Civivor 2 Spoiler and Discussion

[killercane]

For myself, DAVO and Happy Alex. Others beware!

I will wait for others to post their thoughts, I need to reread the rules regarding civ selection. Certainly we want a financial civ and an aggressive one.

[Davo]

You mean me rather than Javy, right?

[killercane]

Yes edited, sorry. Both 4 letter names, wasnt thinking. I dont know Javy either. So what are your thoughts on this?

[Davo]

No probs! I agree we definetly need an agressive civ, I think thats soemthing all of the teams are gonna go for. I'd like to try and get an early religion (i.e hinduism), and I also have a habit of building wonders, so I'm thinking maybe Ghandi for myself. Me as teh builder trype civ with eitehr or you happy_alex as an agressive civ, not sure what would be best for the third option though.

[Pastorius]

:hi Comrade

Good luck and welcome to CDZ

[Socrates]

Hey, Comrade Davo at CDZ, WELCOME !! [thumbsup] Make sure to spam at your convenience here, and enjoy the games and the atmosphere.

[Davo]

Hey guys, thanks for the welcome!

[killercane]

Oh here is the thread for those interested. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205898

It looks like we are going always war. So we need some troops early. It might be some time before the game gets off the ground though.

An interesting civ is Tokugawa, aggressive and protective. Thats a lot of free promotions! It would be nice to choke any nearby neighbors. We could even go with some kind of cheesy archer rush if the mapmaker or team decides that there is no metal guarantee. I dont know how locked teams will work, supposedly we could team together to superresearch archery or something. Mali might complement Tokugawa if we go this route. Skirmishers on hills defend well vs. axes.

If we went for early rush tactic, Im inclined to say that it would be pretty effective. Good coordination to hammer one at a time would be key.

[killercane]

We could also look into Egyptian war chariots, Shaka's Impis, and some of the other two movers early. However, with Normal speed, the tech pace could be fast enough to obsolete these quickly, thus requiring a Rome/Mongols or something to compensate with a UU a bit later. Thus a possible plan would be choke them hard, and then let the UU clean it all up.

[Davo]

BTW, have you sent happy_alex the link to this forum?

[killercane]

Yeah he said he would see us here on Feb. 28. I dont know where he is.

[killercane]

Here is a list of civ choices, for easy reference:
Zulu Aggressive/Expansive
Carthage Financial/Charismatic
Korea Financial/Protective
Ragnar Financial/Aggressive
Ottos Expansive/Organized
Celts Spiritual/Charismatic
Ramses Spiritual/Ind
Churchill Charismatic/Protective
Augustus Cre/Org
Stalin Aggressive/Ind

America George Washington Charismatic & Expansive
Franklin D. Roosevelt Industrious & Organized
Arabs Saladin Protective & Spiritual
Aztecs Montezuma Aggressive & Spirtual
China Mao Zedong Expansive & Protective
Qin Shi Huang Industrious & Protective
Egypt Hatshepsut Spirtual & Creative
England Victoria Financial & Imperialistic
Elizabeth Philosophical & Financial
France Louis XIV Creative & Industrious
Napoleon Charismatic & Organized
Germany Frederick Organized & Philosophical
Bismarck Expansive & Industrious
Greece Alexander Aggressive & Philosophical
Inca Huayna Capac Financial & Industrious
India Mahatma Gandhi Philosophical & Spiritual
Asoka Organized & Spiritual
Japan Tokugawa Aggressive & Protective
Mali Mansa Musa Financial & Spiritual
Mongolia Genghis Khan Aggressive & Imperialistic
Kublai Khan Aggressive & Creative
Persia Cyrus Charismatic & Imperialistic
Rome Julius Caesar Imperialistic & Organized
Russia Catherine Creative & Imperialistic
Peter Expansive & Philosophical
Spain Isabella Expansive & Spiritual

[Davo]

If Happy_Alex doesn't come here soon, i'll send him a PM on CFC. I agree one of the civs we should take should be Tokugawa. I'd still quite like to be Ghandi, so we can get Hinduism and thus have a religion from virtually the start.

