating) is between 8.0 and 8.2. The KH and GH is negligable if existant at all.


Looks very promising so far... :)

PH is great.
What are the exact values for the KH and GH?

If they are below 6-8 you are giong to need some salts to get them up.

EDIT: This might be useful :)
http://www.cichlidforum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php

[Tubby Rower]

I saw that buffer recipe and was going to get the required stuff in the next couple days. The GH and KH tests were supposed to change the color with the first drop of the testing solution. The instructions also stated that if the GH (or KH) was very low (~ 1 °dkH or something like that) that the water will remain clear and that is what both of the tests did.

@ Furiey... I'm fine with the wait. It'll give me some time to get used to the testing and stuff.

[Tubby Rower]

$588 (Sherry wanted a different style so I paid a little extra for that) 55 gal (~ 200 liter) tank <s>~$125</s> stand for said tank <s>~$157</s> matching canopy for said stand (optional) <s>~$91</s> hood/lights for said tank <s>$82</s> greyish sand on the bottom $??? still haven't found sand I'm happy with if I can't use Tahitian moon sand rocks for decoration $90 for 4 filter $85 fish $70-80 based off of Darkness's suggestions and the prices that I can get them egg crate $10

running total for startup $773 so far with sand, heater & fish to go

[Tubby Rower]

I'm thinking of painting the back of the tank. I'm leaning towards a dark dark green if I can find it in a suitable spray paint.

Also, do I need to be concerned about water movement in this sized tank?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I'm thinking of painting the back of the tank. I'm leaning towards a dark dark green if I can find it in a suitable spray paint.


Dark grey, green, blue or black should be fine. Emphasis should be on the word "dark" though, like you said.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Also, do I need to be concerned about water movement in this sized tank?


I'm not sure what you mean?
Are you afraid that there will be too much or too little water movement?

In both instances I think you'll be fine. Just put both the filter inlet and the outlet (spray tube) on the same side of the tank. That should give a nice circular flow. Also: Put the spray tube just below the watersurface and aim the outflowing water at the surface. This will give a nice amount of turbulence at the surface, which is great for oxygen exchange between water and air, so your oxygen level in the water will be high (which your fish will like a lot).

[Tubby Rower]

the water movement I was concerned with was a lack of water movement. I'll place my filter inlet and outlet as you mentioned and leave it at that for now.

Yesterday on the way home, I picked up a 40lb bag of argonite (~$50), a submersible 200W heater ($30), a floating thermometer, spray paint for the back of the glass that coincidentally matched the trim on the stand (dark green), ammonia (for cycling), epsom salt and baking soda.


Since my pH is ~8.0 and argonite will push the pH up to 8.2 do I even need the baking soda? Do I need any salt (ie: instant ocean) or will the epsom salt be enough?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


Since my pH is ~8.0 and argonite will push the pH up to 8.2 do I even need the baking soda? Do I need any salt (ie: instant ocean) or will the epsom salt be enough?


I'm not sure...
I don't use the stuff because the water out of the tap here in Rotterdam is perfect for Malawi's. You could try it first with only the epsom salt, and change to include the other salt if there is no change in KH and GH after a week.

Edit: On second thought: the other salts will strengthen the buffering capacity of your water, which should be very beneficial, considering you will be doing waterchanges with low hardness water.

[Tubby Rower]

Ok. After an afternoon of spaying paint on glass and looking through the front for missed spots then repeating, here is what I have. I have some stuff to do tomorrow before it rains on Thursday so I prolly won't be able to work on it tomorrow (Wednesday). Next on the list is to clean out the tank then getting some felt for the supports to make sure that there is no high spots. Then I'll be checking to make sure the tank is level. After that, I'll put in the egg crate, sand, rocks and water. Then hook up the filter and start the fish-less cycling process.

picture with the flash on
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200741841138_painted tank w flash.jpg
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picture with the flash off
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200741841150_painted tank wo flash.jpg
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[Furiey]

My filter is set up as Darkness describes and that gives plenty of water flow. If you find when you put the rocks and everything in that you get a pocket of still water, you can always add a small pump with an airstone in that spot, or rearrange your rocks etc to get rid of it.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Ok. After an afternoon of spaying paint on glass and looking through the front for missed spots then repeating, here is what I have. I have some stuff to do tomorrow before it rains on Thursday so I prolly won't be able to work on it tomorrow (Wednesday). Next on the list is to clean out the tank then getting some felt for the supports to make sure that there is no high spots. Then I'll be checking to make sure the tank is level. After that, I'll put in the egg crate, sand, rocks and water. Then hook up the filter and start the fish-less cycling process.

picture with the flash on
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200741841138_painted tank w flash.jpg
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picture with the flash off
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200741841150_painted tank wo flash.jpg
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Looks good!

Small suggestion: Put in the rocks BEFORE you add the sand. Mbuna's dig a lot, and if they dig away the sand underneath the rocks then the rocks can tumble down, which you definately do not want in a glass surrounding.

[Tubby Rower]

what I was intending on doing is to put the egg crate down and then fill in the grid with the sand. put the rocks in then and after the rocks are in place, add the rest of the sand. Thanks for bringing that up.. how deep should the sand bed be?

[Darkness]

a bit of a slope is usually nice to see...

about 2-3 cm in the front of the tank and 5-6 cm at the back.
Then again, if you don't want to have plants you can do with a bit less I think.

[Furiey]

Echo Darkness.

Make sure the large/heavy rocks are supported through to the bottom and not just sitting on sand. It's not just the rocks dropping down on the glass, but I have lost a fish that was pinned under a falling rock.

A slope on the sand is nice to see, the depth is more important if you have an undergravel filter, but Mbunas do dig and like a decent depth to dig in.

[mauer]

I'd fill it with milk first, and go to the grocery store and get one of those really big (like 12" or something) cookies to dunk.

[Furiey]

A friend of mine has a 6 foot long tank. When his first child was born we joked that he was going to use the tank to teach him to swim then he could put him in there to keep him out of mischief!

[Tubby Rower]

Ethan could probably do laps in it.. but Ana could only float. Her legs are getting long. She'll have out-grown Sherry by the time she turns 7.

quote:Originally posted by mauer

I'd fill it with milk first, and go to the grocery store and get one of those really big (like 12" or something) cookies to dunk.
go back to your diet. [:p]

[Tubby Rower]

Ok, I'm not sure how much I've screwed up so far, but here's what I've done in the past 24 hours.

I cleaned out the dust, bugs and other miscellaneous stuff from the tank. I just took some regular water and wiped it down with a rag since most sponges that I've seen have "not for aquarium use" on them. Then I put the egg crate in and filled in the gaps with the argonite
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007421164138_egg_crate_and_initial_sand.jpg
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I then scrubbed with a wire brush some rocks that I have found in a creek behind my father-in-law's house. I got a bunch of junk off. Then I put them in a 5-gal bucket with some water and a bit of bleach to kill off anything that might still be living on it. I let the rocks sit overnight. This morning I put them in the tank and organinzed the rocks to my liking. I didn't rinse the rocks since I figured that I was going to end up putting a de-chlorinator in the water anyway.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007421164156_rocks_in.jpg
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After getting approval from Sherry, I dumped the rest of the sand in the tank. and made a slight slope as suggested by yon Darkness and Furiey.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007421164639_sand_in_tank.jpg
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Then I added ~ 15 gallons of water to the tank this morning. I poured the water onto the empty sand bag to prevent the water from displacing every sand granule in the place that the water hit. After the 3rd bucket of water I stopped and realized a mistake. I forgot to rinse the sand. [wallbash]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007421164210_no_rinse.jpg
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So I stopped adding water since I likely need to start over. I had to come into work for a little while this morning so I have time for you guys to suggest how I recover from my stupidity. (it seems that this disease isn't isolated to civ :() Two questions: (1) Do I need to pull those rocks out and rinse them or will the de-chlorinator take care of any bleach left on the rocks?? (2) If I remove the water that is currently in the tank, will that suffice as a rinse or should I pull it out and rinse properly?

[Darkness]

Seems like progress is being made... :)

A couple of suggestions:

- Take out the sand and the rocks and rinse them with water from the tap. The sand definately needs it. Otherwise you're going to be looking at a lot of floating dust for the next week. Also, the stones might need a good cleaning. You never know what floated along in that creek.

- I really like the stones you found in the creek. Very nice (much prettier than the holey rock, IMHO), and their shape will make it easy for you to stack them. I would strongly suggest getting a few more (10 or so, 4 or 5 large ones (like those you have now), and the rest smaller) to build up some rock formations. Mbuna like to swim in and out of rocky area's and the rocks also function as hiding places for the females when the males get a bit boisterous.

- Set up the technical/electrical stuff first. Don't plug in the power yet, just set it up in the tank. For example: The filter inlet. If you put it in one of the back corners you could easily put some rocks in front of it to hide it from view. I did the same in my tank. Both filter inlets are hidden behind the big stack on the right. That would look much nicer, IMHO.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3346/pict2186zj6.jpg

[Tubby Rower]

The stones were scrubbed with a wire brush and then soaked in bleach-water overnight. I'm not sure how else to clean them. I have some more rocks from the creek, but Some of them have a reddish tint due to the clay that they were in. the ones in the tank now are the cleanest ones that I have found. I can clean the others and see how they look.

I'm gonna hate pulling all of that sand out of there. :(

[Tubby Rower]

Also... how do you protect the glass from getting scratched by the rocks in your big stack?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Also... how do you protect the glass from getting scratched by the rocks in your big stack?


You mean the side window?

Simple: None of them touches the side. That's why it is so important to add the sand after the rocks, because if the stones are stacked solidly no Mbuna will ever move them, but if they can dig the sand from underneath then it will eventually collapse...

[Tubby Rower]

ah. It looked like they were stacked up against the rear of the tank.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

ah. It looked like they were stacked up against the rear of the tank.


They are, just not against the side...
The back has a background between the stones and the glass.

[Furiey]

I like the background you have Darkness, I haven't got one on my tank as the ones I've seen so far have looked too fake.

I rinse my sand/gravel in an old net curtain with a hose (outside of course). This allows the water and dust/dirt to flow though while keeping the gravel in. You may get away with just removing the water, but you'd probably find as you add more water you'll get more dust, so you might have to do it several times effectively rinsing it out in the tank. It would probably be easier then just to get the majority of the sand out and have done with it. The river rocks you've found are really nice, most of mine have come from stony beaches or rivers and I prefer them (ie: much cheaper) to the shop bought ones. If I use a bleach though I would probably soak the rocks for 24 hours or so in a bucket after I have thoroughly rinsed them just to be sure - I'm a bit paranoid and don't trust declorinator to do anything more than declorinate tap water.

It's definitly worth getting the filter, heater etc all positioned and in so that you can build up the scenery to hide them, much easier than trying to get it all in afterwards and disturbing all your carefully positioned rock formations(and rocks tumbling down and hitting the glass is not good for the nerves...).

[Tubby Rower]

last night, Ana and I got the sand out and rinsed it in a bucket pouring the cloudy water in the tub (shhh.. don't tell Sherry). I brought in some more rocks, but I think that I'm gonna need more. I wasn't able to hide the filter intake too well, and I'm not gonna be stacking anything against the glass since I have no backdrop other than the painted backglass.

Then Ana and I dumped the cleaner sand back in the tank and then we proceeded to add 55 gal of water. It took me three tries beforeI found the appropriate amount of ammonia to get the level to 5 ppm. I disolved some baking soda and epsom salt into the water and I tested the KH and GH today and they were ~ 11°DKH and 23°DGH. I'll just plan on adjusting again once the tank is cycled. The EHEIM filter was super-easy to get setup and start.