[killercane]

Hmm well the civ selections should have some synergy between them. IE aggressive or builder types, which lead to corresponding early game strategies.

Do we share all starting techs from the beginning? If so, I see both aggressive and pacifist strats as effective. This all focuses on power research where we head straight line to somewhere.

Option 1

Choke heavy game I proposed before with all aggressives and early UUs. If we think we will be close to someone this works well.

Option 2

Builder start w/ religion. We can combine this with Oracle building, to take some nice tech triple fast since we are researching together. This gives us at least 27 commerce/turn since we have 3 8 commerce palaces rocking. Feudalism (longbows), CS, or even Machinery (crossbows) could be possible. Does anyone know dates of Oracle building for the other pitboss games to give us an idea of when this needs to be done? Im inclined to say Feudie would be nice for the longbowman (a beast this early) and the civic choices, fast workers and unit xp.

[killercane]

RE: builder start and some esoteric slingshot- Machinery and Cho Ko Nus if we pick China would take 1125 beakers, which would be 30 bpt and 38 turns for us to do. That is quite a long time.

[killercane]

Using Oracle for Metal Casting takes 50 turns for machinery, but is quite a bit safer I think. Maybe someone can figure out how long we have to build Oracle?

[killercane]

Davo you there? I have had several PMs w/ Alex on CFC but he still hasnt posted here. We need to get our civ selections in asap.

What is our game plan?

[killercane]

Ok I got a pm from ID, we need our civ selections in. I assume you want Ghandi, so I will try to make a selection for Happy Alex since he has not posted, and myself and send them on.

[Davo]

Hey, sorry I was away for a few days, IglooDude knew I was going to be away anyhows. I do want Ghandi, i'll PM him that.

[killercane]

Hey Davo, I told ID you wanted Ghandi, Alex said that he wanted Alexander, so I took Ramses so that we get all the starting techs.

So fast workers, Phalanxes, and War Chariots. How do we use these to our advantage?

Do we want Meditation and probably Buddhism first, so that we may get a religion? Working high commerce tiles and researching together we should be able to get it first.

Do we shoot for the Oracle? If we do, what do we want to take? CoL, Feudalism, Machinery, Metal Casting?

[happy_Alex]

Hi guys Alex reporting for duty!

[happy_Alex]

thing is regarding starting civs, we don't have any control over strarting locations right? So how do we go about second guessing which civ to choose?

[killercane]

Good to see you Alex. What do you think?

Relevant tech costs:

An. Husb.- 143
Monarchy- 429
BW- 171
Potts- 114
Meditation- 114
Priesthood- 85
Metal Casting- 643
Writing- 171

We could:

1) Speed to writing, chop out libraries
2) build Oracle and take something
3) build lots of troops to go hammer on someone, WCs, axes, and Phalanxes.
4) nab all religions to deny that entire column of civics to others (a poor choice IMO, too open for attack).
5) build Pyramids/Great Wall for Engineer points

A potential problem I see, once we know others civ choices, is that if we are not first in turn order we could lose out on the early meditation

[happy_Alex]

What I mean is shouldn't we decide once we see what resources we've been plopped down next to and our proximity to other civs. It's going to be a fractal map, so one of us might end up isolated on an island in which case there's no point building oodles of axemen, but instead concentrate on reseach...

[killercane]

Yes. We should exchange screens here of our start. If we are isolated we merely need to grow pop and science. The initial scout of Alex's will be important to see who we are close to. We can coordinate our starting warriors to uncover ground efficiently and not go back across where the others have explored.

So, if isolated, we head to writing quickly, chop libraries/granaries/settlers/workers.