The only thing left besides waiting for the bacteria to colonate is to get an extension cord for the submersible heater. After that, everything should be set for fish once the ammonia and nirtrites get back to 0. oh and the rocks. I placed then where there is some space behind them so it shouldn't be too hard to re-position if need be. But I hope to leave it alone ;)

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

last night, Ana and I got the sand out and rinsed it in a bucket pouring the cloudy water in the tub (shhh.. don't tell Sherry). I brought in some more rocks, but I think that I'm gonna need more. I wasn't able to hide the filter intake too well, and I'm not gonna be stacking anything against the glass since I have no backdrop other than the painted backglass.

Then Ana and I dumped the cleaner sand back in the tank and then we proceeded to add 55 gal of water. It took me three tries beforeI found the appropriate amount of ammonia to get the level to 5 ppm. I disolved some baking soda and epsom salt into the water and I tested the KH and GH today and they were ~ 11°DKH and 23°DGH. I'll just plan on adjusting again once the tank is cycled. The EHEIM filter was super-easy to get setup and start.

The only thing left besides waiting for the bacteria to colonate is to get an extension cord for the submersible heater. After that, everything should be set for fish once the ammonia and nirtrites get back to 0. oh and the rocks. I placed then where there is some space behind them so it shouldn't be too hard to re-position if need be. But I hope to leave it alone ;)


Sounds good.
Now just leave the tank alone for a week or so and then check the water parameters again (pH, KH, GH, NO2 and NO3 are the most important ones). If the values are good and you've finished decorating the tank, then you can do a 50% water change and then you can start considering adding a SINGLE species of fish (3-4 fish maximum). Why would you want to do that? Because you need to start the nitrate cycle. By adding a few fish to the tank and letting them do their thing (feeding, producing waste, etc.) you're proving food for your bacterial colony in the filter. The colony will grow slowly, until it is capable of handling more fish. After adding the first few fish I'd recommend waiting about 2 weeks before adding any new fish, and doing about a 33% water change twice a week during those two weeks. After those two weeks you can add more fish (if your water parameters are good), starting with low aggression fish and adding the most aggressive ones last (like the Melanochromis species). Don't add too many at once. Start with a second species first and wait a week to observe how it goes....

[Tubby Rower]

The way I understood the fishless cycling is that you could nearly fully stock the tank after the fishless cycling was complete.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

The way I understood the fishless cycling is that you could nearly fully stock the tank after the fishless cycling was complete.


Theoretically yes, but I would strongly recommend against it.
Theoretically you would be able to prevent the dreaded nitrate peak by doing a 3 week fishless cycle, but in practice it doesn't always work out that way...

The addition of all your fish at once gives a gigantic boost in excrement production, and thus a huge increase in NO2 and NO3 concentration, which the newly formed bacterial colony can't handle immediately. You are then forced to do daily 50% waterchanges for about a week (just to keep the NO2 and NO3 levels under control), followed by another two weeks of doing 50% waterchanges very other day (or very three days). Very tricky business, as missing just one water change can get the NO2 and NO3 concentration to lethal levels. And, in my experience, Mbuna get evil tendencies if the water parameters are worse, like mass picking on one weaker fish, killing her (almost always) in an hour or so...

[Furiey]

Patience grasshopper.

As Darkness says, theory and practice don't always go hand in hand. If you can be patient it is better to go slowly. Even ignoring the nitrate issues I find that adding large numbers of fish to a new tank can set off a great deal of fighting as they are all trying to find their way around the tank and pick the best territory. At least if you add them slowly the earlier fish know the hiding places by the time the new lot arrive.

[Tubby Rower]

My wife asked if I was just going to have all of these rocks or if there was going to be something green in there. I noticed that, Darkness, you had some grass-y looking plants in yours. How do you have them anchored? Doesn't the fish dig them up? Also doesn't the plants consume some nitrates? Any suggestions on something green for my wife?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

My wife asked if I was just going to have all of these rocks or if there was going to be something green in there. I noticed that, Darkness, you had some grass-y looking plants in yours. How do you have them anchored? Doesn't the fish dig them up? Also doesn't the plants consume some nitrates? Any suggestions on something green for my wife?


grassy stuff: Vallisneria spiralis.
Fast growing plant very well suited for decorating cichlid tanks. It grows massive roots structures, so it anchors itself firmly in the sand in a week or two. My Cynotilapia afra male sometimes rips off one of the leaves, but he only takes a couple a month. V. spiralis is very good for nitrate reduction, so it's a very useful addition to the tank. Do not plant these too deep in the sand. The roots have to be below the sand, the rest MUST be above the sand, or else the plant will die.
Other plants you can use are Hydrilla verticulata or any Anubias species. Vallisneria is an easier plant though. One other thing: Only use V. spiralis, other Vallisneria types can't handle the high pH/KH and die in Malawi tanks. Also: really stupid, I know, but V. spiralis suggests curled leaves. However it has only straight leaves, the curled leaf variety is another type of Vallisneria and it can't deal with high pH/KH.

[Tubby Rower]

would it be good to add them now or should I wait until the tank is cycled before adding the plants?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

would it be good to add them now or should I wait until the tank is cycled before adding the plants?


Add them now. That will give them extra time to grow roots.

[Tubby Rower]

just called the local fish store and all they have is "Jungle Val". a quick search on the internet tells me that it's not the same as the kind you have (which is called "Tape" or "Tiger"). Why can't these fools just use the Latin names?

Anyway, I can't find the link again, but I found one that stated that most of the Vallisneria species would do ok in hard high pH water and are easy to take care of. The gigantea species is obviously something that wouldn't fit in my tank though. So I'm gonna look at what they got on the way home from work and maybe try a few.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


Anyway, I can't find the link again, but I found one that stated that most of the Vallisneria species would do ok in hard high pH water and are easy to take care of. The gigantea species is obviously something that wouldn't fit in my tank though. So I'm gonna look at what they got on the way home from work and maybe try a few.


You can always try that. I've heard other people say the same thing. In my experience it's not the case, but I will immediately admit that I am not very skilled with aquatic plants.

AFAIK jungle val is a weird name for Vallisneria americana. Now I recently read something on a Dutch fish-site about a guy using it in him Malawi tank and it did quite well. So this might be a good option for you to try...

[Tubby Rower]

I got a plant yesterday (it was their only one). They were only $1. It already had a little plant growing off of a runner. So I broke that one off and planted it too.

I've been adding ammonia every day for a few days now, but my nitrites haven't budged :( Hopefully these plants can donate some of the bacteria that I need. I realize that this could take a couple of weeks, but I was hoping for a quicker turnaround. Oh well, patience is a virtue.

http://home.comcast.net/~cventers/tank_4_25.jpg

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


http://home.comcast.net/~cventers/tank_4_25.jpg


Excellent start. :)
Not trying to be a nitpicking bastard here but I have three strong suggestions:

1 - Add even more rocks. It looks quite open now. Mbuna love lots of rocks with little gaps to swim through.

2 - Stack the rocks higher. Mbuna often stay close to the rocks, so if you stack the rocks higher then the fish will more often also swim in the upper part of the tank.

3 - Split your stack of rocks in two stacks, one on each side. With one big stack it will be one single territorium for the strongest fish. If there are two stacks with an open area of sand in between them, then the fish will be able to define their own places better and they will have better options to evade the boss of the tank.

[Darkness]

I just noticed that it appears that you've built your stack of stones in the middle of the tank...
Why not just stack them against the back window? You've already painted it so it's not like you will notice the small scratches the rocks will make. The advantage of this is that you have an extra wall against which you can stack your stones (increased stability) and you will have more swimming area in front of the stones (where you want to see your fish).

[Tubby Rower]

I have the heater directly in the middle ~ 1" off of the sand's surface. So those rocks are hiding that. The stack on the left is covering the bottom of the intake for the filter. I could shift that stack so that it's braced against the back left corner, but wouldn't that hurt the flow for the filter?


FWIW, the limestone on the right of the tank has some nice holes in it that face towards the side. That side is facing the hallway so it's one of the first things that you should be seeing. I'll have to make a trip back to the creek to get some more rocks. Then I'll have to scrub them and I'll definately be soaking them this time.

btw, I love the EHEIM filter that you suggested. It was easy to set up and you hear absolutely nothing. [thumbsup]

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I could shift that stack so that it's braced against the back left corner, but wouldn't that hurt the flow for the filter?


As long as you don't block the entire inlet you should be fine. I have two inlets next to eachother behind a huge stack of rocks and my flow is fine.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

btw, I love the EHEIM filter that you suggested. It was easy to set up and you hear absolutely nothing. [thumbsup]


Yes, they're the best. I have 3 Eheims and 1 Tetratec at home and the Tetratec is by far the loudest.

At what temperature did you set the heater? Mbuna aggression increases as the water temperature increases. I usually aim at 23-24 degrees Celsius (about 74 Fahrenheit, IIRC). In Lake Malawi temperatures range from 22-27 degrees Celsius (depending on weather/season, etc.), so anything in that range should be just fine.

[Tubby Rower]

I have it unplugged currently. Once I moved it behind the rocks at the bottom, the cord wasn't long enough. So I'll have to get an extension. I had it set @ 78°F to help the bacteria to get up and running. If my tank gets too hot, how do I cool it off? Or will that be a concern. Our house stays ~ 72° so it should be cooling it slightly, but I'm afraid that the florescent bulbs and filter might take it up a notch or two.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

If my tank gets too hot, how do I cool it off? Or will that be a concern. Our house stays ~ 72° so it should be cooling it slightly, but I'm afraid that the florescent bulbs and filter might take it up a notch or two.


It is not a problem if the water gets a bit warmer for a period of time. But if the temperatures get above 28-29 degrees (82-84) for a time then you'll have take some action. Water changes with slightly cooler water (just a couple of degrees lower, not too much as that will hurt the fish), opening the hood of the tank at night (cooling on the air, if the airtemperature in the house is lower than the temperature in the tank, turning off the lights, etc.

We had a heat wave here in the Netherlands last summer. About two weeks with day temperatures of above 35 degrees. I had to change water every other day just to get the water to drop to 28 degrees at night. :(

[Tubby Rower]

quote:Originally posted by Darkness


We had a heat wave here in the Netherlands last summer. About two weeks with day temperatures of above 35 degrees. I had to change water every other day just to get the water to drop to 28 degrees at night. :(


bet that made for some feisty fish [meany]

btw, go post pictures in your thread. You promised.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


bet that made for some feisty fish [meany]



Yes. But forutunately no fatalities...


quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


btw, go post pictures in your thread. You promised.


I'll post some on saturday or sunday. I've got to do maintenance first... [blush2]
I'm having a small blue algae problem at the moment. Nothing serious but it just looks really ugly, so I'll clean and do a big water change before taking some pics.

[Tubby Rower]

I would be interested in a pic of your ugly tank so I know what I'm looking at if I end up with such a problem. If you don't mind, you can email it to me so that the other yahoos here don't see it. Or you could post it in this thread since it's jsut you, me and Furiey [lol]

[mauer]

I'm watching the evolution of glass to habitat...so there [:p]

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I would be interested in a pic of your ugly tank so I know what I'm looking at if I end up with such a problem. If you don't mind, you can email it to me so that the other yahoos here don't see it. Or you could post it in this thread since it's jsut you, me and Furiey [lol]


I just got a decent shot of my fullgrown male Aulonocara sp. Lwanda, so I'll post a few pictures in my fish thread...

[Tubby Rower]

I've been testing my water and finally have some nitrites. Finally ran a test for nitrates and 0. Did a test for ammonia for kicks and the color wasn't even close to the highest, so it's off the chart. [lol]

so far here have been my test results.

Date Ammonia added Ammonnia Nitrite Nitrate
4/21 5 drops 0.25 ppm
4/21 75 more drops 1 ppm
4/21 15 more mL 4 pmm
4/22 20 mL 0 ppm
4/23 20 mL 0 ppm
4/24 20 mL 0 ppm &lt;--- added plants here
4/25 20 mL 0 ppm
4/26 10 mL off hi scale 0.25 ppm 0ppm


I wonder how much effect getting that plant had [hmm]

[Darkness]

I strongly suggest stopping immediately with the ammonia additions. I understand the reasoning behind the additions, but:
1 - the nitrate cycle will not truely commence until the first fish are added
2 - the plant is pretty small, so I doubt you can see any effects even if you continued this for a few months.

You ammonia is way too high (poisonous levels even (for fish)). I would recommend the following procedure:

1. Change 75% water today
2. Change another 50% water in 3 days
3. Change another 50% water a week from now, then immediately measure pH, KH, GH, NO2 and NO3.

During this period you shouldn't add anything except the salts for your waterhardness during waterchanges.

[Tubby Rower]

I realize that the ammonia is poisonous, but that's what the procedures that I have read said to do. They never mention to stop adding it until it's fully cycled. Basically (if I'm understanding you correctly), your wanting me to remove all water from my tank and start over? Why bother with the 2 additional changes if I could just start from scratch and have very little ammonia left in the tank? I'll be leaving next weekend and if this thing hasn't started working I'll take your advise. I'd like to continue at least to next weekend to see if the bacteria will "catch up" they said that it could take up to 14 days before it finishes.

How is the nitrate cycle not going to commence if I'm adding the same stuff that the fish will add? From what I've read, one bacteria eats ammonia and excretes nitrite and another bacteria eats nitrite and excretes nitrate. What else do fish add to the picture?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I realize that the ammonia is poisonous, but that's what the procedures that I have read said to do. They never mention to stop adding it until it's fully cycled. Basically (if I'm understanding you correctly), your wanting me to remove all water from my tank and start over? Why bother with the 2 additional changes if I could just start from scratch and have very little ammonia left in the tank?

One of the most common misconceptions about the bacterial culture in fish tank is that the bacteria are in the water. They are not. 95-98% of the bacteria are either in the filtermaterial or in the sand.
Ammonia is like that. It is also present in the sand and the filter and one waterchange isn't going to fix your levels...

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


How is the nitrate cycle not going to commence if I'm adding the same stuff that the fish will add? From what I've read, one bacteria eats ammonia and excretes nitrite and another bacteria eats nitrite and excretes nitrate. What else do fish add to the picture?


Basically the fish provide the kick-start to the nitrate cycle. Their excerements (and the bacteria in it) are just the thing the bacterial culture needs to get going properly.

What you're basically doing right now is a pure "fishless cycle". This works just fine, but I simply don't have the patience for it. The drawback of the "fishless cycle" is that it will start a bacterial colony, BUT (and this is a very important but, IMHO) this colony is not strong enough to handle fully stocking the tank immediately. Now this is not neccessarily a problem, but it is very important to keep in mind.



My personal "recipe" for starting a tank is very simple and straightforward:
Day 1: set up tank and stand. Balance them exactly right. Set up elecronics, but do not plug them in yet.
Day 2: Glue in the background (and bottomprotection if required).
Day 4: Fill tank with water to filter out toxins from glue. Set up filter at maximum, filtering only over carbon
Day 7: Take out all the water, Disconnect filter and throw away the carbon. Then set up all electronics. Decorate the tank (stones/sand). Fill the tank and plug in all powerchords.
Day 14: 50% waterchange and add first fish species
Day 17: 50% waterchange
Day 21: 50% waterchange and add second fish species
Day 28: 50% waterchange and add third fish species
Day 35: 50% waterchange and add fourth fish species, etc.

Now I am not saying this is a fullproof method, but I have great experiences with this and a lot of people I know do it roughly the same way.
I am a member of the Dutch association of cichlid keepers and I got the basics for this method from another member for whom I have a huge load of respect (he's basically regarded THE expert on African catfish in the Netherlands and Belgium).

[Tubby Rower]

Ah. I wasn't trying to argue with you about it, but I just wanted to know why. I'd still like to try my current method out at least until next weekend. If the ammonia isn't in control by the middle of next week, then I'll plan on going through your recovery procedure a few posts up.

quote:One of the most common misconceptions about the bacterial culture in fish tank is that the bacteria are in the water. They are not. 95-98% of the bacteria are either in the filtermaterial or in the sand.
Ammonia is like that. It is also present in the sand and the filter and one waterchange isn't going to fix your levels...
That's why I wrote "very little ammonia left in the tank". The fresh water from a nearly 100% water replacement should greatly diminish the ammonia in the tank on a ppm basis.


On a side note, I've read somewhere that the carbon filter is only active for like 8 days or something like that. In your opinion, is it ok to leave it in there until the first filter cleaning or should I stop it and remove the carbon pad?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Ah. I wasn't trying to argue with you about it, but I just wanted to know why. I'd still like to try my current method out at least until next weekend. If the ammonia isn't in control by the middle of next week, then I'll plan on going through your recovery procedure a few posts up.


No problem. discussion = good. :)

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

On a side note, I've read somewhere that the carbon filter is only active for like 8 days or something like that. In your opinion, is it ok to leave it in there until the first filter cleaning or should I stop it and remove the carbon pad?


I don't know about the 8 days, but it is true that carbon filters get saturated quite quickly. Leaving it in should not be a problem, but if you stop it and replace the carbon filter with other filtration material you will increase you filtration surface, which will (ultimately) increase your bacterial culture's size.
If it's not too much trouble I'd take it out if I were you.

[Tubby Rower]

btw, here (http://www.cichlidforum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php) is the article that I'm using for fishless cycling. After re-reading it just now, I realize that I shouldn't have cut back on the ammonia just yet. I have to wait until the nitrite peaks.[nowait]

According to that article, this method actually is shorter than adding fish slowly. If it gets the ammonia under control by next week, then I'll still add the fish slowly, but I would like to at least give this a chance. So I'm not completely ignoring you Darkness [mwaha]

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

btw, here (http://www.cichlidforum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php) is the article that I'm using for fishless cycling. After re-reading it just now, I realize that I shouldn't have cut back on the ammonia just yet. I have to wait until the nitrite peaks.[nowait]

According to that article, this method actually is shorter than adding fish slowly. If it gets the ammonia under control by next week, then I'll still add the fish slowly, but I would like to at least give this a chance. So I'm not completely ignoring you Darkness [mwaha]


It's a good article and the method described is certainly a valid method. Just don't add too many fish at once after the fishless cycle (unless you're willing to do daily water changes for about ten days after stocking the tank)...

[ProPain]

strangely I keep finding this thread an interesting read although fish tanks really aren't my cup of tea. Intrigues me how complicated the whole thing is though. I always thought: buy tank, throw in stuff, fill up, throw in fish and you;re done. Much more too it than that I see now.

[Tubby Rower]

I tested yesterday and nitrite has risen to 0.5 ppm and still high ammonia and no nitrates. Although the ammonia test looks less blue now [:/] (there is no blue on the scale, just yellow to dark green [lol])

[Tubby Rower]

Ok.. to update my test table

Date Ammonia added Ammonnia Nitrite Nitrate
4/21 5 drops 0.25 ppm
4/21 75 more drops 1 ppm
4/21 15 more mL 4 pmm
4/22 20 mL 0 ppm
4/23 20 mL 0 ppm
4/24 20 mL 0 ppm &lt;--- added plants here
4/25 20 mL 0 ppm
4/26 10 mL off hi scale 0.25 ppm 0ppm
4/27 20 mL off hi scale 0.5 ppm 0ppm
4/28 15 mL off hi scale 1 ppm 0ppm
4/29 10 mL off hi scale 2 ppm 5ppm


So that means that I have both types of bacteria present. I have cut back on the ammonia that I'm adding. Ammonia is still pretty high which is concerning me. If anything I've added less than the instructions I was following stated to add. Since it doesn't look like this will finish by tomorrow, I'll be waiting until I return from our trip this weekend before doing anything. Since there will be no fish in the tank, I'll need to keep them "fed" with ammonia until I get back. On next Sunday, I plan on doing 50% water change (assuming that ammonia & nitrite levels are 0) and add fish probably next monday. If the levels aren't 0 then I will go by Darkness's strategy of 75% water change, 50% 3 days later, then see what's going on.

[Tubby Rower]

OK since we are leaving this morning for the weekend, I did ~75% water change and re-adjusted the rocks to try to have a larger stack where the filter intake is. I do need to get some more rocks though. Sherry said that she like the other arrangement better. I figure that when I add a new species, I could re-adjust the rocks then. I hoping that when we get back on Sunday, that the water will be more suitable for fish.

btw, the plants died on me. Not sure if the radical water chemistry, the lack of appropriate light, or the lack of fertilizers killed them.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower



btw, the plants died on me. Not sure if the radical water chemistry, the lack of appropriate light, or the lack of fertilizers killed them.


Neither lack of good light ot lack of fertilizers would have killed the plants that fast. That will take a few weeks at least...

[Tubby Rower]

well I tested my water tonight and the ammonia is down to 0 ppm but the nitrites are still @ 2 ppm. The good news is that nitrates were up to 20 ppm. So that means that I have all of the bacteria necessary. I'm planning on doing a 50% water change tonight and getting the KH and GH correct (pH is still ~8.0-8.2). Then tomorrow on the way home I'm either gonna buy the yellow labs or the rustys.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

well I tested my water tonight and the ammonia is down to 0 ppm but the nitrites are still @ 2 ppm. The good news is that nitrates were up to 20 ppm. So that means that I have all of the bacteria necessary. I'm planning on doing a 50% water change tonight and getting the KH and GH correct (pH is still ~8.0-8.2). Then tomorrow on the way home I'm either gonna buy the yellow labs or the rustys.


Sounds like a good plan to me... [goodjob]

After you've added the fish monitor the water parameters carefully and don't hesitate to throw in an extra waterchange if you feel the pollutants concentrations are too high.

I'll add a "tips on buying cichlids" in a few hours. I'm a bit busy now...

[Tubby Rower]

The 50% water change went well. I added a commercial Malawi cichlid salt per the directions. They said to wait 24 hours to test for KH & GH so I'm not sure if the hardness is correct, but it will be hopefully by the time that I get the fish in there (ig: waiting on the temp of the bag water to equalize with the tank water will give me some time to dissolve some Epsom salts and baking soda in the water.

quote:if you feel the pollutants concentrations are too high
what is "too high"?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


quote:if you feel the pollutants concentrations are too high
what is "too high"?


Ammonia must be below 0.1 ppm
nitrite (NO2) must be below 2 ppm
nitrate (NO3) must be below 10 ppm

So, looking at your parameters before the waterchange: Ammonia is fine. The 50% waterchange put your nitrite at 1 ppm, which is good. Nitrate should now be at 10 ppm. A bit high, but noting to worry about. If you now add 2-3 fish, the bacterial culture will get the kick-start it needs to become a healthy, fully functional biological filter.