If not isolated, and nearby someone (which we probably will be), what is our strategy? We wont know for 20 turns where our opponents are or if they are there, but with triple research we can have researched 4-5 techs at that point. So we still need an overall strategy to follow in order to do these techs toward some goal.

[happy_Alex]

intriguing...

so if we're near someone we need to destroy them quickly? or just harass them so their infrastructure fails?

[happy_Alex]

so we should base our initial 20 turn research around likely circumstance of 3 people playing on the map type? I can't exrapolate any further because I have no MP experience. e.g.

is the map same as a huge SP map?
is the distribution of resources the same as in single player?
how many barbs will there be?
does the map wrap (i think it does?)
is the distribution of resources random?

[killercane]

I dont know, I think resources are balanced. Probably best to ask in the main thread @ CFC.

[killercane]

Ok it looks like the game is afoot. I settled in place. Here is a screenshot. What are we researching first? I will probably NOT build a worker, probably a warrior first but it will depend on how we want to approach the game. My start is very nice with several flood plains and lots of food in general. I also have some nice forests to chop for a wonder or barracks. Are we peaceful or aggressive?

[killercane]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/killercane/20074243739_Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
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[happy_Alex]

I'll post my starting point here soon too. Any sounds from CD?

[killercane]

No I havent heard from El Davo. There are ~10 hours left on the timer, so if he doesnt check in I will set a password for him. The problem is we dont get his techs until he logs in (Mining and Mysticism). Shall we pursue Meditation first? On the way to a Feudalism slingshot (med-priesthood-writing-monarchy-feudalism)?

[Davo]

I signed in an played my turn this morning.

I'm currently going straight for Hinduism and building Stonehenge. Hopefully I should get both (The advantage of beign Ghandi) and I can build the Hindu great wonder and thus my religion should spread for me, giving me a great economic boost.

[killercane]

I will sign in and put science to Polytheism then.

[killercane]

Err I dont have contact with you CD. What could be the problem? I have contact with Alex and his techs but not you. Edit: Looks like we dont need screenshots. We have visibility of each others lands. Looks like Alex got a nice start too. Did you know you get extra food from the start by settling on those bananas Alex?

[Davo]

I don't get it, I can't see your lands when I log on.

[killercane]

Looks like we can at least see each other now [duelist]. Davo got the worst start, and is crazy far away. This start is pretty average, and sucks compared to the last one.

[happy_Alex]

Cool man...

CD is a long way away but that might be a good thing? gives more chance to expand.

Also, how do I change my leader name? I t comes up as my name name and I want to change it to my leader or CFC name...

I gues i need a warrior first.

[killercane]

When you sign on to Pitboss (where you input the IP address), there is also another slot where you can input your name in the top left corner.

Also if you set your science first turn, you gain a few beakers towards whatever you are researching (Polytheism in this case). If you dont, you lose these ghost beakers. That is per the technology article on CFC, I dont know the inner workings there.

[happy_Alex]

Ok, thats all sorted then. Let's kick some arse... woohoo... (I had an American moment :-) )

[Davo]

Right, game is actually up now. So i'm going with the orginal plan - straight for hinduism. In my capital i'm gonna build a warrior for defense and then build stonehenge. Me and alex are near to each other, killcane is a bit further away though.

[happy_Alex]

umm shuld we go for the same tec?

[happy_Alex]

Seems to be alot of scouts. If we're quick enough can we capture someones city before they build a warrior??

[Davo]

Everyone is going to be starting with scouts I think, due to sharing of techs pretty much meaning everyone is going to start with hunting and thus start with a scout.

And yeah all go for same tech, we should get hinduism earluer and spread our religion!

[killercane]

I settled in place as well. I pretty much have to have bronze working next, with so many forests. Im set to produce a warrior in 5 turns, then a worker. I kind of thought we would be researching faster than we are (Poly in 9 turns). Should I chop the Oracle? If so what to take with it?

[Davo]

Defo chop the oracle. Any free tech is better than no free tech!