For reference:
Toxic/lethal levels for fish:

Ammonia: 0.17 ppm at pH 8.5 (highly pH dependent. Higher pH means lower lethal levels for ammonia).
Nitrite: 10-20 ppm
Nitrate: 50 ppm

[Darkness]

OK, some tips on buying cichlids…

General
Know what fish you’re going to buy. Know its’ needs and requirements, because often shopkeepers don’t know and some lie to you. So it is always best to know the details for yourself.
Try not to stray from the objective. Don’t get lured into buying another (prettier/cheaper) fish. These may not be compatible with the set-up you’re aiming for.
You never want to buy sick fish, so it is essential to check their health when you buy them.

What do you need to look at to check for health?
- Look at the fish’s belly. It should be nice and firm. If the bellies hollow then they are most likely either underfed or infected with intestinal worms.
- Check the bottom of the tank for excrement. If it is present then it should be dark and firm. If it is slimy and whitish then the fish are most likely suffering from a disease called “Tropheus Bloat”
- Check the gills of the fish. If they are very red or protruding from the body then the oxygen level in the tank is low. This is not dangerous in terms of disease but it does weaken the fish.
- Check the edges of the fins. If they are frayed in long stretches then the fish may suffer from fin-rot. If it is just small parts of damage to the fins then these marks are most likely bites from other fish.
- Check for activity. Mbuna are active, boisterous fish. If they are just hanging around, they may not be in perfect health.
Now if there is any hollow belly, white excrement or fin-rot on any fish in the tank then do not buy any fish from that particular tank, because then all fish at least carry the disease. They may not be sick (yet), but they are at least infected.

Selecting fish from the tank
- When selecting Mbuna’s, larger fish are better (1 exception, which is the point below this one). Larger means easier to sex, which will give you a better chance of getting the male/female ratio correct.
- Never pick the largest male. Although these are (almost) always the prettiest fish in the tank there is also a reason that they became that large. (Now it could be that the fish is just older than the others but that is very unlikely. You will almost always find groups of fish of similar age in a tank (from the same spawn/breeder, that the shop bought a group of fish from). The exception is of course if you’re buying wildcaught fish. Then ages can differ.) The reason that the largest male is the largest fish is because it is the most aggressive fish in the tank. It eats more food than the others because it bullies the others away from the food. By picking the second or third largest male in the tank, you will at least evade the big testosterone bomb that the largest male is likely to be.
- Select your own fish. Make sure the shopkeeper catches the fish that you indicate. You’re making a selection for a reason, so don’t settle for just 2 or 3 fish from that tank.
- Sexing cichlids: Difficult, I know. Sexing can be done in 2 different ways:
Visual characteristics and Venting.
1 – Visual characteristics: Most Mbuna males will be more active than females. Also males tend to have “heavier” bodies. Males also tend to be larger than females. Whatever the shopkeeper tells you: Females do NOT have only 1 eggspot. (my C. afra female has 3 eggspots and 25 kids swimming around her). Some fish can also be differentiated between the sexes by colour or striping pattern, but rusties and yellows are not among those. Though female rusties tend to lack the purple sides that males have this is by no means an absolute. The same goes for the black breast- and anal-fin edges that male yellows have. Some females also have them.
The only surefire way of sexing cichlids is venting.
2 – Venting: Looking at the genital papilla. It is easier with bigger fish, because then the papilla are also bigger. All Mbuna are mouthbrooders, so in females the genital papilla is much larger than in males. (see also this http://www.fishhead.com/articles/ventsex.htm ) Check in particular the top 4 species. All 4 are mouthbrooders. Tropheus moori and Petrochromis trewavasae are from lake Tanganyika, but the same difference can be noted. Pseudotropheus demasoni and Labeotropheus trewavasae are Lake Malawi Mbuna, so they should be good examples of what to look for.

Bagging fish:
If you have to travel long, then ask the shop to bag the fish separately. If it is but a short trip then they will probably be OK in a single bag. When you get home put the bag in the tank for about 15 minutes. Switch off the lights in the tank. Then take a bucket and fill it for about 40% with water from the tank. Open the fishbag and let the fish go into the bucket (together with the water from the shop. Cover the bucket with a blanket or something for another 15 minutes and let the fish adapt to your water. Then grab a net and catch the fish and put them in the tank. Don’t let the water from the bucket go into the tank, because the fish were compressed with only a small amount of water during your travels, which was stressing for them and the water is now probably saturated with stress hormones that you really don’t need in your tank.
Do not feed the fish on a day when you introduce new fish and turn the lights on the next day.

I hope this is helpful for your purchases and if I only repeated stuff that you already knew then just ignore me… ;)


EDIT: Regarding Labidochromis caeruleus "Yellow". Make sure the fish you buy are really yellow. More yellow is better with this species, as whitish fish (or fish with black vertical bars on the side of the body) are strong signs of inbreeding (lower quality fish that get sick more often and generally don't live very long).

[Tubby Rower]

I knew most of that (from reading other stuff), except for the part about selecting specific fish from the tank and the health bit at the top. But the repetition makes it stick in my head ;)

One question though... should I go with the yellows or rustys first? And although you posted the m/f ratio for the acei, rustys and johnannis, there wasn't a recommended ratio for the yellow labs. I think that you indicated a pair, but should I get 2 pair or just 1 m & 1f?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

One question though... should I go with the yellows or rustys first? And although you posted the m/f ratio for the acei, rustys and johnannis, there wasn't a recommended ratio for the yellow labs. I think that you indicated a pair, but should I get 2 pair or just 1 m & 1f?


Yellows are very calm fish. IIRC I indeed said a pair. 1 pair is fine. 2 pairs should also be fine. Yellows are probably the only species of Mbuna that can have more than 1 male in a 55G. If you do get 2 pairs: try to get two males that are about equally sized.
I wouldn't add more than 4 fish total though, considering the slightly high levels of nitrate...

[Tubby Rower]

hmm... something is amiss. I purchased 3 rustys yesterday. (the yellow labs didn't look big enough) I got them hope and floated them for 10-15 minutes and then put them in a 5 gal bucket with 1.5-2 gal of aquarium water for 10-15 minutes, then put them in the aquarium with no bucket water. No food. There was a couple of weird things going on (* see below for odd behavior) Other than that, they seemed fine. The lights were left off until this morning. I did test the water and it only had a KH of 4° and a GH of 6°. Water temp was ~ 78-80°F. The lady at the fish store said that they were living in 11° KH and she doesn't test the GH. This morning 2 of the fish were dead and the 3rd one has a good bit of white spots (Ich by the looks of it). I can't do anything until this afternoon, so I need advice on what to do.

The store has a 7 day return policy on fish priced at this price so I'll be taking them back today. They also want a sample of the water which I'll be taking as well. That really sucks that I killed the first fish, but it wasn't really un-expected as I'm still learning. They do have some "mixed African Cichlids" for &lt; $3 each and am tempted to see if I can trade my dead fish for a few of those so I don't keep killing the expensive fish.

**strange behavior noted... One fish for about 2 seconds was jerky, but after that seemed fine. Another fish was kind of hovering vertically face down for a little while before I went to bed.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

hmm... something is amiss. I purchased 3 rustys yesterday. (the yellow labs didn't look big enough) I got them hope and floated them for 10-15 minutes and then put them in a 5 gal bucket with 1.5-2 gal of aquarium water for 10-15 minutes, then put them in the aquarium with no bucket water. No food. There was a couple of weird things going on (* see below for odd behavior) Other than that, they seemed fine. The lights were left off until this morning. I did test the water and it only had a KH of 4° and a GH of 6°. Water temp was ~ 78-80°F. The lady at the fish store said that they were living in 11° KH and she doesn't test the GH. This morning 2 of the fish were dead and the 3rd one has a good bit of white spots (Ich by the looks of it). I can't do anything until this afternoon, so I need advice on what to do.

The store has a 7 day return policy on fish priced at this price so I'll be taking them back today. They also want a sample of the water which I'll be taking as well. That really sucks that I killed the first fish, but it wasn't really un-expected as I'm still learning. They do have some "mixed African Cichlids" for &lt; $3 each and am tempted to see if I can trade my dead fish for a few of those so I don't keep killing the expensive fish.

**strange behavior noted... One fish for about 2 seconds was jerky, but after that seemed fine. Another fish was kind of hovering vertically face down for a little while before I went to bed.


Ow... That sucks.
Difference in KH and GH is not typically an immediate fish-killer.
pH on the other hand can kill withing minutes. What's your pH and the store's?
Also you might want to check your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate concentrations again (hovering quietly face down is a sign of heavy pollutants in the water). So, are you sure that your water tests function properly?
Other quick killers are heavy metals in the water. Can you check for those?

Do you have a picture of the survivor? Or can you describe what he looks like now?
If that one has Ich then the others, if they came from the same tank at the shop, probably were infected too (and now your tank is also infected)...

[Tubby Rower]

Ok. I planned on taking an hour or two off to take the fish back for a refund, but it turned out a bit different. I came home and got the two dead fish and a container with aquarium water. They tested it and the nitrites were off the chart as were the nitrates. No wonder they died. Unfoutunately both qualify as toxins and make the gaurantee null and void. The other fish didn't have ick. But it was funny watching them go from tank to tank to look for the other fish that were on the same filtration system to see if any had ick. The people at the fish store seemed to think that all it was was a skin reaction to the crazy amounts of nitrites in the water.

So I talked to everyone of the fish employees in the pet store and one was suggesting that I put a nitrate absorber in the filter. Another said to just wait a couple more weeks, then add fish again. Then the lady at the register suggested I talk to another guy upstairs. So I consulted him and he suggested doing a near 100% water change and get some "mixed cichlids" (cheaper, but not necessarily pure-bred) and add a bacteria additive. So I took the last bit of advice since that sounded the most reasonable with my current knowledge. I ended up with 0.25 ppm nitrites & 0 ppm nitrates after the water change. I attribute the insane nitrite levels to the insane ammonia that was in the system last week. Hopefully I removed the vast amount of nitrites before the nitrates went insane on me.

So now I have 5 small yellow lab looking hybrid cichlids. One of them looks like it has been bred with a zebra and Ana has called Bumblebee. So I fully expect at least 3 of these to die. I'll be checking my water again daily whihc means that I'll likely need to get another test kit for nitrates as that has been being consumed rather rapidly.

The last rusty cichlid of the first batch is now in my septic tank as I flushed him rather than put him in the new water. I attempted to get him in there but he was severely struggling and I didn't want him to suffer any longer.

[Tubby Rower]

These new fish are so much more active than the rustys. They seem to race each other up and down the glass. A couple if not all look to be cross-bred, but they were $2 each and will do for my purposes. I did do a 40% water change tonight to keep the nitrites down. ammonia is still 0 and the nitrates are &lt; 5 ppm. The nitrites are going up, so it looks like daily water changes until the nitrite eating bacteria grow up. which according to some of the things that I have seen, should be by this coming weekend.

I now know what Darkness was talking about when he kept saying that some fish wouldn't cooperate with picture taking. These things just didn't stand still. I took ~15-20 pictures and these were the only two that came out anywhere near decent

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007593189_fish2.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/20075932228_fish2.jpg
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[Tubby Rower]

even more good news. All 5 are alive and active this morning when I turned on the light. The nitrite was .5 ppm. I'll likely continue to do 40% water changes to make sure that these stay alive. I don't want Ana to get a complex about fish dying when they come to our aquarium

quote:Originally posted by Darkness

For reference:
Toxic/lethal levels for fish:

Ammonia: 0.17 ppm at pH 8.5 (highly pH dependent. Higher pH means lower lethal levels for ammonia).
Nitrite: 10-20 ppm
Nitrate: 50 ppm

I am unsure which killed the other fish as both nitrite and nitrate levels were about or above the lethal levels that you listed.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

even more good news. All 5 are alive and active this morning when I turned on the light. The nitrite was .5 ppm. I'll likely continue to do 40% water changes to make sure that these stay alive. I don't want Ana to get a complex about fish dying when they come to our aquarium


Good! Seems like a better second try. Keep up the waterchanges, that will make them happy.

Regarding the fish: They are indeed mutts/inbreeds. The whitish parts and black bars on the flanks are telltale signs of inbreeding. Also a hybridization with Labidochromis sp. Mbamba Bay. Labidochrimis sp. Hongi or Metriaclima zebra "red" seems possible.
The one "swimming upwards" on the right of your pictures is nice and yellow withour black bars so he/she could be a pure "Yellow"

On the positive side: activity, clear eyes and stretched out fins are good signs regarding their health!

What killed your other fish was most likely the nitrate and nitrite. If both were above toxic levels, then either one will have killed the fish.

I suggest you keep it like this for a week to ten days with the frequent waterchanges and tests and then see how the fish are at the end of that period...

[Tubby Rower]

the colors of the fish seemed to have changed a bit from what I remember them being yesterday. The one Ana named Bumblebee is now showing the vertical bars more and is turning slightly blue. (You would think that yellow and blue make green, but it's actually a pale yellow and blue iridescence with faint black bars that are getting darker.) Anyhoo.. they were waking up this morning when I fed them and tested the water. I guess they were all sleeping in some of the hiding spots. I was frantically looking all over the aquarium hunting for them all. But they eventually came out once the light was on. I turned it back off before I left for work. I'll try to get some better pictures of the whole lot of them. I actually have 2 that seem more vivid yellow with no bars on them, so I hope that they survive.

[Tubby Rower]

36 hours now and I haven't killed a single fish. They were a bit shy yesterday though. I attribute that to the 50% water which brought the water down to 68°F. I turned up the heater a bit so hopefully the one today won't be such a change for them.

I think that I have 3 males and 2 females. 3 of the fish will display by raising their fins. I actually saw one "males" playing ring around the rosie with one of the "females". Then another "male" came in a broke up the little get-down boogie session. I didn't expect to see that at all since that is the motions that a lot of these fish do when they are spawning. I saw no eggs come out of the female, but still kids having kids... it's just not right.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

36 hours now and I haven't killed a single fish. They were a bit shy yesterday though. I attribute that to the 50% water which brought the water down to 68°F. I turned up the heater a bit so hopefully the one today won't be such a change for them.


That's dangerous! Doing water changes with "new" water at a much lower temperature can induce shock. If your water is at 78-80 degrees then you really better try to do waterchanges with water at about 74-75 degrees. A couple of degrees difference isn't a problem, but 10 degrees difference is very much.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I think that I have 3 males and 2 females. 3 of the fish will display by raising their fins. I actually saw one "males" playing ring around the rosie with one of the "females". Then another "male" came in a broke up the little get-down boogie session. I didn't expect to see that at all since that is the motions that a lot of these fish do when they are spawning. I saw no eggs come out of the female, but still kids having kids... it's just not right.


What size are they? They can start reproducing at about 5-6 cm or so, and they generally max out at 10 cm (males), females stay smaller. Sometimes they go over 10 cm, but that's usually due to bad (too protein-rich) diet...

Your "best" bet at sexing them without venting: Breast fin (and anal fin) colour. Black is most likely male and white is most likely female (unless it is a severely dominated male, but that's unlikely with Yellows)...

[Tubby Rower]

the temp of the water was ~ 72 before the water change. I'm still fooling around with the heater so that I can get the tank's water temp correct. I can add some hot water to get the water that's being added up a little, but I've heard that using hot water from your household water heater isn't a good idea since it's been sitting there absorbing whatever is in the vessel.

[Darkness]

So, how are they doing now?

[Tubby Rower]

I was going to post this morning anyway so here's an update....


I haven't done a water change in 3 days now. The nitrites are steady @ 0.5 ppm whether I did the water change or not. The fish seem pretty happy and are chasing each other around occasionally and often display to each other which is quite neat to watch. I'm not sure if I'm feeding them properly though. I feed them once a day to help me not feed too much. But there are 3 of the 5 that are more brave and eat most of the food before the other 2 can get the nerve to come out of the rocks. I'm hesitant to add more food as that will jest get the more dominate fish fatter.

On that note, the 2 most dominate fish look as though their guts are bigger than the other fish. I noticed last night that they had some light brown feces instead of the black that you mentioned was good. Can I be over-feeding them and under-feeding the 2 most timid fish?

[Darkness]

Unlikely on overfeeding causing brown feces. Brown is also still OK. if it gets very light brown or greyish/white then you're in trouble...

Try to give them no more than they can eat in about 90 seconds.
If you run your hand through the watersurface immediately after feeding then the food should sink faster, giving the two shy ones more chances to get food.

[Tubby Rower]

what about the nitrites? shouldn't they be going up since I haven't been doing a water change. I tested it quite frequently the first few days and it would go down after a water change, but then the next morning it would be hovering right back @ 0.5 ppm. 3 days of no water replacement and it's still @ 0.5 ppm. Shouldn't it go back down to 0 or increasing depending on the size of my bacterial colony?

[Darkness]

Not really. The colony is still forming. But in a month or so, when you've got more fish and a bigger colony (and consequently a very solid ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle) then it should go down to about 0.1 or so...

BTW: Excrement colour can also vary due to food type. What kind of food do you give?

[Tubby Rower]

I have 2 types.. one is vegetable-based little mini-wafers. They're more granules but look like algae-wafers that are ~ 5 mm in diameter. The other is a pellet type food that they gave the fish at the LFS. It has brine shrimp in it and some other stuff. It comes in bulk so it didn't have any ingredients on it, but I trust the girl that recommended it.

I initially gave them the 2nd type, but have transitioned to the veggie granules.


So in your opinion should I be able to add some acei's later this week. Sherry didn't like the rusties so I might skip them.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I have 2 types.. one is vegetable-based little mini-wafers. They're more granules but look like algae-wafers that are ~ 5 mm in diameter. The other is a pellet type food that they gave the fish at the LFS. It has brine shrimp in it and some other stuff. It comes in bulk so it didn't have any ingredients on it, but I trust the girl that recommended it.

I initially gave them the 2nd type, but have transitioned to the veggie granules.


So in your opinion should I be able to add some acei's later this week. Sherry didn't like the rusties so I might skip them.


Considering the fact that you have only Mbuna, I'd recommend giving about 70% vegetable stuff and 30% brine shrimp. So, something like vegetable stuff on monday, tuesday, thursday, friday and saturday and brine shrimp stuff on wednesday and sunday.

BTW: Is this baby brine shrimp of adult brine shrimp? I'm asking because baby brine shrimp is great food, but adult brine shrimp is to fish what junk food is to humans.
Brine shrimp may also be the cause for the lighter excrement.

About adding Acei: Absolutely. Just do a waterchange before you add them and keep monitoring the waterparameters. BTW: With Acei it is especially important to keep the vegetable food percentage high, because Acei have the nasty tendency to grow very big (up to 6 inches)if they are fed a lot of protein. But they are very mellow fish. Make sure you hand select them. Go for good purple bodies and yellow tails (if they have the yellow tail variant that is). Males ate brighter in colour, but venting is the best bet to get a good male-female ratio.

This is a good example of a quality (adult) Acei:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/darkness/200751415121_untitled2.jpg
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A bit more blueish body is also very well possible...

[Tubby Rower]

I'll need to ask about the brine shrimp things. They aren't completely brine shrimp though.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I'll need to ask about the brine shrimp things. They aren't completely brine shrimp though.


For further reference: The problem with adult brine shrimp is that they are basically protein bombs. They contain nothing but protein. No fibers, no vitamin, etc.
And considering the long intestinal tract of Mbuna it means that adult brine shrimp can start rotting in their bellies, which is one of the biggest causes for the worst disease of them all: Malawi bloat (als known als Tropheus bloat)...

[Tubby Rower]

ok I had one of the 2nd 5 die this afternoon. It made it a week, but there was always one fish that wasn't eating. I could tell what was wrong with it, but the skin looked really thin and I tried to press the gut area and before I could even put any pressure, it's guts squirted out. There was a little white patch about the size of a pin tip behind it's gills on one side. I just chucked it. I'm a little leary about putting the acei in there tomorrow. The other 4 are boisterous and all 4 feed very vociferously. 3 of them always have, but the 4th is starting to gain vigor. The dead fish was floating and it looks like the other fish had been nibbling on the corpse. Freaking zombies !!! Anyhoo... nitrites steady @ 0.5 ppm; nitrates slightly increasing @ 5ppm; ammonia @ 0ppm; pH @ 8.0; KH @ 6-7°KH.

So what's the cocensus on me getting new fish for the tank? I have two theories as to what killed the fish. One was that the fish was being intimidated so much that it never ate and died of stress and starvation. Two is that the fish died from a fungal something or other. And I guess there is always 3... my stupidity killed it just for spite. If it's 1. then adding more fish should alleviate stress on any individual and thus prevent future losses. If it's 2. then adding more fish would jeopardize the new (more expensive) fish and tick me off. If it's 3.... well all of the fish are doomed!!

[Darkness]

Considering the death of the fish, I'd wait a week and observe carefully. If you see all remaining 4 eating and behaving actively then you should be fine to add a new species next week.

[Furiey]

Sometimes just the stress from the move from the shop to your tank can be enough to lose a fish. Best to make sure these have settled and wait another week before adding more though. Patience grasshopper!

[Tubby Rower]

I still think that my stupidity killed it. I'm going to be a little more patient than I was last week as my tank at least has live fish in it as opposed to about a week ago.

[Tubby Rower]

Ok.. I got some decent pictures of the other 4 fish...

Here is the fish that Ana calls Bumblebee. he's a mutt, but he's the dominate fish in the tank. As you can see in a picture or two there is some blue iridescence.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200751814158_bumblebee.jpg
29.24KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141514_bumblebee_a.jpg
25.53KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141520_bumblebee_b.jpg
43.59KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141525_bumblebee_blue.jpg
27.09KB



Here is bumblebee with one of the yellows
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141536_duel.jpg
50.97KB

The yellows are a little more shy and they seem to be peeking at me at times to see what I'm doing.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141542_I_see_you.jpg
31.66KB

This fish sleeps here I think. He didn't budge for quite a while
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141548_sleepy.jpg
36.88KB

Here are some pitures of the yellows that I could get. I'm not sure if they are duplicate fish or different ones as the 3 under Bumblebee look similar except for one that doesn't have quite the black on the dorsal fine as the other two do.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141559_yellow1.jpg
38.11KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200751814166_yellow2.jpg
42.59KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141611_yellow3.jpg
41.57KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007518141617_yellow4.jpg
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[Darkness]

"Bumblebee" is a cross between a Labidochromis caeruleus and a Labidochromis sp. "perlmutt"...
The others look pretty OK to me.

The one without the black dorsal, is he smaller than the others? The black dorsal sometimes comes a bit later in some fish, or he might just be a bit further removed from wildcaught fish.

[Tubby Rower]

he is a bit smaller. not much though.

What's neat is that they typically will be displaying throughout the day but if they see you walking by, they'll all go hide. Except when I come home from work. Then they hear me going into the cabinet below to get the food and they'll all 4 run about like mad.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

What's neat is that they typically will be displaying throughout the day but if they see you walking by, they'll all go hide. Except when I come home from work. Then they hear me going into the cabinet below to get the food and they'll all 4 run about like mad.