[happy_Alex]

bronze working? Iron working? I was given sailing when i found my goody hut. What did you guys get?

[killercane]

I received a map of "Miller Park" which is George OP I think. It seems Darkness' group is in between me and you guys.

[Davo]

I got a map from the first hut, and 46 gold from the second.

[happy_Alex]

COOL free tec! have the huts been designed so every team gets the same or are they random

[killercane]

The huts are random.

I think we should do bronze working next. It is early for archery and we need slavery/forest chops/copper. To need archers, the others must research AH/Bronze, connect the resource if its in their borders, build the units, and then send them our way. This would take 35 turns at least.

But we need a team plan. Do we want to divide up research? Do we want to try to get Feudalism (fast workers/longbows/extra xp) from the Oracle or something else?

[happy_Alex]

Hmmm...

wat if they have researched Bronze working first?

[killercane]

Some probably did. That will make it cheaper for us once they get it (I think Poly is cheaper than bronze right?).

[Davo]

Do you guys want me to switch to bronze working? Archery is good for me becuase i'm on a hill so any archers in my city would most likely defeat an axeman. But I can switch if u want.

[killercane]

I dont know, I think so. Or 2 people could work on Bronze and the other on Priesthood. I really think the Feudalism slingshot will be huge. We can just pillage Darkness' group back to the stone age with Longbows, they will be almost unkillable in jungle/forest/hills.

[killercane]

I have Stone for my second city if there is some food up there. Can anyone say Pyramids/Hanging Gardens/Great Wall?

[Davo]

Longbowman require archery thouygh, so I may as well stick with it.

[killercane]

That is a good point, but we can get archery post Feudalism. This would save us a couple of turns on pulling the thing off, since the Oracle will be rigged to complete on the same turn as the research of Writing. The tech path would be BW-Priesthood-Monarchy and then Writing last, as some of the others will have writing by then and it will be cheaper to research.

But archers will be nice for safety, and maybe protect from me getting killed as I am so far away and surrounded by others. It is your call; do you think we can get there in time to pull off the Feud slingshot? Alex?

Edit: I think you are right Davo. Archers will be needed before we can research monarchy, it is many hundreds of beakers and will take a long time.

[Davo]

Alex reckons it will be good to get bronze working quicker to chop the oracle which is good point, so i was planning on switching to it next time I log in..I could then continiue archery afterwards?

[happy_Alex]

I think so yes, archery is going to be very handy but we could do with BW for chopping stuff...

[happy_Alex]

Guys, we need to have a little thinky-poos about what we're researching next. I have some copper nearby though I need to build another city near it. Question is do we automatically share resources KC? If we don't have axes for defense won't we need achery in case someone sends some axes ourway. BTW I'm still for the oracle slingshot KC

[killercane]

I dont think we share resources unless cities are connected, and then I dont know if we can all share the same resource or not, maybe so.

I will work on Priesthood for a bit, while you guys finish archery. Then we can finish Priesthood together and start on Monarchy. I will probably chop out another worker sometime, and prechop all the wood around so that the Oracle is set up.

[happy_Alex]

excellent plan matey..... !

[killercane]

Alex you need to whip that archer lest you will be dead next turn! Or if you cant whip a warrior and then some more!

Edit: I cant tell if you are in slavery, but if you are not I think you can move that warrior down SE to the dye. I believe he cannot kill your warrior and then take the empty city in the same turn. So move warrior, revolt this turn, and then log in next turn and whip before he can attack!

[happy_Alex]

too late :-(

[happy_Alex]

What is DMs ?

[killercane]

A double move. You take your turn with say 10 hours left on the timer. Another player then takes his or her turn with 5 hours left. When the timer turns over to a new turn, the other player then takes another turn without you having a chance to react.

[Davo]

I'm having trouble deciding where to place my second city. Hopefully Azza's pesky chariot will go and fight shanes warriors and give me an oppurtunity to get a settler and an archer to one of thos ehills to the north.