They're just a bit nervous still...
3 things will change that:
- The longer they are in the tank, the more they'll get used to you walking around.
- Bigger fish are less nervous. Whenever I get near my breeding tank when I get home from work the young C. afra's all hide, but in the big tank they all start begging for food the moment they see me.
- More fish in the tank will increase their bravery. As soon as you've added a few more fish, they'll show themselves more. They kind of dare eachother out of the rocks.

[Tubby Rower]

I stopped by the LFS today and was planning on getting 4 acei's. But the ones they had had either a fungus on them or ick. So I just window shopped. While doing so, I noticed that a lot of their fish looked emaciated. Their gut looked absent. Mine look full. Am I doing something wrong or are they?

Also Darkness & Furiey, since I'm not going to be getting rusty's anymore, is there another species that you guys would recommend? I like the afras, salousis, and trewasaes. Is there anything about these that make them hard to keep or to keep with johannis, yellows & aceis?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I stopped by the LFS today and was planning on getting 4 acei's. But the ones they had had either a fungus on them or ick. So I just window shopped. While doing so, I noticed that a lot of their fish looked emaciated. Their gut looked absent. Mine look full. Am I doing something wrong or are they?


They are doing things wrong.
Emaciated fish are either infected by worms or seriously underfed. Guts should look full.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Also Darkness & Furiey, since I'm not going to be getting rusty's anymore, is there another species that you guys would recommend? I like the afras, salousis, and trewasaes. Is there anything about these that make them hard to keep or to keep with johannis, yellows & aceis?


I reckon you mean Cynotilapia afra, Pseudotropheus saulosi and Labeotropheus trewavasae?

Afra's or Trewavasae's should be doable. 1 male and 2-3 females. I would not recommed Saulosi's. They are not extremely aggressive, but Saulosi males are very similar looking to Yellows, which while it will not lead to cross-breeding, will generate tension between the Yellow male(s) and the Saulosi male.

[Furiey]

Yep, a hollow belly is a sign of disease/parasites or starvation. If they have just been imported they will not have been fed for a while to prevent them polluting the water they are transported in and hence dieing. Sometimes the fish take a while to recover and eat properly again, but I have noticed that many shops keep the fish very lighty fed anyway to reduce the cost of food and the time needed to keep the tanks clean. Pick your fish carefully just in case it is worms or disease as you don't want to introduce parasites into your tank or have more of the fish die when you introduce them.

[Tubby Rower]

I think that they get their fish from Florida which is ~ 24 hour drive straight through. So it's likely a long shipment if not done by air.

Thanks for the info you two :D

[Furiey]

I'm finding this thread very interesting, you never know, I may decide to convert my tank to a Malawi set up!

[Tubby Rower]

I talked to the people at the LFS yesterday and asked them why some of the fish's stomachs were caved in just to see what they would say. And they said that the distributer doesn't take care of them as good as they do so it takes them a while before they get their stomachs full again. Which I guess that makes sense since I read somewhere that you should fast the fish before shipment... but some of those fish have been there a while so something smells fishy. I'm going to talk to the guy that orders the fish today. Jerry Falwell's funeral is @ 1pm and they'll be blocking streets so I'm heading home at noon to miss all of that traffic. Apparently the hotels have been booked up since last Thursday.

I went to another mom & pop shop and they had some little itty bitty M. Lombardis. They were so freaking cute. I asked the girl if they would be ok with my yellows (and I indicated the size of my fish to her) and she said no. That store only had like one of every species which sucks because they'd have to special order everything that I wanted. It turns out that both stores get their stock from the same wholesaler.

[Tubby Rower]

I also found out that the fish wholesaler is in North Carolina which is considerably less time in shipping (~1-3 hours depending on location in the state) so that's better than the trip from Florida

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


I went to another mom & pop shop and they had some little itty bitty M. Lombardis. They were so freaking cute.

They'll get big. At least 6 inches. And they can be very nasty.

Have you considered trying to find some local breeders? Quite often hobbyists have better quality fish than LFS. At the very least they will most likely be better cared for...

[Tubby Rower]

what about Ps. socolofi??
http://cichlidforum.com/tradingpost/detail.php?id=12537
quote:For Sale F/S Ps. socolofi fry (blue)
Pseudotropheus soclofi (blue) fry. about 40 all between 1/2" and 3/4" at the moment and growing fast. $2.00 each or 10 for $15. Picture is of the father. He is still young, just about 9 months old.

I have never shipped before so I prefer pick-up. I will drive a bit too. I will try to ship if really needed. He lives about 3.5 hours away and I wouldn't mind taking the trip.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

what about Ps. socolofi??
http://cichlidforum.com/tradingpost/detail.php?id=12537
quote:For Sale F/S Ps. socolofi fry (blue)
Pseudotropheus soclofi (blue) fry. about 40 all between 1/2" and 3/4" at the moment and growing fast. $2.00 each or 10 for $15. Picture is of the father. He is still young, just about 9 months old.

I have never shipped before so I prefer pick-up. I will drive a bit too. I will try to ship if really needed. He lives about 3.5 hours away and I wouldn't mind taking the trip.


Scolofi are a good choice. Pretty fish. I have them too. Not too aggressive either.
The picture of the father is very nice. Very good quality fish. Good non-blotched blue colour. Nice and stump forehead (pointy head is another sign of inbreeding).

2 drawbacks:
- You'll have to take one fish of the list. More than 4 species in your tank would be risky, IMHO.
- At that size they'll be impossible to sex, so you'll have to get more. I'd recommend getting (if he still has that much) the 10 for 15 dollar deal. That way you'll be able to see them grow and select the ones you want to keep when they've grown. You can then just sell of give away the spares to the LFS. And then you'll still be cheaper off, considering then you'll have 1m/3f or something for 15 dollars, which you'll never find in any store.

[Tubby Rower]

so they're not too small for my tank with the current fish being ~ 2-2.5" (5-6.5 cm)

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

so they're not too small for my tank with the current fish being ~ 2-2.5" (5-6.5 cm)


No. Mbuna only eat newly born fry. If they are getting above 1.5-2 cm then they should be fine... Females tend to grow slower than males, so don't go for all big ones.

[Tubby Rower]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


I went to another mom & pop shop and they had some little itty bitty M. Lombardis. They were so freaking cute.
I went there today on my way home and noticed that I had things mixed up in my head... They were Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752220752_Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos.jpg
16.3KB. They were priced @ $3.99 each and I was hesitant to get them and then the girl told me that tomorrow is buy one get one free day. So I'll go back tomorrow and get 6 and hope that I don't get all males or all females. $12 for 6 fish isn't that bad

[Furiey]

I wish I could get fish that cheaply in the UK, I'd have to pay that much for Neon Tetras!

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


I went to another mom & pop shop and they had some little itty bitty M. Lombardis. They were so freaking cute.
I went there today on my way home and noticed that I had things mixed up in my head... They were Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752220752_Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos.jpg
16.3*KB. They were priced @ $3.99 each and I was hesitant to get them and then the girl told me that tomorrow is buy one get one free day. So I'll go back tomorrow and get 6 and hope that I don't get all males or all females. $12 for 6 fish isn't that bad


Pretty fish. I have them too.
2 things about M. cyaneorhabdos:
- The males can be quite aggressive.
- Difference between sexes is quite hard to see.

When buying them, make absolutely sure you select the fish. If at all possible, leave the largest and most aggressive fish at the LFS. If you can try picking one very dark specimin (very black, with bright blue bars) and 5 lighter fish (greyish black, with less bright blue bars). The dark one is certainly a male, and the lighter ones will either be females or suppressed males. Without venting, this species is almost impossible to sex.
If you turn out to have more than one male, you will most likely have to remove the excess males later on, because they will not tolerate eachother.

[Tubby Rower]

I ended up only getting 5 of them instead of 6. The cichlid guy stated that the rift lakes are semi-brackish not freshwater and therefore don't qualify for the buy one get one free deal. HE did knock a dollar off of each one so I paid $15 fo 5. I also asked him about the socolofi and he said that the price that I'd pay with shipping is a little less than what he'd charge. I'm planning on getting the $10 for $15 deal next week or the week after.

The M. cyaneorhabdos were pretty neat to watch from the tank at the LFS to my tank. They went from distinctly colorful to super pale back to colorful. Granted they aren't as colorful as they were in the store but I also still have my lights off.

Also on a uber-cool note... my tank is completely cycled. I have 0 nitrites and 10 ppm nitrates after the 15% water change before adding the fish tonight. I checked the hardness and the KH is 7° and the GH is ~ 9° so I added some more buffer. My pH is ~8-8.2. So I'm ready to learn how not to kill fish [dance]

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I ended up only getting 5 of them instead of 6. The cichlid guy stated that the rift lakes are semi-brackish not freshwater and therefore don't qualify for the buy one get one free deal.


What a complete load of utter bullshit. Considering I have water with lake Malawi waterparameters (pH 8, KH 10, GH 11) coming straight from my tap, that would mean that Dutch watercompanies provide brackish water, instead of freshwater... [rolleyes]

Brackish water is where rivers enter the sea, etc.

Still, 5 for $15 is a fine price. Now just hope that there are at least 2-3 females among them.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Also on a uber-cool note... my tank is completely cycled. I have 0 nitrites and 10 ppm nitrates after the 15% water change before adding the fish tonight. I checked the hardness and the KH is 7° and the GH is ~ 9° so I added some more buffer. My pH is ~8-8.2. So I'm ready to learn how not to kill fish [dance]


[goodjob]

[Rik Meleet]

quote:Originally posted by Furiey

I wish I could get fish that cheaply in the UK, I'd have to pay that much for Neon Tetras!

And they'll still charge you extra for the chips that go with it ?

[Robboo]

The guy at the fish store is simply wrong. Those lakes are not brackish...take that from a Aquatic and fisheries Biologist. He just needs to not feed you BS and tell you they are not included.

Also those fish would die in truly brackish water...

[Tubby Rower]

I realize that, but I didn't really feel like arguing with a self-proclaimed cichlid expert. Next time, I'll just have an encyclopedia with me to prove him wrong or get someone else to help me :) He did give me a price break from $4 to $3. So I still got 25% off instead of 50%. Plus I was wondering if 6 was too many seeing that next week I'll be getting 10 socolofis of the same size. I'll likely hold off on the 4th species until these others grow up some and just get a Synodontis ocellifer or two.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I realize that, but I didn't really feel like arguing with a self-proclaimed cichlid expert. Next time, I'll just have an encyclopedia with me to prove him wrong or get someone else to help me :) He did give me a price break from $4 to $3. So I still got 25% off instead of 50%. Plus I was wondering if 6 was too many seeing that next week I'll be getting 10 socolofis of the same size. I'll likely hold off on the 4th species until these others grow up some and just get a Synodontis ocellifer or two.


The 10 Scolofi's will be fine, but:

Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT put S. ocellifer in your Mbuna tank!

3 reasons:
1. S. ocellifer is from West Afrika. Which means lower pH and hardness than Mbuna prefer
2. S. ocellifer is an omnivore, with a preference towards meat. Which would clash with you Mbuna, who need more green than meat.
3. S. ocellifer reaches 8 inches, which would be very big for your tank (especially considering almost all Synodontis are fish better kept in groups of 4-5 or more).

That said: I love Synodontis species in Rift lake tanks. Excellent cleaners, but in a 55 Gallon tank with Mbuna you are basically limited to 2 species (both from Lake Tanganyika, which has very similar water parameters to Lake Malawi): S. lucipinnnis and S. petricola. The first reaches maybe 3.5 inches, the second perhaps an inch more.