[killercane]

Looks like that chariot is gone? Thanks for taking my moves Davo!

[Davo]

No probs! I hope I did good in the other game for you, captured chardonnay!

[killercane]

Yes indeed! More progress than I had made in a couple hundred years :).

[Davo]

I'm screwed, azza killed my settler, my chances of getting a 2nd city are basically zero at the moment.

[killercane]

How did that happen? You want me to build a city north of me by that copper and gift it to you? I logged in but the settler had already moved.

[killercane]

Some pics for lurkers. One is from a few turns ago when I double moved Darkness and destroyed his city. I was kind of troubled to do so, I had hoped that he would just move his axe back into the town, but when he didnt I felt like I had to destroy it to be fair to my teammate (since I will be dead probably soon fighting 2 civs).


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/killercane/200772182612_Civ4ScreenShot0049.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/killercane/200772182636_Civ4ScreenShot0047.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/killercane/200772182656_Civ4ScreenShot0050.jpg
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[killercane]

There are currently 5 skirmishers, an archer, and an axe in my territory. My cities are unassailable at the moment, but they can starve me down and eventually kill me unless I get axes connected to the capital and we get Feudalism from the Oracle, both of which will require some luck. The good thing is all the forest around my capital has been cleared. Any ideas from lurkers on how to get Darkness and Rhymes off my back? It seems like they would go find someone else to bother.

@ Davo: Azzaman and Emperor are the real threat. Emperors capital looks to be coastal, and my original plan was to settle the copper city on the coast to whip a couple of galleys and try to eliminate him with 4 units on his capital via a double move. Do you think we can goad Darkness' group into doing that for us and how would we be able to send them that message?

[Davo]

I'm not really sure how to play it at the moment. I'm thinking of just siting back and building defensive units for awhile (as i'm on a hill as well) and letting everyone else kick the crap out of each other. I'm worries bout you though, your territory is swarmnign with the enemy at the moment.

[killercane]

Indeed the arrival of ID and Robboo is making it a bit tougher to build the Oracle, a settler, and troops too! I just need to kill enough units to get those last two prechopped forests done though, and the Oracle is ours. Hopefully we can have writing by then. You want to switch to commerce tiles so we can get it in soon?

You can probably whip the barracks out, and then a couple archers to kill Azzamans chariot. 3 vs. 1 should do the job and give you some breathing room. If you can get those horses settled, maybe you can gift me the city so as I can put some war chariots out? I cant believe I just now thought of that idea. Maybe then we can hit Shaneragnar on the backside. Or maybe I can send an axe and a worker ALL the way across to you.

[mauer]

KC, answer some dadgum PM's or IM's will ya. Regarding the fast workers. You think I could handle a few turns of serfdom so I can road my cities and chop those many many many forest? I could chop out some LB's and a settler. Seems like my only advantage right now would be to use those forest hammers for something useful rather than keeping them for enemy hangouts. Fast worker and double speed with serfdom would be nice eh? Also, can one of my workers do tile improvements in your territory? I've never played teams before, so I have no clue.

[killercane]

I dont know, I think they can do improvements easily in other territories. Yeah serfdom is probably good for you right now. We both need cottages. Im farting around with this gay spot for a city in the east. I had been wanting a spot to build galleys from, this is as bad a spot as it gets, but its on the water.

My plan:

Build two galleys & 4 axes/cover LBs, take that city of Darkness' on the coast. Burn it.

Build a further 2-4 LBs, take the gems city, burn.

Get cats, then coordinate an assault on their capitals while Robboo?ID/Shaneragnar fight Azzamand and Emperor

Get strong, consolidate, and then kick ass.

[mauer]

Sounds good. As soon as that unit in the southern city is built, I'll try and get a worker, whip if I must, to get up there and get you some improvements done, and hopefully build a road in between.