How to recognize these: Very simple. S. lucipinnis and S. petricola are the only Synodontis species that have leading white bands on both their dorsal and breast fins, followed the rest of the fin which is totally black. Any spots in these fins (with these two species) indicate hybrids.

BTW: also keep these in a group of 4-5 otherwise they are very, very shy.

[Tubby Rower]

well the new fish have taken to the aquarium nicely... They all got their color back as soon as they were in their new home. I still have 9 fish so I'm happy :) The were skittish a little bit this morning but they have been wondering about ever since with no signs of aggression from the larger yellows

here are some pictures of them


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513547_downloaded 5-24-07 150.jpg
76.95KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513556_downloaded 5-24-07 151.jpg
73.04KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513613_downloaded 5-24-07 153.jpg
71.35KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513622_downloaded 5-24-07 154.jpg
73.68KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513631_downloaded 5-24-07 156.jpg
71.24KB

[Tubby Rower]

One other thing that I've recently noticed is that two of the more yellow ones seem to have some spots on their tails. I was worried that it was ick (see death of a trio earlier in the thread), but upon closer review, I believe that it is some cross-breeding coming out in them. Bumble bee has definate signs with the blue hue and vertical bars. These spots seem to be blue iridesence. I'll keep a close eye on them. There is one very yellow one that doesn't have any blue or spots or bars.. but the black along his/her dorsal fin is muted sadly.


The M. cyaneorhabdosalmost looks like the tail fins have been chewed on... but they are fine. It's just that the color hasn't reached the tip of the fin yet. I'm hoping that as they get bigger they'll look more like the picture above. btw, how quick are these things supposed to grow?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/200752513613_downloaded 5-24-07 153.jpg
71.35*KB


Female on the left, male on the right. There is no way a dominant male Melanochromis would allow a sub-dominant male so close in a decorated tank.

Regarding the tail-fins. Get used to it. They always do that. Very high aggression towards their own species. In my tank only the male has an undamaged tail-fin. As long as you don't see any fungus or severely frayed fin-ends there should not be a problem.

[Tubby Rower]

yeah.. I think that I have 2 females and 3 males. At the store only one of them was really back, but in my tank 3 of them have the same darkness (if you don't mind me using your alias).

And the tail fins aren't frayed... they just appeared frayed... It is a solid fin but the edge of it is still transparent.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

yeah.. I think that I have 2 females and 3 males. At the store only one of them was really back, but in my tank 3 of them have the same darkness (if you don't mind me using your alias).



Coloring at the store can never be really compared to your own tank. Just keep a close eye on them, and as soon as your sure about the male/female ratio, remove the excess males (return them to the store)...

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

And the tail fins aren't frayed... they just appeared frayed... It is a solid fin but the edge of it is still transparent.


That's just fine. Normal really.

[Tubby Rower]

quote:: I love Synodontis species in Rift lake tanks. Excellent cleaners, but in a 55 Gallon tank with Mbuna you are basically limited to 2 species (both from Lake Tanganyika, which has very similar water parameters to Lake Malawi): S. lucipinnnis and S. petricola. The first reaches maybe 3.5 inches, the second perhaps an inch more.

What about the upside down catfish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodontis_nigriventris)? I know that these are carried by at least one of the pet stores. I'm not sure about the S. lucipinnnis or the S. petricola. I like the S. petricola though, but the upside-down catfish is pretty unique.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

quote:: I love Synodontis species in Rift lake tanks. Excellent cleaners, but in a 55 Gallon tank with Mbuna you are basically limited to 2 species (both from Lake Tanganyika, which has very similar water parameters to Lake Malawi): S. lucipinnnis and S. petricola. The first reaches maybe 3.5 inches, the second perhaps an inch more.

What about the upside down catfish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodontis_nigriventris)? I know that these are carried by at least one of the pet stores. I'm not sure about the S. lucipinnnis or the S. petricola. I like the S. petricola though, but the upside-down catfish is pretty unique.



Sorry, also a West-African species, which likes low pH and low hardness.

BTW: The only differences between S. lucipinnis and S. petricola is that the spots in S. lucipinnis are a bit more irregular and that it stays a bit smaller. In behaviour etc., they are very, very similar. BTW: All Synodontis species are known to swim upside-down occasionally. Mine do it all the time...

[Tubby Rower]

I'm having trouble finding the S. lucipinnnis and S. petricola. Are there any other species you'd recommend. I have a couple of places checking to see if they could get them. But I'm unsure as to how much they'd even cost.

[Whomp]

You guys are too cool. Fun read.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I'm having trouble finding the S. lucipinnnis and S. petricola. Are there any other species you'd recommend. I have a couple of places checking to see if they could get them. But I'm unsure as to how much they'd even cost.


Most Synodontis species get pretty big. The only other recommendations would be Synodontis polli and it's geographical variant Synodontis polli "White Zambia". Both get a bit bigger than S. lucipinnis and S. petricola (they max out at about 5 inches).
All other Rift lake Syno's grow to about 7-8 inches or more and non-Rift lake Syno's can't handle the high pH.

BTW: In just about every store I've ever vistited Synodontis species are misnamed. Look for the leading white edges in the breast and dorsal fins. If the fish have these and the rest of the breast and dorsal fin is pure black, then you are 100% sure it is either S. lucipinnis or S. petricola. No other Synodontis species has this fin colouring.

[Tubby Rower]

I still couldn't find any after looking at every fish in 3 stores. I asked one how much they'd be and he said ~ $30 and that's why they don't keep them. I ended up buying one upside-down cat and will likely get some more if he survives a month or so.

My Ps. socolofi should be getting here this morning. They were shipped yesterday and hopefully within 4 hours they'll be at the house and I'll run home from work to acclimate them. She threw in a "couple extra" in case any were lost in transit. I'm not sure if "couple" means exactly two or if she just drug the net through the tank a few times and got a few extra without counting. I'll try to get some pictures.

[Tubby Rower]

well the address on the FedEx package had a zip code for N. Virginia (the origin) So it didn't get here yesterday. The girl shipping them went and picked them up during her lunch yesterday and put them back in the tank. She re-shipped them today and should be here tomorrow. She said that they didn't look stressed at all. So tomorrow I should be getting them. I called FedEx to confirm that they were at least coming here and they verified that the destination zip code is 24551 (mine). ;)

[Furiey]

Have they settled in OK?

[Tubby Rower]

yeah. I thought that I had posted pictures here. I'll have to post them when I get home... after I play King Reno's PBEM. A couple things happened after I added them. I didn't move the large rock formation mainly as it would have looked about the same since I don't have a lot of larger flat rocks for the base of the structure... so a couple of the M. cyan.... decided to keep their territory more or less. Well one of them was very tiny and started to show colors for the first time and defend that plot of substrate. well about 3 days later I saw his headless body lying on the bottom.

another thing is that catfish died. I know I know I was told..... he was missing an eye when I netted him out. not sure if that was postmortem or not.

Also I'm getting a nice coat of algae on my rocks which the fish seem to enjoy picking at.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

so a couple of the M. cyan.... decided to keep their territory more or less. Well one of them was very tiny and started to show colors for the first time and defend that plot of substrate. well about 3 days later I saw his headless body lying on the bottom.


Unfortunate, but that at least means you have a dominant male around and at least one female. The males don't usually fight if there are no females around, as there is no reason to gain dominance...

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

another thing is that catfish died. I know I know I was told..... he was missing an eye when I netted him out. not sure if that was postmortem or not.


It was most likely postmortem. They always seem to go for they eyes first.

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

Also I'm getting a nice coat of algae on my rocks which the fish seem to enjoy picking at.


If it's green algae then that's good news. That means that your water parameters are fine.

[Tubby Rower]

it's more brown as that was the kind that was on the rocks before I scrubbed them until they smelled like they were burning. Then I soaked them.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

it's more brown as that was the kind that was on the rocks before I scrubbed them until they smelled like they were burning. Then I soaked them.


Starters' algae then... ;)

Don't do anything about it. No fancy chemical products, no scrubbing rocks. It should fade and be replaced by green algae in 2-3 months. This is all part of the natural start-up of a Malawi/Tanganyika tank. I had the same thing in mine...

[Tubby Rower]

I wasn't worried about it. It made the THR look like it fits in the schema more. :D

[Tubby Rower]

I lost another M. cyaneorhabdos. It was the loner. I think that he had the best coloration, but I guess he didn't have anyone to have is back. His eyes looked as though they had cataracts in it. I'm not sure how long he was dead before I found him but he was active at feeding time 2 days ago.

[Tubby Rower]

OK.. I re-arranged the tank last weekend. The back of the tank and the left side has algae on it and I think that I'm going to leave it as it as some darkness to the tank and a little extra dimension to it.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007822133623_tank_overview1.jpg
60.04KB


This is a hole that one of the Ps. socolofi digs out. Its on the left side of the tank. I've leveled it out a few times and he (I assume he's male) will have a good start on another pit by the next day.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007822133653_fish_hole.jpg
83.34KB


Here is a couple of pictures of the fish. It's the same group of fish. The yellow fish are extremely shy. The 2 M. cyaneorhabdos will likely be a breeding pair if they ever start to get busy. I have a 3rd M. cyaneorhabdos but it stays on the other side of the tank.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007822133633_fishes1.jpg
80.46KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Tubby Rower/2007822133643_fishes2.jpg
105.16KB



I do have a couple of questions for Darkness/Furiey/anyone else who knows...

1. Should I get another M. cyaneorhabdos (female) to make a breeding group instead of a pair?

2. I cleaned out my filter last night and when I started it back up a bunch of white fiber-looking things came out. I got out my net and swiped most of them up. But the net had a green tint to it. The same thing happened last time too. I made sure I rinsed every part of the filter out before putting it back together, but it still happened. What is this stuff and is it harmful? I saw a couple of fish eat a piece or two and they didn't spit it out, so I'm wondering if it was just algae stands in the line that broke free after the constant water flow was stopped for a few minutes.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I do have a couple of questions for Darkness/Furiey/anyone else who knows...

1. Should I get another M. cyaneorhabdos (female) to make a breeding group instead of a pair?

2. I cleaned out my filter last night and when I started it back up a bunch of white fiber-looking things came out. I got out my net and swiped most of them up. But the net had a green tint to it. The same thing happened last time too. I made sure I rinsed every part of the filter out before putting it back together, but it still happened. What is this stuff and is it harmful? I saw a couple of fish eat a piece or two and they didn't spit it out, so I'm wondering if it was just algae stands in the line that broke free after the constant water flow was stopped for a few minutes.


1. Counterquestion: How well does the male tolerate the female? If he tolerates her just fine then you shouldn't add another female, as this might change the bond between the other fish as well. If he doesn't tolerate her well then it would be best to add 1-2 more females.

2. just dirt or algae remains. It isn't harmful. That is just the consequence of the waterflow boost when you restart the filter. It's just dirt pushed loose.

Tank looks very nice. Very pretty Scolofi, IMHO.

[Tubby Rower]

counteranswer: Yeah they seem to be cool with each other. So I'll hold off getting another for now.

Next time I clean the filter, I'll make sure that my net is covering the exit nozzle so that it doesn't go all over the place.

I sent these pictures to the girl that I bought the socolofi from and mentioned the diggers that they are. She replied back stating that the father was a "big earth mover" and that the mother also dug quite a bit.


One other question... .When do these guys start to breed? How do I know when they are sexually mature? I was just scrolling back to some other pages showing some guys here at work the progression of my tank and the only fish that seem to have not grown much is the yellow fish-mutts. The M. cyaneorhabdos have over doubled in size and the Ps. socolofi have significantly increased in size as well. I almost wish the yellows would die so I could get some pure-bred fish in there. (Sounding like Slitheren now [lol])

quote:Tank looks very nice. Very pretty Scolofi, IMHO.thanks that means a lot :)

[Tubby Rower]

I bought three small yellow labs. I shuffled the rocks around a little bit and now the larger yellows come out more. I can't believe how big they've gotten!!! The freaks have been scaredy cats and have been getting big on me. I'm gonna attempt to upload a video of them to youtube this weekend if I get a chance (which usually means it'll happen within a month [:p]

I found a site that is sort of like ebay but for fish stuff (aquabid.com) They had some S. petricola on there. Although the local fish store had S. eupterus in stock for ~ $4.5. I'm sort of thinking of getting one of them instead of the high priced perticolas. I have yet to find S. lucipinnnis

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


One other question... .When do these guys start to breed? How do I know when they are sexually mature? I was just scrolling back to some other pages showing some guys here at work the progression of my tank and the only fish that seem to have not grown much is the yellow fish-mutts. The M. cyaneorhabdos have over doubled in size and the Ps. socolofi have significantly increased in size as well. I almost wish the yellows would die so I could get some pure-bred fish in there. (Sounding like Slitheren now [lol])


Breeding should start at about 3 inches. Smaller can happen too, but that's not very common.

[Tubby Rower]

I've been going in the chat room at cichlid-forum.com and talking to some folks and doubt has been cast on how much filtration I have. With the large Eheim Ecco filter, I'm getting ~ 160 gal/hour (600 l/h). With my 55 gal (200 l) tank, I'm basically getting the water turned over 3 times per hour. Some of those guys over there have suggestion 10x as a goal. My chemistry is great right now, but I'm concerned about when the fish get bigger it might not be. My ultimate goal is to get a bigger filter for this tank and use my Ecco on a smaller tank (yet to be purchased).

So I'm asking you guys, how do you know if you have enough filtration? I understand that the more is better, but $$ is a bit tight for a $300 filter and I'd rather not get one right now unless I had to. Also how often should I be cleaning the filter? I've cleaned it twice since I started it up in May and both times it's been a lot of junk in there. I'll definately clean it before I leave for a business trip in a couple of weeks.

[failedreality]

I miss my African Cichlid tank ;( boohoo
I have a 30gal, and when I moved from washington to texas, I sold all my fish. I had yellow labs and ps. demonsani (sp?)
They were awesome. My yellows also had 14 fry once which sold nicely...

Can't wait to set up my tank again..

By the way the tank has a very nice setup - Looks good

[Tubby Rower]

If you would like some P. socolofi, I'll likely be getting rid of some of mine as I have 13 currently and I read somewhere that more than 2 males in a 55gal would inhibit breeding. So I could send you some when you get things set up if you want them. I'm currently looking at getting either Hongis or Trewavasaes or a few synodots cats. MAybe 2 out of the 3 in that list. But I don't want to add many more fish to what I have now... and I'll likely need more filtration before them too.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I've been going in the chat room at cichlid-forum.com and talking to some folks and doubt has been cast on how much filtration I have. With the large Eheim Ecco filter, I'm getting ~ 160 gal/hour (600 l/h). With my 55 gal (200 l) tank, I'm basically getting the water turned over 3 times per hour. Some of those guys over there have suggestion 10x as a goal. My chemistry is great right now, but I'm concerned about when the fish get bigger it might not be. My ultimate goal is to get a bigger filter for this tank and use my Ecco on a smaller tank (yet to be purchased).

So I'm asking you guys, how do you know if you have enough filtration? I understand that the more is better, but $$ is a bit tight for a $300 filter and I'd rather not get one right now unless I had to. Also how often should I be cleaning the filter? I've cleaned it twice since I started it up in May and both times it's been a lot of junk in there. I'll definately clean it before I leave for a business trip in a couple of weeks.


Your filtration situation is fine. There is no need to change. Of course more filtration is better, but 3 times water turnover per hour is fine. Whe the fish get bigger and if you have a lot of fish, then you could consider buying a bigger filter, not IMHO it is not neccessary to do so at this time.

10x turnover per hour is perhaps excessive (I've never heard it reccommended here in The Netherlands), but some fish do require more filtration than others, due to fragility and succeptibility to diseases. Fish like Xenotilapia sp. and Tropheus sp. come to mind as examples...

[Tubby Rower]

Oh my... I have been gone for 15 days during November and I come back from this last trip to South Carolina (last of 3 this month) and find tonight that one of my Ps. socolofi is pregnant. I'm actually surprised as there are at least 3 fish that are bigger than this one. Only one of them have 3 egg spots. I'm not sure who the father is but I have narrowed it down to two of them.

For those of you who don't know what it looks like, here are a couple of pictures. These fish are mouth-brooders and carry the eggs in their mouth until they have hatched and are basically too big to fit in there any more. Or she gets tired of them and evicts them


This is the prgnant fish
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/tubby rower/200711272491_preggers.jpg
43.18KB

here is another fish next to her. just to show you what the jaw looks like in normal individuals
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/tubby rower/200711272498_compare.jpg
41.58KB

[Darkness]

Yep, she's breeding... :)

[Furiey]

Congratulations! I hope she keeps some, I love watching them shepherd about their broods.

[Tubby Rower]

well that female is now holding in a little floating fry thingie. I tried stripping her this past weekend and I failed (luckily) because one did come out and he still had a significant egg-sac.

in other news, Tubby's poisson brothel has opened up. I saw last night I have another socolofi holding. This one is a bit bigger. But still I'm starting to get worried about only having a 55 gal.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

well that female is now holding in a little floating fry thingie. I tried stripping her this past weekend and I failed (luckily) because one did come out and he still had a significant egg-sac.

in other news, Tubby's poisson brothel has opened up. I saw last night I have another socolofi holding. This one is a bit bigger. But still I'm starting to get worried about only having a 55 gal.


[lecture mode]
Whilst stripping mouthbrooders is common practice in the US, it is frowned upon in Europe. There is no valid reason to do this, other than a commercial one (stripping means the mom will start eating again sooner, which means she'll get into breeding condition sooner, and will consequently produce more batches fry, which means the breeder can sell more fish).

Plenty of arguments have been made to advocate stripping, the chiefest among those: "I strip because it isn't good for the female to go a month without eating." Which is utter bullshit of course, considering wild fish also do it, and they have been programmed by several million years of evolution. If "mother nature" has devised this way of reproducing for mouthbrooding cichlids, why does mankind feel the need to improve this? The natural way works just fine. I've had mouthbrooders hold for 40 days, and they were just fine afterwards.

Arguments against stripping include: Stress. The fish will be severely stressed when it is picked up and someone starts prying open her mouth with a finger. The fish will do everything in its' power to keep its' mouth shut, so excessive force may result in broken fish jaws...

[/lecture mode]

Good news about the brothel... ;)
If I were you I'd just let them swim and release the young in the main tank. Some fry will survive. If you don't have any big-time predators (and IIRC you do not), then it'll be a prime example of 'survival of the fittes', so the 'best' young fish will survive.

[Tubby Rower]

My wife lectured me about trying to "help" the 1st one out. So I'm not planning on doing that again. (But thanks for the reminder ;) )

I'm going to keep the 1st mommy in the floating fry thingie until she spits. I'd like to see what happens and watch everything that I can. The other mom is going to stay in the tank because I had to extract all but 2 of my rocks to catch the 1st one and it's not worth it to me. I'm already trying to find the little buggers a good home.

I do have a question... I have 13 Ps. socolofi, 3 M. cyaneorhabdos and 3 yellow labs and 3 yellowish hybrids. Is this too much for a 55 gal? (48" long) The 3 yellow hybrids are being tortured by the large (~ 4") yellow lab king. I wouldn't be too heart broken if I had to get rid of them but they were the first fish that survivied in my tank... so at the same time, I'd like to keep them. Would more hidey holes be better? The thing is that the king seems to have claimed the whole tank not just one section. Some of the socolofi are starting to fight him off so maybe he'll be knocked down a few pegs in the near future.

[Darkness]

More hidey holes is always better. Make seperate stacks of rocks in an attempt to seperate territories.

You now have 22 adults in a 55. While this is a bit much, it is not excessively so. You should be fine, but if it were me I'd remove the 3 hybrids. That way, if the Yellows start spawning you are sure about the 'purity' of the offspring. Also they really don't add anything to the tank. The real yellows add the yellow color. All the hybrids do is disappoint, because they aren't as pretty as the yellows.

So the yellow is king of the tank? Odd. Yellows are really mellow fish. How big is the Cyaneorhabdos male? Because if it is fullgrown, it should push the yellow around. Or maybe you have an uncommonly docile M. cyaneorhabdos? Scolofi's are tougher than Yellows, but M. cyaneorhabdos is the toughest one you have (in theory anyway)...

[Tubby Rower]

The cyaneorhabdos is ~ 3". I'm not sure which are male/female. They all have just 1 or 2 egg spots. While I realize that females can have them and male can lack them, since they are from the same batch of fry, they likely have the same genes and should be comparable with eggspots. The other thing is that they were only ~ 1" when I got them. They do fight for their territory but don't dominate like the yellow does

The yellow has at least an inch on anything other than hybrids. (btw, the hybrids look emaciated. One of them has some damage to it's left eye. What's the best way to get rid of them? just flush them?)

[Darkness]

But one of the Cyaneorhabdos is much darker than the others, right? The darkest one should be the male. Maybe you just have a very mellow Cyaneorhabdos and a very tough Yellow? [crazyeye]


quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower


The yellow has at least an inch on anything other than hybrids. (btw, the hybrids look emaciated. One of them has some damage to it's left eye. What's the best way to get rid of them? just flush them?)


Try to gift them to the LFS, that's what I always try to do.


But if that doesn't work then euthenization methods can be applied.
Flushing is actually not a very good method. Neither is the second most popular killing method: Freezing. With both methods it takes quite a bit of time for the fish to die

When killing fish: Faster = Better. This means less stress and shorter period of pain for the fish.

Options (just listing, not suggesting anything):
1 - clove oil (narcotic induced death. Basically just adding some clove oil to a bucket of aquariumwater (0.5 ml oil in 1 litre of water). Add the fish. Fast and fairly painless death).
2 - Hitting them with something hard (quick acting neccessary. Catch fish, put it in a plastic bag, and sqaush the bagged fish with a brick).
3. Decapitation (catch fish. Sever spine with sharp knife just behind the head).

Now I know options 2 and 3 require a strong stomach and some nerves.
So, I prefer option 1, when doing such things myself.

[Tubby Rower]

so where does one acquire clove oil?

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

so where does one acquire clove oil?


In the Netherlands you can get it at an apothecary...
Just mix the clove oil with the water, make sure it's well mixed. Add the fish. Narcotic effect starts, fish dies in a few minutes.

Other options are:
- benzocaïne
- 2-phenoxy-ethanol

Both also available at an apothecary.

[Tubby Rower]

thanks. I'll try to get some pictures of the second momma and hopefully soon I can get a picture of the first batch of fry

[failedreality]

Awesome news about the baby factory, lol

I remember my first yellows fry I actually moved mom to another tank and sold off the fry but then next time
I have some mean fish and they didnt last too long.. of course I wasn't that experienced back then either at creating more holes with rocks, caves, etc.. congrats..